[Master O]

Does Duke Nukem 3D have its own equivalent of the Cacowards? (For those of you unfamiliar with the Cacowards: https://www.doomworld.com/cacowards/)

I only ask because I am not very familiar with what Duke 3D fans consider the all time classic custom levels. At least with Doom, you have something like the Cacowards or the https://www.doomworl...years/bestwads/ page.

[Micky C]

Not to my knowledge. There aren't enough maps released on a consistent basis to justify that sort of thing, not to mention that 'best' is incredibly subjective. The CGS forums had a 'mapper of the month' for a few years, but that closed a while ago: http://www.scent-88.com/mom/mom.php

[Forge]

Duke Espana had an annual map contest, but the participation has been pretty thin over the last few years.

http://www.dukespana..._build_2017.php

[Ninety-Six]

Yeah, unfortunately the best you can do is ask the community in general what the best maps and mods are. We'll be happy to tell but there's no semblance of even a pretend "official" list of good stuff that must be played. And across a lot of the answers you'll see a lot of repeaters, so I suppose those would probably qualify as the best there is to offer.

Unfortunately we're a bit too small to have an annual top ten like the Cacowards.

[Phredreeke]

I would suggest expanding the scope to include all Build-based games (though even then the selection would be quite thin)

Maybe just do an one-off event to raise interest and draw in new people? Then you wouldn't have to limit it to just a single year's releases.

[Master O]

Ninety-Six, on 28 July 2018 - 03:54 AM, said:

Yeah, unfortunately the best you can do is ask the community in general what the best maps and mods are. We'll be happy to tell but there's no semblance of even a pretend "official" list of good stuff that must be played. And across a lot of the answers you'll see a lot of repeaters, so I suppose those would probably qualify as the best there is to offer.

Unfortunately we're a bit too small to have an annual top ten like the Cacowards.

That's surprising that there's no definitive list of classic Duke 3D custom maps, especially given Duke 3D's status as one of the early 1990s greatest FPSes (after Doom, of course... )

[Phredreeke]

I think this would be your best shot right now.

http://msdn.duke4.net/hot.php

[Maisth]

I would love to see something like this in Duke4net, problem is there's not much maps being made as of right now.

[Micky C]

Phredreeke, on 28 July 2018 - 07:33 AM, said:

I think this would be your best shot right now.

http://msdn.duke4.net/hot.php

I'd be careful to be more specific here. Most maps these days go to the "hot" section with scores of 85 or higher, however maps around the 85 mark are not on par with say, 97+. It would be more accurate to say the "maps" page is the "dud" page.

However, what that page is good for is that it allows you to sort the maps according to score by clicking the headings, so you can easily see the top rated maps.

One thing to be careful of is that the standards for map scores has probably changed over the years. For example, the level of detail in maps increased dramatically from 1996-2011 (In 2011 Gambini released "It Lives", which was so incredibly detailed that half the mappers went "screw it, I'm not even going to try to match those visuals, and focus on other areas instead"). This means that a highly rated map from an earlier error would probably have at least a slightly lower rating than it would today. Not to mention that some maps would have gotten bonus points for introducing cool new effects. While those maps are historic and influential, chances are there are there have been maps since then that used the effect better, removing the need to play the original except for historical curiosity.
This 'time-score-shift' would apply to some maps more than others; a lot of the best maps from up to 15 years ago still look pretty great today, and were ahead of their time. This was because they focused on what makes a level look fundamentally good, such as shading, architecture, consistent texturing, as opposed to putting in lots of small, intricate, but ultimately superfluous details.

[Danukem]

Micky C, on 28 July 2018 - 05:09 PM, said:

Gambini released "It Lives", which was so incredibly detailed that half the mappers went "screw it, I'm not even going to try to match those visuals, and focus on other areas instead").

That's an amazing map, but I don't think it has anything to do with people changing their mapping styles.

[Micky C]

Trooper Dan, on 28 July 2018 - 05:48 PM, said:

That's an amazing map, but I don't think it has anything to do with people changing their mapping styles.

I definitely exaggerated that bit. Still, the majority of maps these days do not strive for uber detail. 2011 was IMO around peak detail level, and things wound down after that. It's probably more that people realized that you can make pretty good looking levels without putting insane amounts of time into them, and of course everyone is so busy these days that this appeals to people.

[oasiz]

I think the issue with Duke mapping is that it's very hard to get a balance of nerdy buildporn and not having it feel like an usermap. New visuals often can end up being a bit clunky one-off effects that can be cool but feel a bit disconnected from the rest of the experience.
It's a very fine line here. Not to mention that bundling textures/code/music is still not as accepted/common as it would be for a doom wad. There is only so much you can do before the ideas start to repeat themselves.

This is part of the reason why effects / etc.. are so flexible and customizable in maiden, stuff like "queen of the hill" is actually nothing more than a level counter (with killcount) that fires off a lotag at the start of the round and ALL (spawns/timing/etc..) is handled with map effects. There must be like close to 1000 effect sprites that form the 15 rounds. All mapper adjustable. Although current I am the only one being able to work through what must be around 3-4 levels deep spawn multiplexing/automating trigger system
I hope that IM will inspire duke mappers to give it a go, I can only say that it's a joy to map for and even I constantly discovering new stuff I never thought could be done.

[Sanek]

Micky C, on 29 July 2018 - 02:20 AM, said:

I definitely exaggerated that bit. Still, the majority of maps these days do not strive for uber detail. 2011 was IMO around peak detail level, and things wound down after that. It's probably more that people realized that you can make pretty good looking levels without putting insane amounts of time into them, and of course everyone is so busy these days that this appeals to people.

I must add that even though a person can make a map like It Lives, it'll not have the same impact as Gambini's masterpiece. We know that it's possible to make a map like this, achieve such a high level of detail. But people often forget that It Lives also features very cool tricks and all kinds of special effects! So instead of trying to duplicate something, it'll be better to concentrate on what really matters - the gameplay.

[Ninety-Six]

Master O, on 28 July 2018 - 06:11 AM, said:

That's surprising that there's no definitive list of classic Duke 3D custom maps, especially given Duke 3D's status as one of the early 1990s greatest FPSes (after Doom, of course... )

For the most part, the "best" (as in the stuff that most gets brought up as "must-plays" when asked) of the fan content tends to be TCs and full custom episodes. This is much in the same way that most Cacoward winners are megawads.

Unfortunately, user maps, much like single-level PWADs, tend to be more overlooked than those despite, or perhaps because of, how much more numerous they are.


That being said, we're so small these days, and new content is hard to come by, that we tend to take what we get. That's not to say we won't look for quality, but at least from what I've seen, there's a lot less cases of user maps getting released and then never played or given a chance by anyone.



To be honest I'm not entirely sure why we're small. Being smaller than Doom is understandable, but I'm still surprised that we're smaller than the Half-Life community despite that game coming later.

Of course being small does have a few advantages...

[Micky C]

I think a big part of it was the sudden shutdown of Dukeworld or whatever website was used to host completed and WIP content back in the day. Apparently a lot of people lost content they were working on, never bothered to make more, and so didn't stay with the community.

I also gather the Doom level editors are easier to get into for people who have never mapped before, which is critical for bringing new blood into the community to replace the old. Given that Doom mapping is also faster, it's the logical choice for those who want to make a basic doom era-inspired game for minimal effort. Although, as Ion Maiden will hopefully show, eduke32 is ultimately a lot more flexible and customizable in terms of its scripting language and level effects.

[NNC]

What particularly interesting is that there were no community projects to make something similar to Doom's "The way ID did" (if I remember the correct title). Fernando Marquez' episodes are the closest, but I think they ended up a little half baked, and largely inferior to the originals (unlike the ID episodes).

I really miss maps that were built in the original 3DRealms style. There are some, but even them have those typical user level elements I don't like (ie. fake doors, the overusage of boring tropes like strippers etc.) The highly detailed stuff like ADG06, Apocollapse, It Lives etc. don't have the authentic Duke aesthetic, and usually these kind of maps don't age too well (at least IMHO).

Actually Ion Maiden's preview campaign (I consider it as a part of the D3D culture), and Duke Forever 2013 (and from old ones the LRWB 2nd episode) aged the best because they didn't focus on "fat" details, but on creatic unique areas that look realistic.

I think part of the problem might be related to the fact the Build engine is a lot harder to use than Doom builder.

[Micky C]

Have you tried Metropolitan Mayhem? http://www.scent-88....ol/metropol.php

[TheDragonLiner]

I'm surprised to see nobody mentioned the DN3D RTCM, personally that's where I found my first mods and the owner gave some reviews although I sometimes don't agree with what is said but it still helped me find good mods in the past >_>

http://www.r-t-c-m.c...ews-mod-duke3d/

[NNC]

Micky C, on 30 July 2018 - 03:49 AM, said:

Have you tried Metropolitan Mayhem? http://www.scent-88....ol/metropol.php

If you ask me, yes. however I didn't like it too much. The first couple of levels felt like designed deliberately ugly (at the first map I thought this is a joke project tbh), then later maps like Meatball Sub Makin' felt a lot better, but more like modern userlevels with huge overlow of monster spam.

Duke Hard was a better experience, levels like Abstractech felt genuine adventures.

[Forge]

AMC-Pleaser is a good, genuine level

[Phredreeke]

How about the Chronic by Sanek and Zykov Eddy?



(not my video)

[Sanek]

What Chronic is doing here? It's as far from Nansci's standarts as it can possibly be.

[Ninety-Six]

Personally I found MM to be fairly decent at doing the 3DR Style. It wasn't as meticulous and point-for-point as the DTWiD projects, but it still generally followed the basic 3DR-type structure. The only real exception I found were the boss maps which were mostly their own unique thing.


I'm with Nansci at least as far as wishing for some more 3DR-type (or even loose 3DR-type maps, kinda like ADG1-5). I mean I love the highly detailed Roch/Red-like maps as much as the next guy, but I'd love to see more maps with a stronger emphasis on sector-based shadows and lighting, simple but finely-trimmed texture work, and gameplay that focuses more on smaller locations where you rarely see more than three enterable buildings if it isn't set entirely within one. MM did a lot to scratch that itch for me, but I'd love to see some more.

[Idiotska]

I believe the title for these awards should be: The Dukies

[VGA]

oasiz, on 29 July 2018 - 03:09 AM, said:

I think the issue with Duke mapping is that it's very hard to get a balance of nerdy buildporn and not having it feel like an usermap. New visuals often can end up being a bit clunky one-off effects that can be cool but feel a bit disconnected from the rest of the experience.
It's a very fine line here. Not to mention that bundling textures/code/music is still not as accepted/common as it would be for a doom wad. There is only so much you can do before the ideas start to repeat themselves.

This is part of the reason why effects / etc.. are so flexible and customizable in maiden, stuff like "queen of the hill" is actually nothing more than a level counter (with killcount) that fires off a lotag at the start of the round and ALL (spawns/timing/etc..) is handled with map effects. There must be like close to 1000 effect sprites that form the 15 rounds. All mapper adjustable. Although current I am the only one being able to work through what must be around 3-4 levels deep spawn multiplexing/automating trigger system
I hope that IM will inspire duke mappers to give it a go, I can only say that it's a joy to map for and even I constantly discovering new stuff I never thought could be done.

Oops I downvoted you instead of upvoting

[Phredreeke]

I just upvoted him to offset it.

(I really like the idea but as I said before I don't think there's enough content made for an annual award)

[Paul B]

Actually, I have been tossing the idea around about hosting a map competition at Dukemaps.net with cash rewards up to $500 for first place. This could possibly be hosted in the next couple years and when i'm ready to host it, I will post the details under the news section of the site as well as starting a form post here of course.

This has been in the back of my mind since launching the site and is something i'd definitely like to make a reality. When the time comes I'll be sure to let everyone know. The maps should be geared towards not just one type of game play but have Co-op, Single Player and Duke match in mind. I would only accept new maps intended for the competition and not something previously released. I'd probably let the competition run for 10 months to ensure everyone has ample time to release a quality product. I would assist with the judging process but I will also ensure there are at least 2 other judges to contribute to the overall scoring of each map submission, so it's not just one judge rating the map as everyone picks up on something different or sees things from a different light.