[X-Vector]

Evilman, on 12 January 2015 - 05:15 PM, said:

I really don't wanna talk about religions here, but just try to explain why we should not laugh about a satiric comic about Islam (and not against), and why listening to anti-christians metal bands or playing games like Doom with many satanic references is "okay" for most people ? Or at least, there's no big deal with that. Both examples are clear blasphems against two different religions, you agree ?

This is the reason why they've been killed, because they used blasphemic references in a funny way about Islam. They were fighting against every form of fanatism, and pressure from fanatics, not against religions in any way. They tried to show that they were not intimidated by fanatics, that's pretty much everything there is to understand.

I appreciate your opposition to the absurd notion that the murdered Charlie Hebdo personnel are responsible for the fate bestowed upon them, but I disagree with any (perceived) insinuation that religion should be free from criticism or even ridicule.
Violent assaults carried out by muslim terrorists (all over the world) are examples of religious dogmatism taken to the extreme, a dogmatism that starts with the attitude expressed by The Real Slim Flibble and others that feel religion is a sacred flower that should be exempt from any form of negative approach.
Those are usually the same people that believe any 'attack' on religion is de facto also an affront towards anyone practising it.
IMO this is a supremely arrogant position to take and one that is potentially very dangerous, as recent events have shown once more.
In all the media discussion I have come across this week, I wonder why no one has thought of hypothetically comparing the attitude towards organised religion to that regarding humanism, which to me seems valid as an alternative philosophy of life and how to live it.
Would the world care if anyone criticises, satirises, ridicules, vehemently despises or in other forms opposes this movement/idea, would people regarding themselves humanist take mass offence to it, going so far as to call for censorship, legal action, violence, death?
I find that hard to believe.

To make a more concise and general point: dogmatism sucks.

[Kathy]

X-Vector, on 13 January 2015 - 05:57 AM, said:

Would the world care if anyone criticises, satirises, ridicules, vehemently despises or in other forms opposes this movement/idea, would people regarding themselves humanist take mass offence to it, going so far as to call for censorship, legal action, violence, death?
I find that hard to believe.

But religion is probably more assoсiated with emotions, it is personal. I'm not saying it's free from criticism, but merely point out that when emotions are at play, reason goes out of the gate. Although popular religions, as I always thought, are about controlling yourself to refrain from sinful actions sparked by emotions. But it's quite evident they are failing in doing that and only contribute by being the main reason. What's the point in going at those lengths in dedication and sacriligious ceremonies when you're so easily receptive to be swayed into anger? And the reason of this anger is most likely your dedication in worshiping. It's a vicious circle.

[Kyanos]

Quote

Having used this freedom-shibboleth,we shall erase that word from the lexicon; when we come into our kingdom. Freedom of the Press, of speech, of association and conscience must disappear forever . . We define freedom as the right to do that which the law allows; this serves our aim very well, for we shall make the laws!

Quote

those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not

[Robman]

I take it most people are still completely unaware that they are a soul inhabiting a body...

Story time:

At first there was nothing, void and then there was something, a consciousness, God.

God, not satisfied with being alone seeking genuine interaction, created all creation. ( Yes this includes Lucifer.)

Events passed and Lucifer along with other angels, rebelled and were cast upon the earth.

These beings "mated" their DNA to pretty much everything. As that was not how God created those things, he did not see this as "Good."

Flooded the world to wipe out the corrupted DNA.

We live in the post flood world with remnants of the tainted DNA entities still existing yet in fewer number.

Being displeased with how humans were/are acting with the influence of evil here's what he did : For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Evil wishes to completely invert or destroy all that which God created and sees as Good. The war rages between good and evil until the day Lucifer and the evil doers are extinguished forever.

Peace will reign in this time. However all hell is going to break forth before this will happen.

This is how I look at life, and it makes sense.
Look at life and the world around you... you are living this story.

[Hank]

^ OK
It was an innocent conversation with a rabbi that freed me from religion. It simply clicked, and I was freeeeeeeeee.

The world won't end, only the people on it. Believe it or not, death of the average human being is 99.999% certain, ah let's make it 100% Planet earth however will stick around for a very long time to come.

[Robman]

Hank, on 13 January 2015 - 04:08 PM, said:

^ OK
It was an innocent conversation with a rabbi that freed me from religion. It simply clicked, and I was freeeeeeeeee.

The world won't end, only the people on it. Believe it or not, death of the average human being is 99.999% certain, ah let's make it 100% Planet earth however will stick around for a very long time to come.

Humans are here for the long run ... the numbers will go up and down however. Oh and it's not talking about "eternal life" spent in this body.

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."

Hankster, let's hear your view? I had the balls to post mine and heave it up for mockery, being able to back it up with basically the oldest text we know of doesn't hurt. Can you do similar or will I just hear "I think...?"

Every civilization believed in a "creator," there's a trend here.

You know not of the giants?

[Mblackwell]

Quote

Every civilization believed in a "creator," there's a trend here.

Citation needed.

Especially since most of them didn't believe in yours.

Your point is as broad as a Horoscope.

[Robman]

Mblackwell, on 13 January 2015 - 04:52 PM, said:

Citation needed.

Especially since most of them didn't believe in yours.

Your point is as broad as a Horoscope.

I cite history. How many civilizations would you like me to list? Out of all I said, you didn't really pick that as a worthy topic to contest did you?

Summing up the Bible in like 10 lines is surely broad.

[Mblackwell]

The current bible is a translation from Aramaic and Hebrew (mostly Hebrew) with a lot of mistranslations thrown around by shifting to Latin and English (especially since there's a lot that doesn't directly translate conceptually). A lot of the stories themselves come from old Sumarian myths and folk tales (Iraq region). The oldest surviving religious texts come from Egypt (along with a lot of other texts) and involve Osiris (the god of the dead). The oldest texts ever known to exist (but not completely deciphered, so the subject matter is unknown but appears mundane) were found in Iran. The oldest texts in Europe are Greek.

Etc.

[Robman]

Mblackwell, on 13 January 2015 - 06:00 PM, said:

The current bible is a translation from Aramaic and Hebrew (mostly Hebrew) with a lot of mistranslations thrown around by shifting to Latin and English (especially since there's a lot that doesn't directly translate conceptually). A lot of the stories themselves come from old Sumarian myths and folk tales (Iraq region). The oldest surviving religious texts come from Egypt (along with a lot of other texts) and involve Osiris (the god of the dead). The oldest texts ever known to exist (but not completely deciphered, so the subject matter is unknown but appears mundane) were found in Iran. The oldest texts in Europe are Greek.

Etc.

Yes, there's alot of bullshit to sift through, quite the complicated mess isn't it? This is why I provided an "overview." - It's not easy to see through the mud, or everybody would do it and this topic would be moot.

Let's consider for a moment of how you just listed several civilizations who believed in the exitance of something more than themselves and answered the question of your previous statement.

[Hank]

Robman, on 13 January 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:

Hankster, let's hear your view? I had the balls to post mine and heave it up for mockery, being able to back it up with basically the oldest text we know of doesn't hurt. Can you do similar or will I just hear "I think...?"

I am a Free Thinker, unless I have prove I have nothing to say. My views are simple, it's a catchy big words type of phrase called methodological naturalism. If it can be proven I don't need to believe it, I simply know something to be real.

Come an join the Free Class

[High Treason]

People make up creators because they're scared of dying and find it impossible to imaging 'nothing' - being scared most of what they don't know they fill in the blanks with "God", "Allah" or whoever so they have something to live for in their seemingly otherwise meaningless existence as well as something to die for when that is over.

The thought of some guy waiting for you is nice, the thought that the people who do wrong will be judged and punished is wonderful, but I just can't see it happening. I think the theory of aliens tampering with DNA to create humans holds more water to be honest and I think that's unlikely to be true.

Buddhists don't have a creator deity either - in fact, the traditional form doesn't have a god so far as I know.

You know what did create you? The sun probably did the majority of the work required; you're made of stardust. Think about it, this planet is made out of dust, rocks and minerals that shot out of it some millions of years ago and everything that makes you up is the same material that makes up this planet. It is possible that life evolved from comets though as occasionally a rock crashes into us that has the building blocks required for life to evolve provided the conditions are correct.

The universe, in my mind, has no beginning and no end because as far as we know, matter cannot be created or destroyed so the likelihood that some guy could exist before existence and create a bunch of un-creatable stuff is absurd to me. Why that same guy would then populate just one planet (most religions refuse - or did until recently - to accept that life may exist elsewhere) in something so huge and demand worship is also perplexing, not least the demanding of worship. What an egotistical prick.



Of course, you're entitled to your own beliefs and I'm not about to criticize anyone for thinking differently to me. If I turn out to be wrong you can come and jab me with sticks in hell - if I turn out to be right, well, sucks because if my beliefs are correct, I can't do anything like that once we're all dead.

[Robman]

Hank, on 13 January 2015 - 07:04 PM, said:

Come an join the Free Class

That is a big word, and I'm certain you're quite proud of yourself for saying it
Depends on the definition of freedom, perhaps I already consider my self to be one of the many shades of "free."

[Robman]

High Treason, on 13 January 2015 - 07:11 PM, said:

You know what did create you? The sun probably did the majority of the work required; you're made of stardust. Think about it, this planet is made out of dust, rocks and minerals that shot out of it some millions of years ago and everything that makes you up is the same material that makes up this planet. It is possible that life evolved from comets though as occasionally a rock crashes into us that has the building blocks required for life to evolve provided the conditions are correct.

The trouble is, the sun is not unique, more than one exists in the universe. Sun worship is a big topic on it's own.

"Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."

There's mathematical theory behind the conversion of frequency into matter.

[High Treason]

When did I say it was unique? My statement of

Quote

Why that same guy would then populate just one planet ... in something so huge...

Actually implies the opposite.

I don't worship the sun or anything else for that matter, but this planet would have been a total non-starter without it.

Quote

"Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."

I think there's more to it than that;

[Robman]

High Treason, on 13 January 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

When did I say it was unique? My statement of

Actually implies the opposite.

I don't worship the sun or anything else for that matter, but this planet would have been a total non-starter without it.

I never said or implied only populating one planet, nor did I say you worship the sun

High Treason, on 13 January 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

I think there's more to it than that;

Robman, on 13 January 2015 - 07:11 PM, said:

There's mathematical theory behind the conversion of frequency into matter.

Probably more along these lines..

[High Treason]

I was pre-empting that you would because you have a habit of doing things like that.

This is on a structure that is thousands of years old;


Just like the picture you posted, it has nothing to do with what we were discussing.

[Robman]

High Treason, on 13 January 2015 - 08:20 PM, said:

This is on a structure that is thousands of years old;

Point? The flower of life is found everywhere also.

Hitler didn't invent that symbol or it's meaning.

[High Treason]

See what happens when you edit a post AFTER somebody replies to it?

[Robman]

High Treason, on 13 January 2015 - 08:22 PM, said:

See what happens when you edit a post AFTER somebody replies to it?

only served to bolster the message. All I added was the mathematical part, it was only minutes gap, not days.

[High Treason]

Robman, on 13 January 2015 - 08:21 PM, said:

Hitler didn't invent that symbol or it's meaning.

Evidently not.

I said:

This is on a structure that is thousands of years old

Freqency into matter? What does that have to do with anything? Frequency as in that of a waveform? That's a form of energy which can become matter or vice-verse. The total amount remains the same so you're not creating anything, merely converting one thing into another.

I fail to see what this has to do with evolution, the theory of which is hard to argue against logically - not least of which because we've witnessed it ourselves several times, notably when a Pathogen mutates to become resistant to drugs - and I can't help but wonder if you're avoiding it because you're aware of this.

[Mblackwell]

The thing is, science doesn't say there is no god or gods... but while you see what a particular piece of science says as a cherry picked justification for a particular "you don't even know if that's the proper translation" line of text (and therefore saying your idea must be right), what is actually happening is the science is providing a mechanism where there is no god or gods required for that given operation.

You can read more into it on top of that if you want, but... Occam's Razor right?

[Robman]

High Treason, on 13 January 2015 - 08:39 PM, said:

Evidently not.

Freqency into matter? What does that have to do with anything? Frequency as in that of a waveform? That's a form of energy which can become matter or vice-verse. The total amount remains the same so you're not creating anything, merely converting one thing into another.

I fail to see what this has to do with evolution, the theory of which is hard to argue against logically - not least of which because we've witnessed it ourselves several times, notably when a Pathogen mutates to become resistant to drugs - and I can't help but wonder if you're avoiding it because you're aware of this.

And the Lord SAID "let there be light"

You're not looking deep enough by the way, given your second statement.

[Forge]

the flaw isn't in religion; it's in the assholes that use it as a vehicle to manipulate others or commit heinous acts.

even if there was no religion, some dickhead would interpret Green Eggs and Ham as a message to enforce their will onto others and make them agree or else.

[Robman]

@MB

Huh? &

Occams razor is dependent upon the asking of a question, it depends what question is being asked.

Also as a side note, one who speaks of the word of the Lord is always out numbered, hehe. It's just the way it works.

[Hank]

@ Robman - Free as in Open Mind but not too open for the brain to fall out.


Speaking off OM; have you had a chance to see what kind society the OM group generates? From India all the way to Green Political Correctness Earth Saving preachers in Europe and America. If you had not, think about it, or meditate with a free mind on the following: Turn off the light for an hour per year and save the planet. What a powerful message. Oh the OMs what would we do without them.

[Robman]

Hank, on 13 January 2015 - 09:40 PM, said:

@ Robman - Free as in Open Mind but not too open for the brain to fall out.


Speaking off OM; have you had a chance to see what kind society the OM group generates? From India all the way to Green Political Correctness Earth Saving preachers in Europe and America. If you had not, think about it, or meditate with a free mind on the following: Turn off the light for an hour per year and save the planet. What a powerful message. Oh the OMs what would we do without them.

I think you should consider that I live off the grid, solar. I am open minded, it led me somewhere Good.

Why does mankind matter so much? Because when it comes to matter(s). Mankind has the power to concern everything.

[Evilman]

Evilman, on 12 January 2015 - 05:15 PM, said:

I really don't wanna talk about religions here

[Robman]

Evilman, on 13 January 2015 - 09:54 PM, said:

Talk about religion was going on before you showed up.

Your statement was a pebble in the pond

[Evilman]

Yes i know, but it was slightly going on others subjects, i have the feeling i re-centered the discussion on religion.

Beside that, there's a topic about it here, it doesn't look great, but maybe we should use it. Or not. The discussion is interesting otherwise, i have nothing special to add but i keep reading it.