[themaniacboy]

StrikerMan780, on 14 April 2011 - 04:53 AM, said:

I think that he was intending sexual innuendo.

I think he wouldn't understand anyway, after all he is a troll and most probably a kid.

[MrBlackCat]

blackharted, on 14 April 2011 - 06:44 AM, said:

I know, i read that letter. It still was very vague.


50 TO 60 "A" BUGS LEFT?!!!!!! SHIT! 2 months away from release and there are still "A" bugs left!? FUCK!

Yeah? Like I said before, I never worked on games, but as a software engineer having 10,000 bugs and 3,000 of them being "A" class is normal for a piece of software as complex as a game. The last major program I worked on had over one million lines of code. The trace set for that program was about 20 catalogs of around 600 pages each.

Just because they are "A" doesn't have anything to do with how long it takes to fix them, it just means they should be fixed before shipping or that they are top priority. Some known bugs are still shippable if minor enough. Every company I worked for had a different classification system. Most of the time, they are unknown source anyway, so 60 really doesn't tell us anything. It is like saying "I spent a lot of money." A lot relative to what? A car "lot", or a lot on a pack of gum.

Think of it like this... you have a "sound" in your car engine... you don't know what it is. Its a bug. So... if it is a loose vacuum line on the PCV valve making it click, it is a 30 second fix. If that same Bug is a spun rod bearing, and damaged the crankshaft , an engine rebuild is likely required, so the time could be massive by comparison. See?

That is why prediction of software completion can be difficult sometimes. Fixing one thing breaks others sometimes... or require rebuilds of structures... or you realize you have so many subroutines to handle bugs, that it turns out best to restructure... part of optimization. With games, this is critical.

MrBlackCat

[bullerbullerseven]

I would thumb you up if i could Mblackcat ^^

[OpenMaw]

Jhect, on 14 April 2011 - 09:05 AM, said:

I would thumb you up if i could Mblackcat ^^

You can. See the plus and minus in the lower right of his post?

[bullerbullerseven]

I got banned from that because of a major downvoting incident. Was fun though.

[MrBlackCat]

Jhect, on 14 April 2011 - 09:05 AM, said:

I would thumb you up if i could Mblackcat ^^

Hehehe... thanks.

Sorry hear about your indecent.

I don't know what to think of the voting system like that... or more accurately, how to interpret it. I guess I will look at it like I do game reviews... example: "This is the WORST game ever, I give it a 2 of 10! You just drive OR walk around in a TOTALLY non-linear huge confusing environment with NO direction but a tiny map in the corner, doing missions for different Mafia groups. You can steal ANY car as well! How confusing is that?! Also, the game never ends! The missions are completed, then you just roam around the environment as long as you can stand it! Who would play a game like that?!"

Yeah... GTA3. Excellence. See? Game reviews can be good no matter what they contain. Maybe these point thingys can too.

MrBlackCat

[bullerbullerseven]

I'd like to think of it the simple way, if you like a post, thumbs up, if hate it, thumbs down. Voting down should not just be if you don't like the post.

What actually happened was that a guy kept voting me down, even though my posts weren't negative or anything o.O then i voted all his posts down, then he got map and posted it to the admin lol.

[MrBlackCat]

Jhect, on 14 April 2011 - 02:43 PM, said:

I'd like to think of it the simple way, if you like a post, thumbs up, if hate it, thumbs down. Voting down should not just be if you don't like the post.

What actually happened was that a guy kept voting me down, even though my posts weren't negative or anything o.O then i voted all his posts down, then he got map and posted it to the admin lol.

I see...
(Note to self: "Self, don't vote people down just because they vote you down.")
Hehehe...

I am handling it like this so far... If I read a post and react on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being worst, 10 being best... if my reaction is a 1 or 2, I might vote down... 9 or 10 I might vote up. But the 3 to 8 range are just no-vote posts.
I suppose I could just vote down people I don't like too... being a public forum, I am sure that will happen sometimes.

MrBlackCat

[bullerbullerseven]

True. I regret that i downvoted those persons, i didn't get anything out of it. And now i can't vote. And it doesn't help being an asshole against another asshole.

[MrBlackCat]

Jhect, on 14 April 2011 - 05:39 PM, said:

True. I regret that i downvoted those persons, i didn't get anything out of it. And now i can't vote. And it doesn't help being an asshole against another asshole.

I am sorry you didn't get anything out of it.
I think you are right about not doing any good being an asshole against other assholes... that I why I think it best to just shoot them.
Problem solved. New problems created however... Hehehe

I think I will try to reserve the vote thingy for "Epic" posts... Epic Fail or Epic Wisdom... Epic Useless or Epic Useful maybe.

On Topic... as far as the delay, I wish I had my cousins point of view. "There was a Delay?" Sometimes forums are nothing more than self inflicted punishment I think.

Think about this... as a non-forum goer. He never has to make demands of the developer or publisher. He never gets infractions, ever. There is never an argument between himself and the self-entitled. His posts never get voted down just because someone hates him because his opinion is different. The game can never be late. In his/their world it is more like "Hey, Duke Nukem Forever is on the shelf... I think I'll buy it."

That would be a great world I think sometimes... <sigh>

I really think that after this game comes out, I won't use forums anymore other than the Game Collectors Market maybe. I have enjoyed the wait with a lot of you guys, but at the end of the wait, I can't see coming back. War is over... soldiers will go home. Maybe come back and talk about the good ole days every once in a while. Not sure though.

MrBlackCat

[Micky C]

But then we can talk about how awesome the game is, and any cool things that we might have missed out on so we can try to find them. Then (hopefully one day) we can start talking about user maps and modding.

[blackharted]

MrBlackCat, on 14 April 2011 - 08:24 AM, said:

Yeah? Like I said before, I never worked on games, but as a software engineer having 10,000 bugs and 3,000 of them being "A" class is normal for a piece of software as complex as a game. The last major program I worked on had over one million lines of code. The trace set for that program was about 20 catalogs of around 600 pages each.

Just because they are "A" doesn't have anything to do with how long it takes to fix them

An "A" bug ia a major bug. I its a serious bug, that could stop the from being played. I'd say a bug that big, takes a long time to fix.

MrBlackCat, on 14 April 2011 - 08:24 AM, said:

That is why prediction of software completion can be difficult sometimes. Fixing one thing breaks others sometimes... or require rebuilds of structures.

Rebuilds? not any more with DNF. If theres more than a couple of "A" bugs in a game don't annouce a release date until there gone.

[kaisersoze]

I think it's good news that they've admitted the demo is actively being worked on. Hopefully this means that the
bug squashing is going so well that they'll make the new June release dates.

And I concur, it would be cool to release the demo for FAC members May 3rd, 2011(the original release date).

[CruX]

Jhect, on 14 April 2011 - 02:43 PM, said:

What actually happened was that a guy kept voting me down, even though my posts weren't negative or anything o.O then i voted all his posts down, then he got map and posted it to the admin lol.

Haha, wow. You're better at distorting shit than Fox News. If anyone reads his post, here's the truth of the matter; an Admin (TX specifically) asked Jhect a question about his mod and, rather than giving him a serious answer, Jhect decided to act like a smartass. I believe in respecting the mods/admins, particularly those that play a big role in developing eDuke, so I voted the post down. I log in the next day, and see that the past four posts I'd made in that thread (which spanned back to the middle of fucking March) were voted down. So I asked about it in another thread that's meant for issues with the forum's new theme. TX looks into it and finds out that Jhect had done all of the downvoting (believe me, the little spazoid wouldn't be admitting to it, much less admitting that he was wrong for doing it, if it wasn't already publicly posted) and takes his ability to give reputation points away, rightfully so. He demonstrated pretty clearly that he couldn't use the voting system reasonably. On top of that, this stupid crack he made in the post thread - -

Jhect, on 08 April 2011 - 01:02 PM, said:

I just found out that there is a voting system here yesterday, sorry hightreason ^^

Anyway, i didn't downvote you i think, i will just keep downvoting everyone till they get 0, just to prove that a voting system doesn't matter.

- - shows that he had no intention of changing his behavior. Sorry for the derailing post, but I'm not going to let some pitiful little shit-magician go around spouting this crap without at least getting a word in edgewise.

[bullerbullerseven]

The fact that i reply on your post kinda makes me look like a kid as i just can't let it go, but i can't. May i ask you what you mean with "Jhect decided to act like a smartass" Because i have no idea what you are talking about o.O all i did was telling a joke and you take it like a smartass post? And when did i not admit that i had downvoted you? I may not have done the right thing. But you didn't either. I even told you i was sorry for making you upset, but you can't even accept it? That's more like a kid than me. And you still can't let go of downvoting me. You need to let it go dude.

[MrBlackCat]

blackharted, on 15 April 2011 - 04:10 AM, said:

An "A" bug ia a major bug. I its a serious bug, that could stop the from being played. I'd say a bug that big, takes a long time to fix.

Major and serious do not dictate time to repair. If you said it would take a long time to fix, then you would be wrong. The classification only indicates the severity of the bug, not how long it takes to fix.

Another car metaphor. Lets say your car won't start at all... "A" BUG! So you raise the hood and see that the coil wire is unhooked. You plug it back in and you are fully functional again in literally 15 seconds. End of bug. See?

"A" is only how serious it is, not necessarily how hard it is to fix.

Real life Example: after a bug reporting session with a program I worked with, we had about 2500 "A" bugs after an update went bad on some custom work systems. (wrong update was applied) I personally fixed about 200 of them in ONE day. While fixing those, some others that were related were inherently repaired as well. I think it was nearly 300 that "went away" because some could not be produced after those were fixed. HOWEVER... another one single bug, three of us worked on for a week to fix.

We worked down a list of the bugs and different engineers and techs identified each bug and added notes on how to produce it, even captured video of them sometimes if it was hard to understand. If it wasn't their area, they moved to the next bug.

First we generally try to go through all the list and identify them so the right people can get to them. If it is a simple fix, we do it right then! Like my 200+ in one day.

An "A" bug could be produced by a TYPO in a line even. Delete one character and you are back in business. So again... the severity of the bug has nothing to do with how long it takes to fix it. I am sure a lot of the guys on this site are programmers and understand all of this, maybe they are wise not to spend their time trying to help someone understand how it works, who doesn't want to.

You know Blackharted, I know what I am talking about. I am in my 40's, I am network engineer, a software engineer, and qualified in a lot of areas relative to software, networking and so on. The only reason I am here is because I am also a fan of Duke Nukem Forever.

I read something like this delay thread, and then I try to explain to you how software bug systems work (though not necessarily gaming) and then you come back with "An 'A' bug ia a major bug. I its a serious bug, that could stop the from being played. I'd say a bug that big, takes a long time to fix."

When I just bothered to take my time to explain how it works, then you tell me how it works? What the hell is that crap?
I tell you what I know, the best I can... and you tell myself and others we are wrong because of "what you feel". That is BS in my opinion. Its like you don't even want to try to understand and that you just want to bitch.

blackharted said:

Rebuilds? not any more with DNF. If theres more than a couple of "A" bugs in a game don't annouce a release date until there gone.

Rebuilds... again you don't know what you are talking about. I mean a rebuild of simple routines... animation maybe. Stuff like that. I don't know how to explain it relative to gaming... maybe the way a menu is generated for instance or the way the console deals with commands. Maybe the frame rate is bad when a menu slides down because of not suspending other routines during the slide... Doesn't matter as you don't seem to want to hear that GearBox might have been up against some pretty harsh stuff with their semi-custom engine.

Those "A" bugs might have been gone and some change caused them though... Maybe they were fixing 10 a day for a month an got to the last 60 and they took longer or they hit a complicated one.

Sometimes as you fix other things, other related bugs are fixed as well... then you hit one and it takes a week.

Enjoy your attacks on GearBox or others opinions and ideas, I won't interfere by suggesting that you don't know everything or offer any attempts to see another point of view so you can always be right.

MrBlackCat

[zwieback]

MrBlackCat, that was a brilliant post and it couldn't be said any better. +1 for that

[CruX]

Jhect, on 15 April 2011 - 06:13 AM, said:

The fact that i reply on your post kinda makes me look like a kid as i just can't let it go, but i can't. May i ask you what you mean with "Jhect decided to act like a smartass" Because i have no idea what you are talking about o.O
all i did was telling a joke and you take it like a smartass post?

TX, on 07 April 2011 - 12:54 PM, said:

What exactly are you making, Jhect?

Jhect, on 07 April 2011 - 12:55 PM, said:

A mod... duuhh. kidding, it's a mod where you play through many maps that are all connected. Very final fantasy rpg based. And with the cool music from other games like devil may cry.

Yeah, a joke. Sure. Gotta love it when someone posts something stupid/offensive/sarcastic/unfunny then tacks "kidding" onto the end, as if that magically erases the stupid/offensive/sarcastic/unfunny thing that came before it. TX asked you a very simple question and all you had to do was give him a straight answer. You can go on and on saying you were just kidding, but you said it just to be a smartass and you know it. That post had 2 downvotes too, so I'm obviously not the only person that saw it that way.

Jhect, on 15 April 2011 - 06:13 AM, said:

And when did i not admit that i had downvoted you? I may not have done the right thing. But you didn't either.

I didn't do anything wrong at all, far as I'm concerned. I downvoted your post because I legitimately thought it was stupid. You downvoted four of mine just to get back at me, despite having no way of knowing whether or not it was even me in the first place.

Jhect, on 15 April 2011 - 06:13 AM, said:

I even told you i was sorry for making you upset, but you can't even accept it?

You said you were sorry in one post, then called me an "asslicker" in the next post. Didn't seem all that genuine.

Jhect, on 15 April 2011 - 06:13 AM, said:

And you still can't let go of downvoting me. You need to let it go dude.

This is really the best part. You realize since that last spat we had in the WIP thread, I haven't mentioned this at all, right? In fact, I've been going out of my way to ignore you since then, because I can now safely assume that nothing you post will ever be constructive, informative or even marginally useful. I responded to this, though, because I didn't want people (MrBlackCat particularly) thinking it happened the way you were describing it. But now I wish I'd just kept quiet, because it obviously wasn't worth it. This thread's getting the fuck derailed out of it, and I'm partly to blame. You want me to "let it go"? Well, I think I've done that a lot more effectively than you have, since you tried to flare up a little bullshit pity-party in this thread, and you've bitched about being downvoted in other threads where it had absolutely no relevance. Nevertheless, I'll make a deal with you; if you shut up, I'll shut up. Don't bring it up in anymore threads, and I won't show up and call you on it. In fact, if you "drop it", I won't bother directing anymore posts at you at all anymore.

[MrBlackCat]

EmericaSkater, on 15 April 2011 - 07:29 AM, said:

I responded to this, though, because I didn't want people (MrBlackCat particularly) thinking it happened the way you were describing it. But now I wish I'd just kept quiet, because it obviously wasn't worth it. This thread's getting the fuck derailed out of it, and I'm partly to blame.

Of course it is up to the mods relative to how much derail to allow... I don't knock people for defending themselves... this is more fundamentally speaking than just forums. I already feel very stripped of being able to defend myself personally by the powers that be, so if a forum doesn't allow me to defend myself, but doesn't equally or greater enforce "attackers" no matter their form, then I am not a member of that forum.

I wonder if anyone here has used commercial research forums before? Private of course, but the mods on any public forums could learn from them... as they don't allow attacks. The stuff they can see through due to their training is amazing. Sometimes it escapes me, but there is usually a thread where you can discuss attacks and they are often explained. The other part is... most that get infractions/warning can be fired or reprimanded substantially. But that is business and this is supposed to be, pleasure I suppose. Jokes are ok, but offended people don't usually last long. I was told by the company psychologist they used the exchanges there to evaluate many things about personality types as it is more concise than verbal communication. VERY relaxed forums to use. Basically they don't allow negativity because it reduces inventiveness and reduces problem solving mindset. The paragraph is mostly useless because it is hard to grasp if you have not used such systems before.

All this reminds me of how "Fighing is against the rules" kind of crap... fighting includes defending yourself, so that is black and white wrong in my opinion. Falls into the school type "Zero Tolerance" we have here... which actually means Zero Judgement.

Where am I going with the big fat ramble? Here!
People have a poor understanding about freedom of speech vs freedom of harassment. You can say "Well half the forum members would be gone with strict rules like that, wah wah wah..." it actually doesn't hold up though... because of the different type of people who come in, when jerks are not allowed.

There are a LOT of lurkers out there with excellent views and ideas with a lot to offer but would not even consider posting or joining because of the fun-house level of tolerance in these public forums, is mostly my point.

More on topic though...
Without evidence to suggest other motivations besides what GearBox offered at the time of the delay, I think the delay was required beyond reason or they would have never done it. I am not going to say that GearBox is not responsible, but there is so much difference between excuses and reasons. GearBox gave reasons that we basically never got from 3D Realms over the years. I appreciate their approach.

More though...
I think the video was only for a certain target of people who "get it" and they knew plenty would not get the video. To me it was funny, ironic, and I don't take any offense at it... but I can understand those who would think it was insulting, which is why I say that the video was not for everyone.

It is my opinion that the video has more of a "We have to laugh to keep from crying." target than anything. Some people argued that the video was "real"... which shows why it wasn't for everyone. The idea that such a video actually happened in real time is right at the edge of... deleted... I'll just go with, I think it is scary.

The apology post combined with the twitters from Randy Pitchford was more responsible, more explanatory, more information, than we got from 3D Realms in all those years, in my opinion. Of course it won't be enough for everyone... I accept that. But for me, it was enough.

MrBlackCat

[bullerbullerseven]

Alright i'm too lazy to quote, and make very long posts right now. So i'm just going to say this how it is. If you can't take a simple joke post, say it. He didn't say that he doesn't like it, so i asume he is fine with it. If he is not, then he should say it to my face. You are not the person to judge to tell me how i should talk to other people. That is not because you are an asshole, but it's simply because you are not the guy i was talking to. And if you can't accept my "i'm sorry" post, then you truly are an asshole. So nothing wrong with that. Don't you start telling me that you didn't do anything wrong ;=)
We both know that you have been downvoting me just because of something i did about a year ago or something?

Now, can someone tell me where the ignore button is? I want to end this once and for all. I tried to say sorry to end this shit, but you just can't let go of what people tell you on the internet. Tell me where the button is, i can't find it lol.

[Splat]

You don't need an ignore button to ignore someone.

I don't even know what the beef is between you guys, all i see is dramatization.

Take it easy, Duke Nukem Forever is almost done.

[bullerbullerseven]

Sorry, i just can't stop answering when someone critized me xD

I used the ignore button to end this, because there wouldn't be and end to it if i didn't.

I can already feel the calm wind in my head lol.

The reason why we try to top each other is because he saw me talking bad to some other guys that ignored me about a year ago i think. He didn't like that.

[blackharted]

MrBlackCat, on 15 April 2011 - 06:34 AM, said:

Major and serious do not dictate time to repair. If you said it would take a long time to fix, then you would be wrong. The classification only indicates the severity of the bug, not how long it takes to fix.

Its a thing called generalization dude. A major bug in a game will take longer to fix than a minor one, this is especially true if causes the knock on effect.

MrBlackCat, on 15 April 2011 - 06:34 AM, said:

Another car metaphor. Lets say your car won't start at all... "A" BUG! So you raise the hood and see that the coil wire is unhooked. You plug it back in and you are fully functional again in literally 15 seconds. End of bug. See?

Not a fair example. We're talking programming dude. Besides that to me is an higher lever "B" bug, as the car dying altogher is a major "A" bug in my book.

MrBlackCat, on 15 April 2011 - 06:34 AM, said:

"A" is only how serious it is, not necessarily how hard it is to fix.

I know from now personally experience (yay!) that is extremly rarely if ever true.

MrBlackCat, on 15 April 2011 - 06:34 AM, said:

Real life Example: after a bug reporting session with a program ..... boring ego rant.

Again we're talkin' gaming!!

MrBlackCat, on 15 April 2011 - 06:34 AM, said:

An "A" bug could be produced by a TYPO in a line even. Delete one character and you are back in business. So again... the severity of the bug has nothing to do with how long it takes to fix it. I am sure a lot of the guys on this site are programmers and understand all of this, maybe they are wise not to spend their time trying to help someone understand how it works, who doesn't want to.

See above.

MrBlackCat, on 15 April 2011 - 06:34 AM, said:

You know Blackharted, I know what I am talking about.

Yeah me too.

MrBlackCat, on 15 April 2011 - 06:34 AM, said:

I am in my 40's, I am network engineer, a software engineerI read something like this delay thread, and then I try to explain to you how software bug systems work (though not necessarily gaming) and then you come back with "An 'A' bug ia a major bug. I its a serious bug, that could stop the from being played. I'd say a bug that big, takes a long time to fix."

When I just bothered to take my time to explain how it works, then you tell me how it works? What the hell is that crap?

WTH is it? talk from someone who KNOWS 100% what there talking about a hell of a lot more than you do. (I LOVE my new-ish job!)
Your in ya 40s!

MrBlackCat, on 15 April 2011 - 06:34 AM, said:

IRebuilds... again you don't know what you are talking about.

Err how about the rebuilds of DNF? DUH!

MrBlackCat, on 15 April 2011 - 06:34 AM, said:

Enjoy your attacks on GearBox or others opinions and ideas, I won't interfere by suggesting that you don't know everything or offer any attempts to see another point of view so you can always be right.

Jeez dude I had no idea you were such angry man, I should piss you off more often now I know how easy it is.

[bullerbullerseven]

He's not pissed off, he is just trying to tell you the truth. What we hear in those interview is never as bad as it sounds, they want us to think that the delay of duke nukem forever is awesome because if they didn't, then the game may have sucked. And you can barely categorize a bug without knowing the problem.

[Splat]

"A" bug, "B" bug. Thread is bugged out. Locked.