[kaisersoze]

Joe responds to and locks a thread about beta testing DNF.

Thread here: http://forums.3dreal...ead.php?t=28701

The thread starter's post:

Quote

Sorry if this has already been addressed, (if so I missed the thread) but will there be any user beta testing for DNF? If so how do loyal Duke fans we sign up for it?
I tried to get in on the Crysis beta testing but, oiy!, that filled up fast!
Love,
Servo

Joe's response:

Quote

No idea. Way too early to decide, but George has said in the past that we won't be doing that.

Bold, underlined mine.

Your thoughts?

[Jobi-Wan Kenobi]

kaisersoze, on Sep 30 2007, 01:18 PM, said:

Joe responds to and locks a thread about beta testing DNF.

Thread here: http://forums.3dreal...ead.php?t=28701

The thread starter's post:
Joe's response:
Bold, underlined mine.

Your thoughts?

I just read it andI was a little bit shocked
WAY TOO EARLY...that doesn't sound good at all. I guess if there was a Beta testing it may start a half year before release?! If DNF comes out in end of 08 we have still 9 months untill june 08.

[trackit]

yap that doesnt sound good... but this is consistent with our educated guess that they decided to rewrite at least some of the tech.

i guess no DNF before 2010 if ever

[Jobi-Wan Kenobi]

trackit, on Sep 30 2007, 01:55 PM, said:

yap that doesnt sound good... but this is consistent with our educated guess that they decided to rewrite at least some of the tech.

nooo, i don't want to hear this, my mind rejects it. Is this some freaking nightmare?!

[trackit]

i guess the name DNF is damned... it is destined to not finish. they should have picked some other name.

[Jobi-Wan Kenobi]

a period of 8 months (calculating from now until may) you can call "way to early". Don't you?!

[Kristian Joensen]

Dudes, you are reading WAY into this. First of all, the thread was about whether or not DNF will have ones of those "public beta" tests like for instance ETQW had or TF2 is having now. If you guys remember in both of those cases the public betas started VERY closely prior to the game in question going gold.

Second "way too early" is not in ANY way any kind of objective time measure or any kind of objective statement.

Frankly to me that sounds very much like hyperbole to emphasize a point. Joe was locking a thread, in was in that context he used that wording.

Both 3D Realms in general but certainly also Joe in particular make a point of regularly telling people NOT to read into their statements. To you really honestly think Joe would EVER even consider making any statement that DNF is far away or close or anything like that ?

No, obviously not, he has said that a dozen times. That in and of it self is reason enough to reject that reading of what Joe said.

Quote

but this is consistent with our educated guess that they decided to rewrite at least some of the tech.

Sorry but I reject the notion that those guesses are in any way shape or form educated at all.

What is "atleast some of the tech" supposed to mean ? George has already said that they keep their tech up to date and that doesn't require them delaying the game:

Quote

No reason to freeze, as we have time to trickle in features until the game ships. But it's complete enough now that we could ship with no excuses and be happy.

But just like in Duke 3D, when that engine was done, we still added small features like slopes and went back and retrofit the levels. We will still add things to the engine, as we can, where they make sense, and most importantly - where they won't delay us. We will add things if they are cool and don't impact things, but we will not add features that will cause big delays or mass reworking of exisiting content.

Quote

think 1) we're sufficiently advanced so as to not look dated when we ship and 2) we will continnue to add features until we ship. But they are all fluff features. We have enough to ship now, and that's a great thing for development because we can make the game with no excuse like "We need X to do Y". We don't really have any unknowns right now. We just have a lot of work to do.

Quote

Don't worry. When I say tech complete, I mean we could ship if all the content were done. It's fairly easy to add and update shaders and we do so all the time. The graphics guys area ahead and always have time to add in bells and whistles. Many things like per pixel blur, depth of field etc, have zero impact on game content and drop in, in a few days.

I challenge everyone claiming that they have done any major re-write to the engine to either:

A)Tell me what the lacking feature(s) they supposedly added where, why they needed to add them, why they caused "big delays" or "mass reworking" of existing content and couldn't be added under the policies/guidelines mentioned in the above quotes.

or,

B)STFU.

Edit:

Quote

a period of 8 months (calculating from now until may) you can call "way to early". Don't you?!

Yeah, you certainly could. There is no objective or fixed meaning to "way too early" but in this context it would certainly not be unusual to call 8 months "way too early".

[Jobi-Wan Kenobi]

I guess I was shocked about Joe's statement not because he spoiled any DNF progress but because I read to much into it, once again! *calming down now*

[trackit]

Kristian, take it easy man no need to "STFU" to me! its open forums and everybody can express their opinion here. i could say to you the same, either A) prove it to me that they didnt any changes that delayed the game B)STFU
But its too childish so i wount do that.

i wish i had your optimism about DNF development though You seem to always try to back up "everything is great, development is going nicely" theory, but you know, this game have been in development for 10 years, we havent seen any media or any real news since 2001. So until i see something that proves the good state of the development it seems more likely to me that development is not fine. i just dont HAVE to belive your theory, right? i could, but i dont have to, dont try to force me, because you dont have anything to back up your theory either. And until we do, everybody have a right to their own opinion.

[Micki!]

To cut my opinion short without making a whole story
You guys are reading toooooooooo much into it...

I don't even think it's worth discussing at all to be honest, he just said what he had to, to make his point clear, before the thread got locked...

He could just as wwell have said "We have no plans regarding that yet" or simply "we haven't decided yet" All of these could be read "into" in the same way as this above so called "statement"

So i'll say i'm sorry if i sound kinda rough here, i don't mean to mock anyone by htinknig this "means anything", but i would feel sorry if Joe would have to get to these forums as well and say pretty much the same; "You guys read too much into things"...

To cut my post even shorter:
That's no big deal (yeah, that pretty much covers most of it )

[Kristian Joensen]

Great post Micki!, I agree 100%.

trackit, the thing is that the burden of proof is on you guys. We have to assume everything is fine unless there is any reason to believe other wise. Maybe some things I say seem a bit harsh to you but they are NEVER meant as personal insults or anything. I am going after your points not YOU. I have no problems with you or Kaiser or anybody.

Edit:

Quote

we havent seen any media

This is wrong and I am sure you know, I am assuming you meant to add something "any major media" or something. But we HAVE seen media from the game this year.

Quote

because you dont have anything to back up your theory either.

This is wrong headed thinking. Imagine a debate between two persons about whether or not a 3rd person was a child molester. The one claiming that he was a child molester could easily say "You don't have any proof that he isn't a child molester" well so what ? It is the one claiming he is that carries the burden of proof.

If I accused Kaiser of beating his wife and demanded that he prove other wise, Kaiser would have every right to be upset. It would be I who would have to prove that he DID, not he that would have to prove he didn't, anything else would be preposterous.

If you stepped in to the discussion and (rightly) pointed out for instance that every thing seems to indicate that Kaiser is a very nice guy and that he is not the sort of person that would do stuff like that would constitute positive evidence that he didn't beat his wife.

Kaiser doesn't beat his wife(that was just a hypothetical example to make a point and to make it as strong as possible) and 3D Realms didn't make any major tech changes to DNF. The evidence for both claims is the same and both claims are true.

I can't emphasize enough how much I would be opposed to anyone making such ridiculous claims against Kaiser. It is completely absurd to think such things. But that is exactly my point in the same way it is completely absurd to think that 3DR made any major changes to DNF.

Now obviously claims of wife beating are much more serious then claims of a company restarting a game it has in development. However my point is that as far as evidence, proof and burden of proof are concerned they are exactly the same.

The same rules of logic and reasoning apply in both cases.

[trackit]

lol @ Kaiser beating his wife

I understand your point Kristian, but DNF case is somewhat different... If DNF had been in development for 2 or 3 years then i would agree with you. No point in thinking that something is "wrong" unless you have a proof for it. but DNF have been in development for 10 years, it have been delayed to death over and over again. I think i dont have to go trhough all the DNF development troubles... We all know that DNF have become "vaporware" in the eyes on publicity.

In the light of all those aspects i think its not valid statement to say "its all ok and you have to prove something is wrong".
DNF have had so many setbacks (and those are facts not guesses) so for me there is plenty of reasons to think that its not ok, and as of yet not even 1 reason to think it is.

I can even go that far and say we dont know it the game even exists. And unless somebody proves that something exits i dont have to belive that.

EDIT:

and about the media... you have to be kidding to count those thumbnails as media, right? besides george specifically said those are only for job ads and nothing more.

anyway... its not my point to argue with you and bash DNF. I want it to come out as much as you. I just wanted to say, you have your opinion that all is ok, i have mine that they delayed the game. so... big deal. people have different opinions all the time.

[Alan]

If a tree falls down in the middle of an uninhabited forest, does it make a sound? Yes. Whether George said they're for advertisements or not, he did also say that they're material from the game.

[trackit]

ahh ok, in that case they already released new media a couple of years ago when George said that left top pixel on your screen is from the game

[kaisersoze]

My wife actually kicks my ass on a daily basis.

Just a thread for discussion. It's nice to discuss these type topics over here without them being deleted/locked.

The official DNF forum is pretty stagnant right now.

Beta testing is towards the end of development anyways and as I've said elsewhere, I think they're still at least a year out.

[Nukem]

I think it's just idiotic to say it's "Way to Early." Way to early was back in 2003, I think we're now closer than ever to seeing Beta, even if it's internally and not accessible to the public, I think we'll be seeing more media of DNF in early 2008, and hopefully a demo soon.

[Lead]

WTF

Public beta testing is usually done when the game is nearing completion. The only thing "way too early" would be saying in any realistic sense is that the game isn't near completion, which is obvious because if it was we'd be seeing screenshots or movies.

People may as well ask George if DNF is coming out next month and then get emotionally distressed when he says no.

This is probably the worst case of reading too much into meaningless comments that has come along in a while. :\

[django]

I'm sure Joe sliped up. He said more than he should. There's been a new restart, I rembember George talking about the unreal engin 3, back in 2004 when he said that kind of engines were way ahead and nothing to bother about. I think they were sitting on something that looked outdated in 2006, and the new small screenshots that we've seen this year is based on the new tech wich made people leave the company.

[Dennis]

George posted in the Shacknews forums a while ago that it would
be very likely that they would show some media this year, perhaps a lot.

For me that statement would mean also, that what Scott Miller stated in 2006 in a interview, that if you should see media of DNF, the game should be a year away.

If we do the math, the game will be released at the earliest okt-dec.2008, what concerns me is, that there is no hint that we actually are going to see something this year

/rant mode on
Also if youre a long time visitor of the 3D Realms forums like me, it has never been such a dull place in the last 10 years. A few years back George popped in every day with some things to keep the place interesting, but now he only appears on the Shack. Also there are more posts deleted / locked in the DNF forum as created, therefore let's all come to this forum
/rant mode off

[kaisersoze]

Dennis, on Oct 1 2007, 09:43 AM, said:

George posted in the Shacknews forums a while ago that it would
be very likely that they would show some media this year, perhaps a lot.

For me that statement would mean also, that what Scott Miller stated in 2006 in a interview, that if you should see media of DNF, the game would be a year away.

If we do the math, the game will be released at the earliest okt-dec.2008, what concerns me is, that there is no hint that we actually are going to see something this year

/rant mode on
Also if youre a long time visitor of the 3D Realms forums like me, it has never been such a dull place in the last 10 years. A few years back George popped in every day with some things to keep the place interesting, but now he only appears on the Shack. Also there are more posts deleted / locked in the DNF forum as created, therefore let's all come to this forum
/rant mode off

Nice to see you here Dennis!

I agree with pretty much everything you stated. The DNF forum right now is pretty much dead. There's really nothing at this point that can be talked about that hasn't been mentioned the last 10 years. We have tons of repeat topics/discussions and anything straying from the tired repeat threads such as "What kind of sunglasses should Duke wear in the game?" seems to get locked/deleted.

At this point, I'm not expecting any type of media this year. The more and more I think about it, I don't think we're gonna see this game for another 2 years at least.

George has repeatedly stated that games such as Half Life 2 had 5+ years of development with much larger teams than they have so you read between the lines.

I'll never give up on the game or 3drealms until they either release it or cancel it.

Doesn't mean I haven't become disillusioned from time to time over it's rocky development however.

George has been saying they've been wanting to show the game off the last couple years and there's still nothing solid except for 3 very small thumbnail screenshots.

As it's October 1st and based on George's comments they'd like to show us the game this year, they've got exactly 3 months until the year is up.

I'm gonna take it pretty hard if we hit the end of this year and get nothing. I'm not gonna hold my breath this time either.

[peoplessi]

I, for one, am holding to that "more media this year" thingy, that is what George Broussard, unless he says something else about - this is what I believe to happen. Though, we don't have too many months left of this year

[Nukem]

Well even though George says these things, it's ridicoulas it's taking this long for a game. Think of Doom 3 and id software. It took them only four years with a team probably not that much bigger than 3D Realms, to finish the game. It's been over a decade since DNF was announced, and even though we see new screenshots, there's always something that halts the game's release. I don't think it's the team size, and I don't think it's the game tech, we know it's real, becuase we just do, and John Romero had even said in an interveiw he had seen/ played it back in 2000. Now I think we're going to start seeing some more media in early 2008, and hopefully maybe even a release of DNF in late 2008/ early 2009. But the thing is, most people have either given up on the games completion, and forgot about Duke over all. I don't even know how 3D Realms is funding all this! Sure Prey brought in a heft sum but still, at the rate of the games develpment, George is going go bank rupt by the time of the games release.

I think we'll see more and more media of the game in the beginning of next year, I'm confident we will, but I wouldn't put money on it.

Also concerning George's comment about development and team size, as kaisersoze had wrote, "It took 5+ years to finish Half-Life 2, and they had a much bigger team." That's just an excuse, 10+ years is crazy for a game, even one like this. And it's should be done by now.

[peoplessi]

You (should) know better, the current version of DNF(the only that counts) hasn't been under development for 10 years. So that is a false statement. 3D Realms is in such a happy position where they can decide when or when not, to do anything. This is something you should consider. Valve isn't known to be too fast either. Nor id on every occasion, considering for example the sequel for RtCW.

[ADM]

You all are reading too much into it.

How many times has Joe told you all not to do so? You never know when it might come back to bite you all in the ass

[kaisersoze]

ADM, on Oct 1 2007, 10:27 AM, said:

You all are reading too much into it.

How many times has Joe told you all not to do so? You never know when it might come back to bite you all in the ass

I'd gladly let it tear a big piece of my ass out if it gets us a good look sometime soon.

[Dennis]

kaisersoze, on Oct 1 2007, 04:03 PM, said:

Nice to see you here Dennis!

I agree with pretty much everything you stated. The DNF forum right now is pretty much dead. There's really nothing at this point that can be talked about that hasn't been mentioned the last 10 years. We have tons of repeat topics/discussions and anything straying from the tired repeat threads such as "What kind of sunglasses should Duke wear in the game?" seems to get locked/deleted.

At this point, I'm not expecting any type of media this year. The more and more I think about it, I don't think we're gonna see this game for another 2 years at least.

George has repeatedly stated that games such as Half Life 2 had 5+ years of development with much larger teams than they have so you read between the lines.

I'll never give up on the game or 3drealms until they either release it or cancel it.

Doesn't mean I haven't become disillusioned from time to time over it's rocky development however.

George has been saying they've been wanting to show the game off the last couple years and there's still nothing solid except for 3 very small thumbnail screenshots.

As it's October 1st and based on George's comments they'd like to show us the game this year, they've got exactly 3 months until the year is up.

I'm gonna take it pretty hard if we hit the end of this year and get nothing. I'm not gonna hold my breath this time either.

I am also pretty dissapointed if nothing happens this year Kaiser, but another 2 years seems very likely

[Nukem]

peoplessi, on Oct 1 2007, 10:20 AM, said:

You (should) know better, the current version of DNF(the only that counts) hasn't been under development for 10 years. So that is a false statement. 3D Realms is in such a happy position where they can decide when or when not, to do anything. This is something you should consider. Valve isn't known to be too fast either. Nor id on every occasion, considering for example the sequel for RtCW.

Actually RtCW was devoloped by Human Head, and it only took about three years to develop.

From what I can tell, 3D Realms is always updating their current version to the next "level".

Now I think your suggesting that they throw out all their old data and start from scratch every time they improve on their current version.

[Jobi-Wan Kenobi]

At least we'll see a new unnanounced original IP sometime between october and december this year, according to Raphael van Lierop. http://www.gamasutra...php?story=14301

I'm really excitited about this one, knowing 3DR only teams up with AAA-devs.

[trackit]

3DR is becoming an investor company rather than developers

To be honest im not really excited about this new IP.

And im 100% sure we wount see anything this year regarding DNF. And im not sure about early next year too... DNF is becoming an urban legend for me. thats sad.

[crunchysuperman]

Nukem, on Oct 1 2007, 10:15 AM, said:

Actually RtCW was devoloped by Human Head, and it only took about three years to develop.

Nope. Gray Matter & Nerve software developed RtCW.