[palan]

Splat, on 20 May 2011 - 11:24 AM, said:

I want George to register here, make one epic post like only he can, and then leave us all pwned and confused.

Maybe hes already registered, if yes probably under different name?

[X-Vector]

MrBlackCat, on 20 May 2011 - 05:51 AM, said:

We reasonably know that he made Duke Nukem 3D and much of Duke Nukem Forever is all I mean.

The only thing I reasonably know is that this statement is nonsensical.

George Broussard didn't make Duke Nukem 3D, it was a collaborative effort that I've seen described by even the man himself as a bit of a lucky accident (meaning that everything just fell into place near the end of development).
As for DNF, that project has had such a long and laboured history that we'll probably never know who exactly created what portion of the game (the deprecated material that was built on, redone or thrown out still contributed in one way or another).

[MrBlackCat]

X-Vector, on 20 May 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:

The only thing I reasonably know is that this statement is nonsensical.

George Broussard didn't make Duke Nukem 3D, it was a collaborative effort that I've seen described by even the man himself as a bit of a lucky accident (meaning that everything just fell into place near the end of development).
As for DNF, that project has had such a long and laboured history that we'll probably never know who exactly created what portion of the game (the deprecated material that was built on, redone or thrown out still contributed in one way or another).

Pardon my statements accuracy for being below your standards... this is the reason I get crap for writing long posts. I am not skilled at compression without loss of meaning.

Let me start over...

I will re-state what I typed with a bit more precision or in a way maybe you can understand or have more difficulty taking it from context.
=================
As I was saying... If I met George B. I would not attack him for his failures relative to Duke Nukem Forever that I don't know the details of. That would be rude. If you choose to attack others based on your own speculations, that is your choice. I just stated I would not, and why.

It is reasonable for myself and other members of this forum to believe that George Broussard played a substantial role in the quality of the game Duke Nukem 3D.
It is reasonable for myself and other members of this forum to believe George Broussard was "in charge" or is given credit from multiple sources for being "in charge" of Duke Nukem 3D.

Credit where credit is due...
George Broussards name is in the credits of the dozens of Duke Nukem games and such that I own as a Project Leader/Director and other primary titles. I don't have a practical means of challenging that and to act like "pics or it didn't happen" on your part with your condescending statements when you most likely know what I was talking about is irritating. If the boxes, instructions and other printed materials that state George Broussard was the main person over the release of Duke Nukem 3D isn't enough for you, that is fine. Leave me alone about it though.

I know "who" made Duke Nukem or I know at least the same information as you and anyone else outside of 3D Realms can know...
I never said I believe he acted alone... My statement that I would congratulate George B for his accomplishments doesn't indicate in any way I believe he acted alone. I know of all the members of the team and what their roles were as most any neurotic PhaN BoY should.
I would gladly shake the hand of any of the developers and congratulate them for their efforts no matter what their role was.

There are numerous interviews, videos and text with multiple people that have worked with George Broussard giving him a great deal of credit for really making the Duke Nukem 3D Duke as awesome as he is.

So again... I am saying I would choose not to attack George Broussard for things I don't why happened based on only knowing an negative end result of running out of money. I am reasonably certain that he is credited a great deal with Duke Nukem 3D...

My post logically was simple... People are attacking George Broussard and even threating him based on reasons they do not have sound evidence for. I think that is rude. I am allowed to think that. You made it personal.
I do have sound evidence that George Broussard was not only involved in Duke Nukem 3D, but played a major role insuring its quality.

Is that good enough and/or clear enough for you X-Vector? If not, let me know and I will try again.
================

Moving on...

Descent, on 20 May 2011 - 08:10 AM, said:

I've read Masters of Doom at least five times, as well as numerous old articles from when he was in his prime, and I posted on his message board for years.

There is something majorly wrong with Romero. I don't know what it is but I really think he has borderline personality disorder.

I don't think GB has a giant ego. He's just a really shitty project manager. I personally wouldn't compare the two.

Me too! I love that book! That was so interesting to me. I read it again about once a year just to get refresher.

I have to admit I get the feeling there is something odd about Romero... but he is smart and driven, so I really can't form an opinion of him that complex, but I know what you mean.

GB... I really do think George Broussard has a big ego, but in fairness I have never met him. But it was built out of confidence I believe. I also believe it turned into over-confidence maybe... arrogance. Jury is out.

Mikko_Sandt, on 20 May 2011 - 11:31 AM, said:

I too have read the book and read plenty of Romero's blog posts, forum posts, tweets etc. I think he's just passionate about what he does.

I too have read and typed occasionally with Romero since DooM basically. My original desire was to be a 3D game Programmer after I saw Wolfenstein 3D. I contacted Romero on how to do that and he was kind enough to give me information on how to go about it in multiple emails.
One thing I notice about Romero is he really cares about his past... he like to reminisce about the old days and keeps things from his past etc. The effective opposite of John Carmack. Remember "By the time they were finished with DooM, Carmack was already disgusted with the technology..." talking about the 3D Engine.

MrBlackCat

[Martin]

Mr.Deviance, on 18 May 2011 - 02:35 PM, said:

The fact that you don't know an OMF 2097 character, proves that you are a noob kid or a nongamer.

I've been gaming for over 20 years, have had all sorts of systems and all sorts of games. I have never heard of 'OMF 2097'. A quick Google reveals that it's some random little PC one-on-one fighting game from 1994. Therefore, there is absolutely no reason why anybody should remember or care about that game. Your chastising him for not knowing of it was pretty funny. One-on-one fighters for MS-DOS were utter shit. You only played those in lieu of having a system which could play Street Fighter II or the most recent variant thereof. You might have upgraded your RAM or something so that DOS SFII would run, but it was a crappy version.

[Mad Max RW]

Hey, my DOS version of Mortal Kombat was sweet with a joystick. It was as good as the arcade and way better than the alternative Sega Genesis and SNES versions (both censored unless you knew the abacabb code for Genesis).

[Luther Blissett]

Martin, on 20 May 2011 - 05:18 PM, said:

I've been gaming for over 20 years, have had all sorts of systems and all sorts of games. I have never heard of 'OMF 2097'. A quick Google reveals that it's some random little PC one-on-one fighting game from 1994. Therefore, there is absolutely no reason why anybody should remember or care about that game. Your chastising him for not knowing of it was pretty funny. One-on-one fighters for MS-DOS were utter shit. You only played those in lieu of having a system which could play Street Fighter II or the most recent variant thereof. You might have upgraded your RAM or something so that DOS SFII would run, but it was a crappy version.

DOS SFII , are you JOKING? That thing was GARBAGE. I went to the arcades to play SFII. PC SSF2T(X) looked better but it sucked anyway since it had a different screensize, animations were cut ( ENTIRE POKES gone)...you must be insane.

But i understand where you re coming from, and yes, OMF 2097 was something i had at home when i couldn't get to the arcade or simply didn't feel like spending more quarters;).

MK were a lot better on PC compared to SF , but they had their share of discrepancies with their original versions too. It took arcade emulation to get things going on the PC, so OMF2097 was pretty much king of the hill "legally" on PC for some time.

[Inspector Lagomorf]

Luther Blissett, on 20 May 2011 - 09:50 PM, said:

DOS SFII , are you JOKING? That thing was GARBAGE. I went to the arcades to play SFII. PC SSF2T(X) looked better but it sucked anyway since it had a different screensize, animations were cut ( ENTIRE POKES gone)...you must be insane.

Hence why he said:

Quote

but it was a crappy version.

Though I will admit that the CD-ROM version of SSF2T had a great soundtrack.

There's no special talent that George Broussard has as far as I can tell, even if he has supervised multiple Apogee and 3D Realms projects. He probably never really visualized the Duke Nukem franchise becoming as immense as it is today, so it's understandable he would become burned out.

[Jeff]

I thought George would be furious when he had to give up a game that he worked on for 12 years. I remember when 3D Realms was "shut down" in 2009, that he was really pissed.

[X-Vector]

MrBlackCat, on 20 May 2011 - 04:45 PM, said:

Credit where credit is due...

No argument there.

Quote

So again... I am saying I would choose not to attack George Broussard for things I don't why happened based on only knowing an negative end result of running out of money.

First off, I have been critical of GB for a while now, but "attacking" is a strong term, especially in regards to my post in this particular thread.
Secondly, running out of money was a symptom of the problem, not the cause.

Quote

My post logically was simple... People are attacking George Broussard and even threating him based on reasons they do not have sound evidence for. I think that is rude. I am allowed to think that. You made it personal.

Calling a specific statement nonsensical is not "making it personal".

Quote

I do have sound evidence that George Broussard was not only involved in Duke Nukem 3D, but played a major role insuring its quality.

That's different from stating he made the game, in the context of your post.
Particularly in those days with a much smaller development team than is usual today, the whole core group was of major importance for the end result (not just the game, but the Build engine as well).

Quote

Is that good enough and/or clear enough for you X-Vector? If not, let me know and I will try again.

My biggest problem is with the double standard in your argument; GB should be praised for producing Duke Nukem 3D, but not criticised for being responsible for the fate of DNF (as a 3DR game) as its project lead.
That's just not something I can get my hands together for.

[Kristian Joensen]

"Secondly, running out of money was a symptom of the problem, not the cause."

Well yes the financial problems towards the end were a symptom of the problems that led to the long dev time, but those problems were NOT still present in the production of DNF. Had 3DR had the necessary money, DNF would have shipped about a year ago.

Edit:

"My biggest problem is with the double standard in your argument; GB should be praised for producing Duke Nukem 3D, but not criticised for being responsible for the fate of DNF (as a 3DR game) as its project lead."

Double standards are bad either way, doing the opposite and not crediting him for Duke3D but blaming him for DNF is just as blameworthy.

[Ronin]

The best thing GB ever did was sell Gearbox the Duke IP, at least now duke will have a chance to grow, it would have really pissed me off if Duke disappeared forever after the 3DR shutdown. Having said that I have very little respect for GB for the arrogant way he ignored the fans for years, the same people who made him rich and even fatter.

[zwieback]

he did not ignore the fans. actually i think there is A LOT in the game that has been proposed by fans throughout the years. For example the complete beginning of the game.
if you read the history of dnf's dev. cycle, i think it is obvious why there was that boring annoying media blackout.

[MrBlackCat]

X-Vector, on 21 May 2011 - 04:13 AM, said:

First off, I have been critical of GB for a while now, but "attacking" is a strong term, especially in regards to my post in this particular thread.

If this statement was in any way related to you, that would be a valid statement.
I will show both sides.
I went back and got it...
Here is my quote

MrBlackCat said:

As I was saying... If I met George B. I would not attack him for his failures relative to Duke Nukem Forever that I don't know the details of. That would be rude. If you choose to attack others based on your own speculations, that is your choice. I just stated I would not, and why.

I can see why you might think I meant "you" literally, but this is not the case... I should have stated it "if people" rather than "if you" It wasn't about you, X-Vector in this instance. Sorry that wasn't clear. That is my inaccuracy... responsibility taken.
"You" in the English language can represent both "the objective individual" and "the reader" is my point. I do not expect everyone, especially people outside the US (and some within) to have this realization.

However... my quote above was posted in the context of re-stating what I typed BEFORE your condescending reply. Before you were "involved" anyway. That is manipulation of context on your part. As a re-wording of a post before you were involved, for you to take it as being directed at you is a pretty high level twist on your part. Accident or on purpose I am unable to determine.

X-Vector said:

Secondly, running out of money was a symptom of the problem, not the cause.

Again, if you want to play the "precision of statement" game with me, you will lose that game, and I don't intend to spend the small amount of time here on the forum helping you understand English and language anyway. And the posts length will be impractical and of little benefit to the forum.
It is ok to understand what people mean... we have to do it every day in conversation to survive.
Ever see this?
"A research team proceeded toward the apex of a natural geologic protuberance, the purpose of their expedition being the procurement of a sample of fluid hydride of oxygen in a vessel, the exact size of which was unspecified. One member of the team precipitously descended, sustaining severe damage to the upper cranial portion of his anatomical structure; subsequently the second member of the team performed a self-rotational translation oriented in the direction taken by the first team member."

This is how Jack and Jill rhyme is modified to sound more accurate. It is more accurate, but it isn't necessary. It is ok to know what people mean. Most of the people here who really push precision is for the purpose of irritation, not to improve precision for the benefit of the forum.

The appropriate response if you don't understand is to ask what someone means with more precision, not "assume you know what they mean first, figure out you don't understand later." That is the core concept of my original post actually. You DO NOT KNOW what happened with George Broussard and the development of DNF. If you want to attack him, or "not put your hands together" for him or whatever, that is YOUR business, I stated why I would not do these things if I met him on the street... and why.

If you want to play the literal game:
Have you never praised anyone for anything you didn't see them do? A painter for his painting, a craftsman for his chair, or anything else?
You do this every day, because it is reasonable for you to assume they "made it". When people say "I built my house" do you think that means they literally built it with their hands? When people say "I built my PC" do you believe for a second they have a wave soldering machine and boxes full of electronic components? Of COURSE you don't. But there is nothing wrong or inaccurate when I say "Nice PC, you did a good job" to someone who "made" their computer. We all "know" what "made" means... if you don't then that is your problem. You are no dummy, you do know what I mean in my above statements.
It is reasonable for me to believe George Broussard "made" Duke Nukem 3D as did ALL the members of the team. And stating it like that is also reasonable... which makes your response to my post nit-picky and unreasonable.

Have you never said "My company" at a company you work for? It isn't literally your company you own, and people who aren't being difficult to get along with understand this. Figure of speech. There are reasonable mannerisms in every day conversation that are wrong at worst and inaccurate at best, but "normal".

X-Vector said:

Calling a specific statement nonsensical is not "making it personal".

Incorrect. The statements of my choices in the "If I met George Broussard" scenario had nothing to do with you. This is a personal attack though mild.

X-Vector said:

That's different from stating he made the game, in the context of your post.

If it was my first post, it would be reasonable for you to assume I did know Georges role. You know otherwise, therefore your statement was unreasonable in my opinion.

X-Vector said:

Particularly in those days with a much smaller development team than is usual today, the whole core group was of major importance for the end result (not just the game, but the Build engine as well).

Are you telling me this because you assume I don't know this? George Broussard was known as the Shit Filter for a reason. While not the inventor, he played the biggest role in what we saw as an end result in my opinion. Ken Silverman did write the Build Engine, I have typed with him, he is great, I know reasonably he made the Build Engine.
So yes, maybe he technically played the largest role of all.

Here is how I see it... George made Duke Nukem 3D. Ken Silverman made Duke Nukem 3D. and so on... I would congratulate any of them, if I met them on the street. Would it go like this? "Hey George Broussard, I thank you greatly as a fan of Duke Nukem 3D, but since you failed to get us Duke Nukem Forever, screw you." No... that would be rude and I doubt most here would ever do that. THAT is my point, no matter how you might focus on the meaning of words and so on.

X-Vector said:

My biggest problem is with the double standard in your argument; GB should be praised for producing Duke Nukem 3D, but not criticised for being responsible for the fate of DNF (as a 3DR game) as its project lead.

In general, I try not to criticize someone for something I don't know the reasons for.
It isn't a double standard. If I said that, it could be a possible argument. I was warning against criticizing George Broussard for things you don't know about... based on just an end result. Just general logic.

Do you need scenarios? There are people murdered for instance that never go to jail because there are "reasons" you don't know about that totally justify it. It isn't as simple as "They killed this person, they admit it, so we know as a fact, so they should be in jail." The rest of the story was that the person killed had already tortured three family members and started on her and he got lucky and killed him in the act of protecting herself. See? You don't know the whole story. Just like in this case. You (most here) don't know WHY the end result happened. That is my point.

Why attack someone for something you don't know happened is basically my point... see, there is that word "attack" again I keep using. Seems like you never said anything about attacking George Broussard, right? Seems like you have no reason to concern yourself with my posts to start with because I obviously never mentioned "not putting your hands together".

X-Vector said:

That's just not something I can get my hands together for.

Who said anything about getting hands together? I just said I wouldn't attack him for something that I don't know why happened. I don't appreciate you twisting stuff around like this intentionally or not.

Your interpretation of what I said is inaccurate... which is the source of the issue you seem to be having here.
I stated it clearly above, if you don't get it, I don't really think you can at this point. English isn't your first language and I will try to believe that is the issue as opposed to you just being intentionally irritating.

I really don't know "how you got into this" so to speak anyway... I never referenced your posts relative to attacking George B and I was stating my view of how I would react and why I would choose to react to meeting George Broussard. You repeatedly focus on "inaccuracies" in my posts based on your interpretations from my perspective in the form of "what I meant".

In the future, if you wish to discuss something, don't twist the idea, argue your version of it.

One last thing... It is MY opinion that the anti-George Broussard movement are conceptually witch burnings... nothing more. BUT I never said you can't have that view. Burn away! It's legal on forums. I stated my view of choosing NOT to participate in the witch burnings and why. It seems pretty clear that you just don't like my view as opposed to there actually being any flaws in the core concept.

I didn't have time to debug the above... consider it an early Beta. Got to work for a while.

MrBlackCat

[Sinisterambo]

I had a huge rant in 07 on the 3DR forums about George, since then i have always defended him. I got really angry, the thread was deleted before anyone could post in it, Joe has never liked me since and George won't answer any of my questions or reply to anything I send him on facebook, not that we're friends on it. It was because a couple of years earlier, Joe had hinted at a near beta stage. I was patient then either me or someone else mentioned the beta and Joe said it was no where near beta stage. This of course made me angry and i ranted. Couldn't help it. Yeah but think of it this way, if it wasn't for George, we probably wouldn't have Duke 3D being as awesome as it was. All he wanted was to give us a good enough sequel, but realised he couldn't do it and that's why his is a recluse now.

[Stewox]

i think he's working out to get his weight back to 1997

[Yatta]

Sinisterambo, on 21 May 2011 - 11:03 AM, said:

I had a huge rant in 07 on the 3DR forums about George, since then i have always defended him. I got really angry, the thread was deleted before anyone could post in it, Joe has never liked me since and George won't answer any of my questions or reply to anything I send him on facebook, not that we're friends on it

Joe will automatically dislike you if you criticize George. The guy hates my guts.

[Mr.Deviance]

Yatta, on 21 May 2011 - 01:09 PM, said:

Joe will automatically dislike you if you criticize George. The guy hates my guts.

Joe banned my entire isp ip range 1 year ago after I said that George is a failure.
My isp happened to be the biggest one in my country with millions of users and at least a few hundred thousands in the capital where I live.
I've seen videos made against Joe Siegler where some people say that he pretty much was the guy that was refilling the coke machines at 3drealms ever since he got hired.
I initially took that with a grain of salt since I didn't come in direct conflict with him before while I was at 3drealms but now after some years of seeing him act online and seeing an interview with him, I am sure that people were not talking shit when they said he is a tolerated douchebag.

[bullerbullerseven]

Or not...

[Mr.Deviance]

Jhect, on 21 May 2011 - 03:07 PM, said:

Or not...

Or Yes...

[bullerbullerseven]

Darn it, i would downvote you if i could.

[Mr.Deviance]

Jhect, on 21 May 2011 - 03:15 PM, said:

Darn it, i would downvote you if i could.

I know you would. I noticed how you stalk me and down vote me each time you get the chance, even when I post neutral things.
If you are going to abuse the rating system and rate me down each time I post, no matter what I say in that post, then you should expect more negative points added to your current ones.

[Sinisterambo]

Stewox, on 21 May 2011 - 12:36 PM, said:

i think he's working out to get his weight back to 1997

joke removed out of respect for George

[zwieback]

you know, that voting thing is meant to be used like this:

useful post (+) or a destructive post (-).

It's not meant like facebook "i like" and "dislike"

[Hank]

Off-topic
It's true, someone pointed this out before. Yatta's title says Banned. Why? Is Joe that powerful, or has Yatta locked himself out of the forum? I'll click one green. It's funny.

[Mr.Deviance]

zwieback, on 22 May 2011 - 07:13 AM, said:

you know, that voting thing is meant to be used like this:

useful post (+) or a destructive post (-).

It's not meant like facebook "i like" and "dislike"

Well then I seem have a lot of facebook fans rating me then

[zwieback]

that was very useful +1

[Kathy]

Jeff, on 20 May 2011 - 10:28 PM, said:

I thought George would be furious when he had to give up a game that he worked on for 12 years.

And the guy he should have been furious was in the mirror. Working on one video game at a time as a creative and financial director for 12 years is clearly states how "well" he managed it. It's a miracle it lasted that long.