[Hank]

When you go or went to school, college and/or university, did you complete your schooling with the knowledge you need or wanted?

I say no. First, I hardly went to school, and my certificates can be obtained by simply passing various test. When it came to degrees, the fees where high, but still cheaper than hanging out lecture halls for five years. I learned whatever I wanted from my local libraries, except English, it's sort of a mental block, I can't write worth shit, and I find my errors days later when I read my crap.

So I wonder, is school a babysitter, while mom and pop earn a living, or does it actually do some good?

[LeoD]

If you can't tell, school has failed at you.

[Master Fibbles]

Different schools work differently (I wonder why).

I went to mostly private schools and I am currently getting a doctorate degree at a large private research university. Because I was involved in my studies and I have taken an interest as well as going out of my way at times to take classes that I enjoy that also fulfil requirements, I have enjoyed school and I have learned countless things not only in various fields but also in life lessons.

[Kathy]

Hank, on Jan 6 2011, 12:24 AM, said:

So I wonder, is school a babysitter, while mom and pop earn a living, or does it actually do some good?

Yes it did. On the other side university didn't do shit for me except getting a degree. I failed, it seems.

[Jimmy]

School is a waste of time, in my experience. Being an autodidact, I haven't learned jack shit since 8th grade.

[bullerbullerseven]

School is only good for you if you are serious.

[Danukem]

Jhect, on Jan 5 2011, 02:46 PM, said:

School is only good for you if you are serious.

That is true, and in general you get out of it what you put into it. Having been on both sides, as both a student and a teacher, I have observed that at least half of the students are wasting their own time and other people's money. There are plenty of worthless classes even at schools with good reputations. Being a serious student means not only working hard to get good grades, but having a serious major and trying to avoid worthless classes as much as possible. The facts that you can learn from textbooks are obviously not the reason to go to school, since you can learn those by reading them elsewhere. The real educational benefit is the opportunity to interact with professionals and experts who would not be taking the time to talk with you or critique your work if you were not a student. And of course the non-educational benefit is the prospect of being able to get a job interview because of the degree you have earned, but students should be aware that not all degrees are created equal.

[High Treason]

I hardly went to school and I did not learn anything there, everything they tried to teach me I had already learned from books or the Internet. I did not learn from my early course-work, I did some NIAT course (ICT) and it did no good, the place got shut down before I could finish it anyway.

At college I may have learned a little about socialising (Something I've never bothered with) but that was not the point of the courses I did, I had to do Cooking for one year with retarded kids to prove I was competent, just because I have Aspergers Syndrome, yeah, I didn't think they were supposed to discriminate these days, learned nothing from that course, the year after that I had to do business for a year, might have learned a little about Admin or something, can't remember because I was either high or getting laid most of the time, finally, after two years of proving I was competent I was allowed to do the ICT course I applied for... Learned nothing and failed the course. Well, I actually passed but I may as well have failed because I have to do it again if I want to carry on, stupid teachers losing my work or claiming it was not good enough when everyone could see it earned distinctions and the worst thing, putting me in disciplinaries or asking me to leave for petty things like being the last one into class and therefore late or towards the end of the year, showing up early!

[Danukem]

High Treason, on Jan 5 2011, 03:33 PM, said:

can't remember because I was either high or getting laid most of the time

yeah you have a lot to complain about

[Hank]

DeeperThought, on Jan 5 2011, 06:10 PM, said:

That is true, and in general you get out of it what you put into it. Having been on both sides, as both a student and a teacher, I have observed that at least half of the students are wasting their own time and other people's money. There are plenty of worthless classes even at schools with good reputations. Being a serious student means not only working hard to get good grades, but having a serious major and trying to avoid worthless classes as much as possible. The facts that you can learn from textbooks are obviously not the reason to go to school, since you can learn those by reading them elsewhere. The real educational benefit is the opportunity to interact with professionals and experts who would not be taking the time to talk with you or critique your work if you were not a student. And of course the non-educational benefit is the prospect of being able to get a job interview because of the degree you have earned, but students should be aware that not all degrees are created equal.

Good to know, you are a teacher! I mean that!! Since you are an educator are you not a little overloaded with the pressures from having to teach a curriculum, expected to be perfect under all circumstance while dealing with the young and having to assimilate with the faculty and their political correctness?
Just curious, are you referring to a physics degree from Cambridge vs. Timbuktu, or a layer (passed the bar exam) vs. an MBA?

[Jimmy]

The bit about college, at this point, going to college is pointless. Good luck even finding a job, regardless of whether you have a degree or not. Way things are going you'd be better off dropping out and getting some shit job at McDonalds because you'd break even with the amount of debt your college bills are gonna fuck you in the ass with.

[Danukem]

Hank, on Jan 5 2011, 05:54 PM, said:

Good to know, you are a teacher! I mean that!! Since you are an educator are you not a little overloaded with the pressures from having to teach a curriculum, expected to be perfect under all circumstance while dealing with the young and having to assimilate with the faculty and their political correctness?
Just curious, are you referring to a physics degree from Cambridge vs. Timbuktu, or a layer (passed the bar exam) vs. an MBA?

I'm not currently overloaded with that stuff because I'm not currently teaching. But I was teaching college courses part time for about ten years, and may do so again some day. But to answer: teaching a curriculum just goes with the territory, and it actually makes the teacher's job easier in most respects. There is still a good deal of freedom in designing how the material is presented, which things to emphasize, etc. I feel sorry for K through 12 teachers who have to teach with certain standardized tests in mind, though. Yes, there is a lot of pressure to be perfect, and you have to be competent at a lot of different things, but I don't think that's any worse than a lot of other jobs. College teachers do get evaluated a lot, and that's a source of stress. Every course you teach is observed at least once per semester by a higher ranking faculty member who writes a review of your performance. Every student in the class writes an evaluation as well, and they don't pull any punches (this is one major cause of grade inflation -- teachers who give higher grades tend to get better reviews from the students). Your overall performance is judged by the peer review and the student reviews. That means it's not enough to just teach the material; you also have to be something of an entertainer, or the students will give you low marks for being boring. It's fair --sort of-- because after all, a good teacher should be able to engage the students and make them interested, not just stand there like a lecturing robot. The trouble is that the students may have a totally different sense of humor or may be too stupid or ignorant to be entertained by the subject matter. Or, you may be a boring person who sucks at engaging people ; I've certainly had days like that.

Young people are easy to deal with as long as you are a lot older than they are. If you are just a few years older, then it can be awkward (not an issue for me any more, sadly). Political correctness is a constant source of irritation for me. I don't like it when professors put political signs on their doors and bring their biases into the classroom. It's hard to find textbooks that don't have strong PC bias, as well. When I teach, I try to keep my biases to myself, partly out of self-defense. But I challenge students' controversial beliefs by playing devil's advocate and presenting the strongest arguments on the other side. It was common for the conservative students to come away thinking I was a liberal, and for the liberal students to come away thinking I was conservative.

[Master Fibbles]

If you work in high school you can go through college with minimal or no debt. I know people...I myself graduated around $20,000 in debt and I know people with less debt. Of course, I also know people who are over $100,000 in debt.

[bullerbullerseven]

Me myself i don't work in school classes because i have a fobi against many people in one room. It took away my concentration and i just couldn't listen to the teacher. Lucky for me i am kind of good at remembering thing and math is what i am best at, so i could follow the other kids with only homework. But it did not work out in highschool. My stomach hurt so much that i just could not take it anymore. So i had to drop out, and then i went through so i went out to find out what was wrong with me and now it's all gone. While we i tried to fix my stomach problem/socialfobi, I did some school at home which was so much more easy for me lol.

[Jimmy]

Mr.Flibble, on Jan 5 2011, 10:11 PM, said:

If you work in high school you can go through college with minimal or no debt. I know people...I myself graduated around $20,000 in debt and I know people with less debt. Of course, I also know people who are over $100,000 in debt.

$20,000 is a lot of money. It should not be that way. Education should be free.

[Danukem]

Captain Awesome, on Jan 5 2011, 06:57 PM, said:

The bit about college, at this point, going to college is pointless. Good luck even finding a job, regardless of whether you have a degree or not. Way things are going you'd be better off dropping out and getting some shit job at McDonalds because you'd break even with the amount of debt your college bills are gonna fuck you in the ass with.

I wouldn't go that far, but I certainly would not recommend that people go into debt in order to get a liberal arts degree, that's for sure. There will always be jobs for nurses, mechanics, and lots of other professions, but students need to be smart and look at supply and demand. Going to a professional school would be a better option for a lot of students than majoring in the liberal arts, or the "soft" sciences.

The cost of education continues to increase while the actual value of it does not. It's a bubble, similar to the housing bubble. Here's a great article on this, which I agree with: http://washingtonexa....com/node/80276

[Hank]

Captain Awesome, on Jan 5 2011, 09:57 PM, said:

The bit about college, at this point, going to college is pointless. Good luck even finding a job, regardless of whether you have a degree or not. Way things are going you'd be better off dropping out and getting some shit job at McDonalds because you'd break even with the amount of debt your college bills are gonna fuck you in the ass with.

Schooling does not guaranty a job let alone a living. In my experience, it's who you know and not what you know. All I know is construction, and it is a little corrupt there, and a little rough. - But you need at least college to be part of the 'team'. The risk being in debt is going through college might be worth it compared of being guaranteed poor for the rest of your life. When I came to America I did McDonalds, no thanks.

[Hank]

DeeperThought, on Jan 5 2011, 10:31 PM, said:

The cost of education continues to increase while the actual value of it does not. It's a bubble, similar to the housing bubble. Here's a great article on this, which I agree with: http://washingtonexa....com/node/80276

What did I say, every time I come here I learn something. !!! Thanks

[Mikko]

Captain Awesome, on Jan 6 2011, 04:57 AM, said:

The bit about college, at this point, going to college is pointless.

Unless you want to make more money & have a better chance at being employed:

[Danukem]

Mikko_Sandt, on Jan 5 2011, 07:51 PM, said:

Unless you want to make more money & have a better chance at being employed:

Notice, though, that if you have a professional degree, you make virtually the same amount of money as a Ph.D. That means the guy who went to school for 2 years to become an auto mechanic is making as much as the guy who went to school for 10 years (and accumulated a huge debt) to become a lawyer or astrophysicist. And given the state of the economy, I would not be at all surprised to see the earning power of professional degrees surpass the Ph.D.'s in the near future. So yeah, you should go to school, but as I've been saying, look at supply and demand and choose carefully.

[Hank]

Captain Awesome, on Jan 5 2011, 10:27 PM, said:

$20,000 is a lot of money. It should not be that way. Education should be free.

Looks like we all picking on Captain Awesome.

Anyways, there I agree. In Germany it was free. The catch, your grades had to be in very good shape to get in. School was no fun. You had to learn for the sake of demonstrating your ability to learn, a lot. In America, I think there should be a way to compromise. Those with actual brains get into Uni for little, and those with rich parents, well pay up, it's your (spoiled brat) kid, anyway.

I'm going of topic from my own post. Sorry, I'm just thinking, or to pretend to think, out loud.

[Master Fibbles]

Not 10 years...more like 14 after high school. I started my 19th year of school this fall (5th after high school). I have 5-10 to go before I have my PhD. (Theology - Biblical Studies)

However, graduate students work and the smart ones don't go into debt any more than they have to (and spend much longer in school). I have a full tuition scholarship and a small stipend as a research assistant. I have been trying really hard to not accumulate more debt beyond the $20,000 (which is a lot, but a relatively low amount) but I had to take out a small loan this semester to insure that I can pay rent etc since jobs are hard to come by for a person with no car and a general dislike of plebs.
But you are right, CA, that $20,000 is $20,000 too much for a person to go into debt for an education. I have considered taking advantage of being in the nation's capitol to protest student loans but it wouldn't matter. Politicians are not only illiterate but they also don't understand that giving more loans does jack shit for people trying to go to school. Prez. Obama made a hooplah about helping people get a college degree but all he did was raise the Pell grant marginally and increase availability of loans. Fuck you, ass hole.
Education should be subsudized so that medical schools are affordable so that doctors don't have to charge an arm and a leg to fix your arm and leg so that they can pay back that huge debt.

[Mikko]

DeeperThought, on Jan 6 2011, 06:14 AM, said:

So yeah, you should go to school, but as I've been saying, look at supply and demand and choose carefully.

This is one reason why education should not be free. When it's your money in question, you tend to be more careful with it, but with state money you've got tons of kids in their seventh year still in the process of "writing" their master's thesis.

Oh, and several people have advocated so-called "free education" in this topic. There's no such thing. When I graduate, I have to pay municipality taxes, income taxes and the VAT on everything I purchase. More than 50% of my future income will go to the state, until the day I die. I find it funny how every time I tell a fellow Finn that we should abolish free education they tell me they wouldn't have money to pay for their (or their kids') education. These people seem completely oblivious to the fact that they'd be much wealthier without the welfare state.

There's also the argument that why should low-income people subsidize the high education of high-income people.

[Danukem]

As usual, I agree with Mikko in principle, although I tend to get a bit squishy in practice.

I know firsthand that money in higher education is not spent efficiently. Here's the situation for K-12 education. You wanna bet that it's much better for college?



And before anyone says, "It's the evil Cato Institute!" keep in mind that they did their homework and cited their sources.

[Master Fibbles]

Anyone with a brain knows that throwing money at a problem doesn't make it go away. America spends the enormous amounts of money on education and medical care yet we don't have nearly the best in the world.

[Plagman]

Mikko_Sandt, on Jan 5 2011, 07:51 PM, said:

Unless you want to make more money & have a better chance at being employed:

http://www.bls.gov/e...p_chart_001.JPG

I'm not sure whether that refers to gross income or after tax and deductions, can you clarify?

[Hank]

@ Mikko_Sandt and Mr. Flibble
Higher intellect is not limited to the wealthy. To have poor parents should not limit the degree of education one should receive. I still dislike school personally, because I myself am simply not into higher education, I'm not the type. The low income of my pop, would not have stopped me to acquire a higher education, though. I know nothing about the US educational system, so I can't commend. But the brightest kids should be developed, no matter where they came from. If we can find the best fucking baseball player and in my country hockey players, why is it so hard to develop a scouting system for our kids? They are our future. I think maybe not free education for all, but for those who should have one. Again, just thinking, sort of.

[Plagman]

Isn't intellect just defined by the ability to learn? Very bright people probably don't need traditional education as they can get it whenever they want in less time.

[Spirrwell]

Plagman, on Jan 6 2011, 12:39 AM, said:

Isn't intellect just defined by the ability to learn? Very bright people probably don't need traditional education as they can get it whenever they want in less time.

Exactly. I feel like school was just my babysitter until the first grade, that's when I discovered the wonders of Google, Quake, and Duke. I got my first glance at C++ seven years ago thanks to guys from a Quake server. It seemed like something I could never understand, but now I'm getting much better. I'm fourteen (fifteen in 17 days) and in eight years I've learned so much. Your brain sorts everything you learn by relevance, if your brain finds a topic more relevant than another it will be easier to remember. Math and physics are important to understand for programming (although physics is more for 3D game programming), so those are the things that I know most about. I really started my learning 10\11 years ago. At four years old I was a king of video games, and a computer geek. I remember using Windows 98 with the old Ultrahle Nintendo 64 emulator. I'm no longer a real gamer, I'm more of a computer geek. Kids are more able to learn when they're younger, as for one their minds are more like sponges, and two, they are generally more curious. I think kids should use the Internet to learn what they want for a certain amount of time, and then go to school. What happens then I don't know what should be done.

It all works differently for different people. Having a bunch of schools for education for all students at the same level is insanity. One type of school setting isn't fit for all. Just like size 11 shoe sizes aren't meant to fit everybody. Of course that's probably not a good analogy, but it's the best that I can think of to make my point.

[The Commander]

The internet is my school, if I need to learn anything that I don't know about I google it.