[aftli]

If this game is ruined by Games for Windows Live, I'm going to be pissed. Whatever Borderlands has, I don't mind it. Also, Steam?

[You]

aftli, on Jan 21 2011, 03:11 PM, said:

If this game is ruined by Games for Windows Live, I'm going to be pissed. Whatever Borderlands has, I don't mind it. Also, Steam?

As I said on Reddit, it's going to need serious DRM if they release the US version 3 days before the EU version. No way us Duketards are going to wait 3 days while the US guys get to finish the fucking game.

[Honza]

The bigger (read harder to crack) the DRM is the bigger triumph to crack it is. I'd be very surprised if the protection holds until 3rd of May. Just to be clear heavy DRM might work against paying customer and pirated games always work very well.
If the sales gonna be good or not really depends on multiplayer part.

To enhance the thought a little - no matter what platform it is - nowadays games can by pirated on any platform (PC, XBOX360, PS3) and if the game is promoted heavily everyone is going to play it (99% of fps gamers for this particular game) which means tens of millions gamers are potential market - doesn't really matter if he is going to pay or or not.

Next step is the game good in singleplayer part? If so, I'd bet 10% of PC gamers will buy it, no idea on number on consoles. In this particular case as the game is legendary I'd say sales might be close to 20% considering the collectors edition has better cover (I personally don't like it). To be clear let's say 10M gamers download the game, 1M to 2M will pay for it.

Last step is the game good in multiplayer part? If so, I'd bet 50% of PC gamers will buy it, no idea on number on consoles. This means 5M will really pay for it. If the MP part is not good enough the number will be between 1M-2M gamers.

All numbers are rough approximation based on my friend base of PC gamers with low income considering not very wealthy part of Europe.

[Raziel]

There is so much stuff I just don't know which is seriously making me wonder if I should get the game on PC, or whether I should even order it in Australia.

Firstly, there's the issue of DRM, I'm just going to go out and say it, the DRM used on PC games these days suck really really badly. I mean, we're starting to see games which require you to remain on the net the whole time while playing it! I mean, what the fuck is up with that?! It means I can't install the game on my laptop and play it on the go since I won't have internet. Yes Ubisoft, I'm looking at you!

Then there's the whole Australian game censorship issue. Having seen this game's trailer, I seriously wonder if it will even be able to release here. If it does, it almost certainly will be heavily censored.

This leaves me with two options... buy the game from overseas for a console (hence, no stupid DRM and no stupid Australian censorship to worry about), unfortunately, FPS gaming on a gamepad kinda sux. Option number two, pirate the game - that way I get it uncensored, on PC, it won't have stupid DRM, and I won't have to wait two weeks for the game to arrive!

I don't normally pirate games, but in this case, I have to think really hard about it. If I could get confirmation that the PC version does nothing more than a simple CD check, no internet activation or permanent net required, and I know it is coming out in Australia uncensored, hell, I'm buying it. But right now.... I just don't know.


Raz.

[MrBlackCat]

You, on Jan 21 2011, 05:50 PM, said:

As I said on Reddit, it's going to need serious DRM if they release the US version 3 days before the EU version. No way us Duketards are going to wait 3 days while the US guys get to finish the fucking game.

You can't wait three days for a game? Seriously?
What is wrong with someone finishing the game before anyone else? This seems really almost psychotic to me.
Maybe I am missing some kind of joke?

[bullerbullerseven]

MrBlackCat, on Jan 22 2011, 03:46 AM, said:

You can't wait three days for a game? Seriously?
What is wrong with someone finishing the game before anyone else? This seems really almost psychotic to me.
Maybe I am missing some kind of joke?

If you want something really much. Then 3 days is a lot of times, especially if you are bored o.O Damn i hate waiting lol.

Now stop thinking that everything unfamiliar to you is a sick joke. People are different.

[MusicallyInspired]

The PC cover art shows no Games for Windows Live logo. That is a good thing.

[Raziel]

MusicallyInspired, on Jan 21 2011, 07:51 PM, said:

The PC cover art shows no Games for Windows Live logo. That is a good thing.

Still, I might voice both my concerns on the GBX forums and hope someone important answers. I want this game on PC with no stupid DRM and no censorship, if they can do that, I don't mind waiting the extra 3 days to play it.

[MusicallyInspired]

Raziel, on Jan 21 2011, 08:54 PM, said:

Still, I might voice both my concerns on the GBX forums and hope someone important answers. I want this game on PC with no stupid DRM and no censorship, if they can do that, I don't mind waiting the extra 3 days to play it.

Don't count on it being censored. No way is that happening. And Randy has expressed his distaste for GFWL. I seriously doubt they'll go with it.

[You]

MrBlackCat, on Jan 21 2011, 07:46 PM, said:

You can't wait three days for a game? Seriously?
What is wrong with someone finishing the game before anyone else? This seems really almost psychotic to me.
Maybe I am missing some kind of joke?

You're not missing anything. I can't wait for this game, I've been waiting about 5 years. The Idea that someone in a different region will get to play it and FINISH it days before I can even get my hands on it, really pisses me off. If they do the 3 day difference release, I'm either pirating it, or finding a way to get it here from America on the 3rd.

[MrBlackCat]

Jhect, on Jan 21 2011, 08:48 PM, said:

If you want something really much. Then 3 days is a lot of times, especially if you are bored o.O Damn i hate waiting lol.

Now stop thinking that everything unfamiliar to you is a sick joke. People are different.

People are different...
There is no way he was serious though...

***edit***

You, on Jan 21 2011, 08:59 PM, said:

You're not missing anything. I can't wait for this game, I've been waiting about 5 years. The Idea that someone in a different region will get to play it and FINISH it days before I can even get my hands on it, really pisses me off. If they do the 3 day difference release, I'm either pirating it, or finding a way to get it here from America on the 3rd.

I stand corrected... you were serious.
I too have been waiting for this game... since it was announced. But that doesn't make me feel like I deserve it any more or less or before or after anyone else does. Maybe it is a cultural thing.

[You]

MrBlackCat, on Jan 21 2011, 08:00 PM, said:

People are different...
There is no way he was serious though...

***edit***

I stand corrected... you were serious.
I too have been waiting for this game... since it was announced. But that doesn't make me feel like I deserve it any more or less or before or after anyone else does. Maybe it is a cultural thing.

http://images.memegenerator.net/Futurama-F...RE-IF-TROLL.jpg

[Montykoro]

My last hope, steam!!!

[MrBlackCat]

You, on Jan 21 2011, 09:25 PM, said:

http://images.memegenerator.net/Futurama-F...RE-IF-TROLL.jpg

Not trolling, I was just trying to understand your thinking or see if you were just kidding. I just don't steal games... especially for reasons like someone else might get to play it before me. Is very foreign thinking to me, so I asked.
Where I live is "criminal behavior"... so like I said, maybe stealing is culturally/socially acceptable where you are. Prostitution and some drugs are illegal here, and they aren't in other places... same thing. Nothing personal. I don't pretend to know everything about everyone, even more so with people from other places, so I asked.

Like Jhect said, people are different.

[Raziel]

MusicallyInspired, on Jan 21 2011, 07:58 PM, said:

Don't count on it being censored. No way is that happening. And Randy has expressed his distaste for GFWL. I seriously doubt they'll go with it.

They might still employ some other tasteless DRM. I hate things like activation because it feels like they're just screaming, you don't really own this game despite the fact you just bought it. I tend to refuse supporting that kind of thing, that's why I'm mainly a console gamer these days. Having said that, DNF was designed for PC, so that's why I'm still trying to figure out what I should do with regards to preorders.

[The Commander]

I am not to concerned about any form of DRM.
The only grumble I have ever had with DRM was SecuROM when C&C 3 was installed.
This caused me a lot of headaches with my explorer shell and took me a few days to track down the issue as I only came across two other people that experienced the same issue.

There is no doubt about that DNF will include some form of DRM, what I tend to frown a lot on is this "amount of installs" that games are now moving to. Lets hope that is not the case.

Raziel, on Jan 22 2011, 05:33 PM, said:

Having said that, DNF was designed for PC, so that's why I'm still trying to figure out what I should do with regards to preorders.

I think this game in the past several years as been made with all formats in mind. (Think COD)
In saying that though, I would say PC if you want to get the most out of the game, fan mods etc.
Getting the game on console will remove any hope of fan based mods and only limit you to any official addons which could possibly come at a cost. (Think L4D2 addon packs, free on Steam, cost to download on the 360 etc)

[Kathy]

6th May is even better since it is Friday.

[Mikko]

You, on Jan 22 2011, 04:59 AM, said:

The Idea that someone in a different region will get to play it and FINISH it days before I can even get my hands on it, really pisses me off.

Why?

You've got issues if you can't wait three days.

[Kristian Joensen]

GFWL, constant online DRM(ALA Ubisoft's DRM) and limited installs are the main things I would have issues with. I don't care what DRM provider or solution they use as such, what matters is strictly what the DRM actually DOES.

[Raziel]

Kristian Joensen, on Jan 22 2011, 04:20 AM, said:

GFWL, constant online DRM(ALA Ubisoft's DRM) and limited installs are the main things I would have issues with. I don't care what DRM provider or solution they use as such, what matters is strictly what the DRM actually DOES.

Agreed, I have no problem with disc checks and similar protections, but once I can't install or play a game I bought without being online, that's where I draw the line. And it's a really sad scenario, since DRM doesn't actually stop piracy, the only people actually affected by DRM are the ones like me that pay for their games. On that note, I just hope they don't implement any ridiculous DRMs on Duke.

[aftli]

Raziel, on Jan 22 2011, 07:49 AM, said:

Agreed, I have no problem with disc checks and similar protections, but once I can't install or play a game I bought without being online, that's where I draw the line. And it's a really sad scenario, since DRM doesn't actually stop piracy, the only people actually affected by DRM are the ones like me that pay for their games. On that note, I just hope they don't implement any ridiculous DRMs on Duke.

GFWL is even worse than that, even. I'll explain the reason I'm so worried about it. FYI, I already had this typed up as a reddit post, I'm just pasting it here. What follows is an account of my totally awesome and easy experience playing BioShock 2 which included GFWL. You don't have to read all of it, you can just look at the length of all of the issues to get the jist of why GFWL is a serious problem.

• Purchased the game in Steam about six months ago. I know it's old at this point, but I hadn't played it because I was "between computers" and only had my laptop. Recently built a new desktop, decided to give the game a go because I loved the original one.
  
• Click "Play". Steam installs DirectX (already installed on my system), MSVC 2008 redistributable (already installed on my system), and the Games For Windows Live client/ridistributable/whatever (first time installing on this fresh system). Steam is awesome anyway.
  
• Steam, ever helpful, shows me my product key/serial number/CD key/whatever. Steam is not the problem here
  
• it just knows the publisher decided the only option is to use invasive DRM.
  
• The launcher says "This software must be authenticated online prior to use. For activation a valid SERIAL and an active Internet connection is required." I guess if I didn't have internet, I'm screwed. No big deal, I have internet.
  
• Bioshock 2 attempts about four (if I recall correctly) HTTPS (encrypted) connections. Even if I wanted to figure out what kind of information it was sending, I wouldn't be able to. Lots of applications do this nowadays, okay, I'll let it do it. I se my firewall (Comodo, which I use really only for privacy purposes) to allow the traffic.
  
• I sit through about 30 seconds of nVidia and 2K Games advertisements. Not that big of a deal now
  
• I like to watch this stuff the first time I run a game. It's skippable, but this becomes more relevant later.
  
• Steam is again incredibly helpful - when I first started the game, it had my serial number in the bottom right-hand corner of the screen, and told me I might need it. Supposing I wouldn't need it because the "actication" process had been completed already, I pressed SHIFT+TAB (as it told me to do) to get rid of the message.
  
• Games for Windows Live! pops up, tells me that I will not be able to save my progress unless I authenticate or something with it.
  
• I have no interest in this crap and would like to store my save games on my hard drive (or preferably Steam Cloud, which I trust, but not all publishers have an agreement I guess). Apparently this isn't an option.
  
• I do not believe I have a GFWL account, it says I can use my "Live!" account. I have one of those from back in the MSN days, I use it all the time with my MSDN subscription.
  
• I enter my Windows Live ID and password, and am prompted to enter my serial number, for the second time now. I do not have my serial number handy, because I used SHIFT+TAB to get rid of the message (again, not Steam's fault for sure). I am unable to immediately find a way to get the serial number from Steam's overlay UI, so I quit the game,a nd restart it.
  
• My username and password (which I only just the other day used to download at least $2k worth of Microsoft software to my new computer through MSDN) is invalid. I suppose I need a specific GFWL account. I would otherwise be very pissed off that I have to sign up for an account, but fine, I already have one.
  
• GFWL invites me to create a new account, assuming that because I was unable to log in, I didn't have one. It tells me that it will open a web browser to create an account.
  
• Internet Explorer is opened (which is not my default/preferred browser). I am taken to the page where I am again told to login with my Windows Live ID and password. I enter the only one I know
  
• the same one I use for MSDN et al.
  
• It works, and I am taken to the XBOX site, where apparently I have an XBOX account (whatever they call those).
  
• I do not currently own, or have ever owned an XBOX. Apparently my XBOX username is "TinedFunnelSeeker5". I have no idea where that came from, it isn't anything I chose. I would never have chosen that. I certainly do not remember signing up for anything that had to do with XBOX. At least I'm logged in.
  
• I hope that works to "enable" my normal Windows Live account for Games For Windows Live. I do not want to sign up for any more accounts or mess with this any longer.
  
• I'm back in the game, having watched the nVidia and 2K Games commercials again.
  
• I suddenly remember doing this awhile back for Grand Theft Auto IV PC. I had a GFWL "enabled" account at some point. I must have, because I played GTA IV for many hours, and I remember it not being as easy as I would have thought it would be. I absolutely did not use the username "TinedFunnelSeeker5". If anything, I used the same Windows Live ID (formerly known as Passport, formerly known as MSN, formerly known as ...) that I've had for about seven years now.
  
• I have three monitors. The game, this time, has made my other two monitors blank. Black screens. I cannot view my password manager or serial number.
  
• I must enter my username, password, and then my serial number again. It did not save it from last time, even though I clicked all three checkboxes ("remember my username", "remember my password", and "log me in automatically" - quite redundant).
  
• I use very secure passwords normally (Keepass + Dropbox FTW, different password for everything, letters + numbers + whatever else), my other monitors being blank means I need to memorize my Windows Live password five or six characters at a time, alt+tabbing for each piece.
  
• I notice a few times my firewall is telling me about outbound traffic requests, all on HTTPS. Every time I alt+tab. I know it's probably from a single attempt to connect, maybe it timed out to the ones I didn't see, whatever. Either way, I would have seen these had my other monitors been active. And again, what are they sending over an encrypted connection that they'd rather me not see? My serial number I guess.
  
• Just as I did with my Windows Live password, I now have to memorize my serial number, five characters at a time. It must be typed again.
  
• Since I had entered the serial number incorrectly before, I quadruple check that I typed it in correctly from the Steam Overlay UI.
  
• I enter my Windows Live username and password again. It seems to have correctly logged in - it goes from authenticating my login details to authenticating my serial number.
  
• About ten seconds (really, that's a long time> after seemingly successfully "authenticating" with my username and password, it begins to authenticate my serial number.
  
• I am told that my username and password is incorrect.
  
• I reset my password directly on the XBOX site.
  
• I repeat the same password/serial number process several twice, still with no left or right monitors, memorizing the password and serial number in small segments. I click "remember my username", "remember my password", and "log me in automatically" each time in case I am going crazy and forgot to do it the previous times. I double, triple, and quadruple check the username, password, and the fact that those three redundant checkboxes are indeed checked. It does not work.
  
• I remove firewall rules made since trying to run the game, and try again. At each step, I ALT+TAB and "trusted application" whatever is trying to send encrypted data back home about me.
  
• Wrong username and password again.
  
• For the hell of it, I completely disable my firewall. I do not have any other firewall software (Windows Firewall is literally the first thing I disable), I only have DD-WRT on my router acting as a hardware firewall. I'm an employed career software developer, and I like to think I know enough, but I admittedly do not have a CCNA or anything. I do not feel I need one in order to play a video game.
  
• GFWL has a marginally helpful "network status" button to see whether I have network connectivity or firewall issues, apparently. It indicates no problems.
  
• I try again. This time, GFWL tells me it is going to open a browser window. I do not remember offhand what it said, but it made it sound like it was trying to help me.
  
• Browser window opens, is a page about "Server Side Authentication". I understand the term, but I have no idea what it means in the context of playing the game I purchased. Is this a joke? I authenticated twice at least succesfully (once with Steam, and once with the activation server).
  
• At this point I have no idea what I did. I was surfing around the Xbox site, tried logging in at various Microsoft sites requiring Passport (or whatever they call it now) logins.
  
• Back in the game yet again without my other monitors, I am finally able to log in.
  
• I am logged in as TinedFunnelSeeker5. I still have no idea where this username came from. This might finally be over, I think.
  
• An update is required for Games For Windows Live. I will be immediately logged out of GFWL if I choose not to apply this update.
  
• I am taken to a website (in Internet Explorer, again, not my default browser) which offers to update GFWL for me.
  
• For the hell of it, I check Windows Update before I do this as that is sometimes more reliable. There is nothing there related to GFWL.
  
• After applying the "update" (I honestly don't recall how this went), back in the game, I am again asked to enter my GFWL username and password, and my serial number.
  
• My other two monitors happen to be working this time! Hooray! I do not have to "memorize" my serial number and Microsoft password (although this point I've memorized most of it, 15 characters or so at a time).
  
• I am told again that an update is required for GFWL, and I will be signed out if I do not comply.
  
• I reboot, hoping that will solve the problem.
  
• I load the game again (do you see why the ads for nVidia and 2K Games are now getting a bit annoying?) I am logged in automatically this time, but I am told, yet again, that an update is required for GFWL and I must comply or risk losing my saved games.
  
• I check Windows Update again. There is an update for Games for Windows Live. I install it. I do not remember, but I'm reasonably sure I had to reboot yet again at this point.
  
• Entering the game, I yet again had to enter my username, password, and serial number, even after it (for the first time) remembered it on the last load. My other monitors were not working again.
  
• I am finally signed in, and it appears to be a success!
  
• I am informed that my product key is "non-transferrable". Great, so much for the used game market - more on that in a second.
  
• After all of this, I have to agree to Live! terms of service, apparently in order to save my games. I have no idea what this entails - probably more bullshit about my non-transferrable product key. I am too sick and tired of this to even read it.
  
• Configure controls, play Bioshock 2. Realize within ten minutes that it's nowhere as good as I remember Bioshock 1 to be, and was not worth the effort.
  
• I wish my product key was transferrable.

EDIT: Formatting

[Striker]

[MusicallyInspired]

ROFL

[Raziel]

StrikerMan780, on Jan 22 2011, 08:43 AM, said:

Hahahaha. That's awesome!

Oh, and aftli, don't worry, the game won't use Live, Randy had already indicated that he dislikes it. But I still won't buy anything that requires me to authorize my software online. That is the point at which I draw the line, where the game remains theirs even though I've paid for it. While I normally do not condone piracy (I'm a developer myself), I have no problem with people pirating software to circumvent these kinds of online DRMs - the publisher brought this on themselves in my opinion and people should boycott releases that requires any form of online access.

Because of my dislike for online activation, I pretty much buy all of my games for consoles. I refuse to activate anything online, it's a point I'm going to remain stubborn on. I believe if I buy something, I shouldn't need to ask for permission to use it, it should just work. When you activate a game, you're basically asking the publisher "is it okay for me to play this game? this serial number proves I paid for it and this is the computer that I intend to play it on". I have a problem with this sort of thing, not to mention, if eventually the publisher no longer wants to or can support the authentication server, or you switch computers too many times, you can no longer play/install the game you legally bought. In other words, you don't own the game, they are simply giving you permission to play it. Now I don't care what their EULA states, but if I pay for a game, it belongs to me.


Raz.

[MusicallyInspired]

Good for you. Stick to your guns. (I'm not being sarcastic) I agree with you for the most part, however I really like Steam and think it's so convenient and I wish it the brightest future.

[Stewox]

I know I know aftli , been talking about that , it's a big thread on gearbox there , search for username "Kipper" and the thread name is something like "DNF will not support GFWL and Steamwork for Networking"

[blackharted]

Mikko_Sandt, on Jan 22 2011, 04:18 AM, said:

Why?

You've got issues if you can't wait three days.

Why? Why? Are you serious? Because after 14 YEARS of waiting some people will have to wait EVEN LONGER! To play something 100000's of people will have completed within at maxium, the first day of release. So instead of joining in the celibrations that it's FINALLY released we have to miss out on that to avoid any possible spoilers!!!

[zwieback]

every kid that keeps saying DRM is bad, should wake up. DRM isn't cool but HELL it is important for devs.
Here are some numbers for you little pirates:

our last software sold about 3k times---------- and there are 20k+ people using the software right now.
DRM is not necessary? really? wake up.
Our software had a simple copyprotection and it sold well until it got cracked - sales went down almost to zero in no time.

Why Steam? It's fair for the customer and it gives even benefits to the customer.

A lot of you will not like my post, but that's the reality. face it. most of you deserve drm.

[Trent]

I don't know about other parts of the world, but in the UK if you pre-order from online stores like shopto.net, games arrive in your post box a day or two (sometimes 3 or 4) before the street date. Just saying.

[Sebastian]

blackharted, on Jan 24 2011, 08:56 AM, said:

Why? Why? Are you serious? Because after 14 YEARS of waiting some people will have to wait EVEN LONGER! To play something 100000's of people will have completed within at maxium, the first day of release. So instead of joining in the celibrations that it's FINALLY released we have to miss out on that to avoid any possible spoilers!!!

You'll have to duck out for spoilers at any rate since it's going to hit the internet days before release anyways. For christ sakes could you stop whining for just one post?