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Whats Your Take On This?

User is offline   Cerberus_e 

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#31

avatar_58, on Sep 4 2006, 05:23 AM, said:

Hate who?


Shacknews, if they didn't write that article, wieder would do the interview :)

avatar_58, on Sep 4 2006, 05:23 AM, said:

Frankly I'm a little confused why that is just from some small article.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


A game that doesn't get released and people quitting one after another? Such stories are popular. People really like speculating, and so do I. So do you even, so does everyone B)
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User is offline   Splat 

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  #32

Wieder, on Sep 4 2006, 12:55 AM, said:

Possibly... or maybe it was just that funny. B)

Anyways... I wanted to let you guys know that in light of the shacknews stuff I won't be able to do the interview you all put together for me unless you're ok with me avoiding all the questions that would be interesting (vs the fluff stuff you pretty much already know).

I had been holding off precisely because I was concerned about the potential sensitivity surrounding the departure(s), which has now shown to be the right decision.

I appreciated it and really wanted to but considering the situation it didn't seem like a good idea. Hope that makes sense.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Totally understandable. :)
Some questions were borderline anyway.

I still wonder who the 'traitor' was that gave the scoop to Shacknews.
Could it really have been an ex-3DR employee? B)
And what will be George's weapon of choice, if he finds out who it was? B)
Chainsaw? \o/

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User is offline   Cerberus_e 

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#33

RedSplat, on Sep 4 2006, 05:45 PM, said:

Some questions were borderline anyway
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Shhhh don't say :)
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User is offline   Splat 

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  #34

Cerberus_e, on Sep 4 2006, 05:46 PM, said:

Shhhh don't say B)
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Heh, just some questions were a bit bold. At least i thought so.
I mean, hard to answer or just not suitable. :)

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User is offline   kaisersoze 

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#35

I've heard the team was around 18 current people but now it may be as low as 7-8 people?! Wow.
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User is offline   Cerberus_e 

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#36

I didn't know 11 people left? :)
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User is offline   WorkWandaWork 

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#37

kaisersoze, on Sep 4 2006, 12:46 PM, said:

I've heard the team was around 18 current people but now it may be as low as 7-8 people?! Wow.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Now you're just being silly.

Cerberus_e, on Sep 4 2006, 10:16 AM, said:

Shacknews, if they didn't write that article, wieder would do the interview B)
A game that doesn't get released and people quitting one after another? Such stories are popular. People really like speculating, and so do I. So do you even, so does everyone B)
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Well it isn't really the Shacknews article itself. If Shacknews hadn't of written it someone else would have. It was the attention the departures were starting to get behind the scenes that made me uncomfortable doing the interview. I didn't want to potentially toss more fuel on that fire. It would be a little strange for me to continue to ignore the media email requests to confirm relatively straight forward facts, and then answer the sort of questions that were in the interview.

And yeah... I think the Shacknews article itself was fine. I can understand people wishing the speculation part hadn't of been there, but we have to ask ourselves honestly... if the same article had been about id or Bungie (or whatever developer you don't really follow closely)... wouldn't you have had the same questions about them? And that is for developers that don't have the crazy DNF development history on top of it.

I know if roughly 1/3rd of id left in the course of 3 months my eyebrows would raise and wonder why... and I wouldn't be surprised to see a story about it.

RedSplat, on Sep 4 2006, 11:45 AM, said:

I still wonder who the 'traitor' was that gave the scoop to Shacknews.
Could it really have been an ex-3DR employee?  :) 
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


That's an interesting perspective to take.

If I were to guess based on some of the sort of inquiries *I've* gotten and ignored... it wasn't any one person. Remember, the people who have left almost all started looking for new jobs, and I know I'm not the only one who interviewed or at least touched base with multiple other developers. Everyone going to Gearbox had inquired about opportunities with other developers, or even interviewed with them. So this wasn't really news within the industry itself and that sort of word just spreads. Add in developers talking to their other developer friends about leaving/joining with a new developer and it's really not a "scoop" for a "traitor" to give out.

In other words it was inevitable and I'm honestly impressed it stayed out of the media attention as long as it did. I imagine the departures last week were what tipped the scales for the Shacknews guys to finally feel it was important enough. Based on stuff Maarten and Chris have said since it's clear they had sat on all the stuff leading up to last week and not done anything with it. For example they didn't run a story about me leaving, unlike many other places. So it's a bit silly to call it a scoop or think there needs to be any traitor.

Or think about it like this: If an employee wanted to "lash out" at or attempt to hurt 3DR... don't you think they would have by now? I think that through all the years of development everyone who has been a part of that project has been very professional and agreeable about the entire thing despite clear problems in the past which some even George has come forward with years later. I think everyone should be glad that this professionalism has been maintained and hope that it will continue to be maintained. Nobody needs an open discussion of the pros and cons of the internal situation at 3DR and so far no such discussion has come up. The Shacknews article doesn't really even scratch the surface of that sort of discussion and is mostly the factual reporting of employees combined with some speculation of the implications and reasons.

That's why when George said "you're only getting one side of the story"... he's actually right but not in the way I think he intended it. The public has ALWAYS only gotten 3DR's story. Can you recall a single employee who has "told their side"? The public gets some pretty detailed tidbits of info from time to time that are fully 3DR's story, as well as anytime a news situation does come up (departures, Take 2, etc) it is also the 3DR story in response.

And honestly that's as it should be and everyone should continue to be supportive and glad that it's been that way up until now. Current and ex-employees have not told their perspectives for the past 9 years out of professionalism, respect, etc.

Contrast this with how things went down with other people that left 3DR in the past (Ritual, RBR). They were very free with their opinions, etc. So I think it's a bad idea to start going down the "traitor" route or to suggest any of the people are out to get 3DR. These are good guys (from 1997 till 2006) and we've all worked hard to promote the positive image of DNF and 3DR because we cared about the project that much, we have friends there, it's the right thing to do, etc. No place is perfect which means that of course there are complaints and frustrations... but have you ever heard them from the employees of 3DR?

No.

And there is no secret that the delays are a good reason to complain through the years. That's just natural... but not once has a current or ex-3DR employee gone out there to give their perspective.

So let's keep it that way and not accuse people of being traitors or attempt to belittle Shacknews guys for reporting what was already pretty widely spread information that was going to surface eventually. I know this because anybody that attempted to email me had a more complete story than what was published... so even if I had wanted to respond them... there wouldn't have been anything to add.
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User is offline   avatar_58 

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#38

"Traitor" isn't the correct word. Assuming there was no contract of silence, theres nothing wrong with voicing one's frustration for a job even if its a supposed close lipped affair. Whoever spoke to Shacknews did nothing wrong, once again assuming 3DR themselves doesn't ask their employees to be silent.

After all it IS just a game company, not a life altering product. Some people forget that.
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User is offline   kaisersoze 

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#39

Wieder, on Sep 4 2006, 06:07 PM, said:

Now you're just being silly.


"Our sources indicate that while the game's team has reached a size of about 24-28 developers, recently it has been closer to 18, meaning these current departures may actually comprise a majority of the team[I]. Several sources have indicated that further information regarding these matters is expected next week."

Not trying to be silly. If you read the above carefully, it's very easy to arrive at a team consisting of 7-8 members.

"Recently is has been closer to 18, meaning these current departures may actually comprise a majority of the team."

While I think they meant the team was 28 people and 10 have left=18, it's easy to confuse them saying that recently the team consisted of 18 people and *then* 10 people left.

Poorly worded imho. A few fans even contacted me privately thinking the team was that low.

I guess some clarification would be justified in this situation. :)

If I want to be silly, I could say that a "It's done" announcement is pending for next week and all of this is some huge conspiracy from keeping the fans off the trail. B)

Anyways, it sounds like there's still a very healthy number of developers at 3drealms with more coming in.

Not all doom and gloom I guess.

However the one thing that has been puzzling me are these rumors about something else pending regarding the situation/3drealms/DNF that apparently will be addressed within the next few weeks.

I had my own theory on what that *could* have been but after reading your post above, I doubt it's what I thought it was.

All aboard the crazy train!!!!!!!!!!!!
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User is offline   Splat 

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  #40

I just used the harsh word "traitor" because there's this secrecy surrounding 3D Realms and it looked like some trust was broken when i read the article on Shacknews, no matter how insignificant. The hidden source encouraged speculation.
I didn't mean or try to discredit anyone of the people who left, it was just something that crossed my mind at the time of posting. It's not my perspective.
It's hard not to jump aboard the train of drama and speculation or make silly assumptions, even if you know it's all no big deal. :)

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User is offline   Alan 

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#41

kaisersoze, on Sep 5 2006, 10:55 AM, said:

"Our sources indicate that while the game's team has reached a size of about 24-28 developers, recently it has been closer to 18, meaning these current departures may actually comprise a majority of the team[I]. Several sources have indicated that further information regarding these matters is expected next week."

Not trying to be silly. If you read the above carefully, it's very easy to arrive at a team consisting of 7-8 members.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


No. :) Aside from the heavy dosing of conspiracy mix that's been thrown in by the anti-DNF gamer majority, even the math you're implying is there just can not make sense.

Abstraksjon: når man tror at noe gjør det enklere, men fører til at det blir komplisert.

"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea as it eliminates any genetic tendencies towards fanaticism."
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User is offline   ultra tree 85! 

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#42

kaisersoze, on Sep 2 2006, 09:41 AM, said:

Also, I want to clarify that just because 10 veteran staff members left the team, doesn't mean the employees who are there now are incapable of doing the game justice.


I agree, and they also still have some veterans, like Steven Cole, John Anderson, Allen H. Blum III, Ruben Cabrera, and of course George himself. :)
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User is offline   4lex 

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#43

hello
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User is offline   Alan 

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#44

Welcome aboard, there. :)

Abstraksjon: når man tror at noe gjør det enklere, men fører til at det blir komplisert.

"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea as it eliminates any genetic tendencies towards fanaticism."
-Carl Sagan
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User is offline   kaisersoze 

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#45

Sure they still have a few veteran guys there.

I'm just of the opinion that something major recently went down with the game(within the last say 6 months or so) and things don't look good for the game imo.

With the amount of veteran talent that up and left these last few months, it's alarming and not good for the game. If the game were anywhere near close to being done, they wouldn't have left, bottom line.

My only guesses are that another restart took place, major portions of the game were scrapped or development of the game has been suspended.

I've said it once, I'll say it again. It's fucking frustrating trying to make heads or tails of what the hell is going on with the game.

We're being kept in the dark as usual and I'm at the point of giving up on the game.

I get the feeling that posting in the 3dr DNF forum is just a waste of time and energy at this point.

I'm really fucking bummed out.
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User is offline   Cerberus_e 

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#46

After all these years I'm still amazed at how DNF is part of the factors that make some people happy.

For most people it's:

- Having a house to sleep with all basic resources like water and food: 20% happy
- Having luxury things like the internet: 20% happy
- Having friends: 40% happy
- having a girlfriend: 20% happy.

For some other people it's:

- Having a house to sleep with all basic resources like water and food: 20% happy
- Having luxury things like the internet: 20% happy
- Having friends: 40% happy
- having NO girlfriend: 20% happy.

But for people like KaiserSoze it's:

- Having a house to sleep with all basic resources like water and food: 20% happy
- Having luxury things like the internet: 20% happy
- Having friends: 10% happy
- having a girlfriend: 0% happy.
- DNF doing well: 50 PERCENT HAPPY!! B)

:)
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User is offline   St3amb0 

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#47

kaisersoze, on Sep 25 2006, 06:11 AM, said:

Sure they still have a few veteran guys there.

I'm just of the opinion that something major recently went down with the game(within the last say 6 months or so) and things don't look good for the game imo.

With the amount of veteran talent that up and left these last few months, it's alarming and not good for the game. If the game were anywhere near close to being done, they wouldn't have left, bottom line.

My only guesses are that another restart took place, major portions of the game were scrapped or development of the game has been suspended.

I've said it once, I'll say it again. It's fucking frustrating trying to make heads or tails of what the hell is going on with the game.

We're being kept in the dark as usual and I'm at the point of giving up on the game.

I get the feeling that posting in the 3dr DNF forum is just a waste of time and energy at this point.

I'm really fucking bummed out.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


i say the developers left 3DR because they where done with their part on DNF, maybe the same thing as in the dev-progress of Stalker...
And as Joe said all is fine with DNF...why should he lie us?! :)
i really look forward to the news on shacknews...but they guy on shack announced that some weeks ago, so i'm wondering when these special news pop up!
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User is offline   kaisersoze 

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#48

Cerberus_e-I own my own home, have a successful career, am happily married and have 2 wonderful sons. Trust me, I know where my priorities are. :)

DNF and it's saga are pretty much just entertainment for me at this point. I think if George pulls out whatever stops may be *potentially* hindering development, we'll eventually get a kick ass game. I'm just not holding my breath at this point. And for former developers to tell Shacknews off the record that they doubt DNF may ever ship at this point is a very telling sign.

I want this game badly but it just feels like bad comedy trying to talk about it(because there's really nothing left to talk about over there). Anything remotely interesting or "controversial" gets a lock/or delete in the DNF forum. I really don't understand why they keep it open at this point.

And the "we don't want you to know where we're at development wise" ie: Area 51 after 10 years is just bad business for 3drealms towards it's fans.

I understand them not wanting to talk about spoilers/plot points/characters as you want the experience to be fresh for the player.

I have an issue with being a fan of the game and not having the slightest clue whether I can look forward to playing the game at some point.

I honestly don't think that's the way to go.

As I've said in the past, would the fans really be that upset if George were to come out and say "Guys, the game is still a year or so out. Things are going well but we have hit some bumps along the road. We are keeping current tech, there was not another engine switch. This game will ship with the tech we have now. It's simply a matter of creating/programming in the remaining content we feel will truly give you guys a kick ass game. We appreciate the support you give us and you can look forward to a kick ass Duke Nukem game. Not too much longer!"

Don't know about you guys but I'd feel a hell of alot better if George came out and said something along those lines.

But it ain't gonna happen so oh well.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------

St3amb0i say the developers left 3DR because they where done with their part on DNF, maybe the same thing as in the dev-progress of Stalker...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------

That's already been discussed and denied. Why would you walk away from your royalties/bonuses if arguably one of the biggest and most waited for pc games of all time was about to ship? That makes absolutely no sense at all.
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User is offline   Splat 

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  #49

^
Money isn't everything...
Especially not when you are talented and doing creative work.
Wouldn't be very healthy to 'hang around' for royalties. :)
People may bargain for more than a big pay packet, W.I.D.
For example, opportunities to advance their careers.

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User is offline   Cerberus_e 

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#50

St3amb0, on Sep 25 2006, 02:56 PM, said:

And as Joe said all is fine with DNF...why should he lie us?!  :)
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Because there would be a riot if he said DNF is hopeless?
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User is offline   Alan 

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#51

kaisersoze, on Sep 25 2006, 12:11 AM, said:

I'm really fucking bummed out.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


This is ultimately the point of the news posting on that site, not revealing the truth.

Abstraksjon: når man tror at noe gjør det enklere, men fører til at det blir komplisert.

"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea as it eliminates any genetic tendencies towards fanaticism."
-Carl Sagan
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User is offline   ultra tree 85! 

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#52

kaisersoze, on Sep 24 2006, 09:11 PM, said:

Sure they still have a few veteran guys there.

I'm just of the opinion that something major recently went down with the game(within the last say 6 months or so) and things don't look good for the game imo.

With the amount of veteran talent that up and left these last few months, it's alarming and not good for the game. If the game were anywhere near close to being done, they wouldn't have left, bottom line.

My only guesses are that another restart took place, major portions of the game were scrapped or development of the game has been suspended.

I've said it once, I'll say it again. It's fucking frustrating trying to make heads or tails of what the hell is going on with the game.

We're being kept in the dark as usual and I'm at the point of giving up on the game.

I get the feeling that posting in the 3dr DNF forum is just a waste of time and energy at this point.

I'm really fucking bummed out.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I think that they wouldn't have another re-start because George has recently stated that they just want to finish it and he said before that they wanted to finish on what they have. I think that the veterans left because they were tired of working on DNF and wanted to go somewhere else, not because of anything that happened with DNF. When a couple of them left, they might have convinced the others to leave too, because they all knew each other very well. Four of them went to Gearbox, so one of them might have convinced the other people who went there to leave, because they thought it'd be nice to still work together, and so it might have been kind of like a chain reaction that started after just a couple of people left. They have tons of stuff done, so they're probably just trying to put the game together, like George said. :)
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User is offline   Kristian Joensen 

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#53

ultra tree 85!, on Sep 25 2006, 10:04 PM, said:

I think that they wouldn't have another re-start because George has recently stated that they just want to finish it and he said before that they wanted to finish on what they have. I think that the veterans left because they were tired of working on DNF and wanted to go somewhere else, not because of anything that happened with DNF. When a couple of them left, they might have convinced the others to leave too, because they all knew each other very well. Four of them went to Gearbox, so one of them might have convinced the other people who went there to leave, because they thought it'd be nice to still work together, and so it might have been kind of like a chain reaction that started after just a couple of people left.  They have tons of stuff done, so they're probably just trying to put the game together, like George said.  :)
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Charlie has said in a post on the Gearbox forums that those who now work at Gearbox independently chose Gearbox so it wasn't planned or a conspiracy.

Frightfan: Should we wait until GT is persuaded to release the entire Blood source code?

Matt Saettler: Don't know about the Blood source from lith. I doubt they'll release it.

Frightfan: [Jason Hall] already said he would if it were up to him, but it isn't - it's GTI's game now.

Matt Saettler: Jace is wrong. I'm the one that negotiated the contracts. Jace probably doesn't even know what's really in them....
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User is offline   ultra tree 85! 

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#54

Kristian Joensen, on Sep 25 2006, 02:49 PM, said:

Charlie has said in a post on the Gearbox forums that those who now work at Gearbox independently chose Gearbox so it wasn't planned or a conspiracy.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


That isn't exactly what I meant to say. I meant that they probably decided to go over there just because they were getting tired of being at the same place for so long, and because one of them went to Gearbox, the others decided to go because their friends were there.
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User is offline   Jamin 

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#55

Afternoon, This is a first post here but I have been on the 3D Realms site for long time.

This is a little off the wall but bear with me.

I have a theory on what is going on inside 3DRealms and why the game is taking so long and why people have recently left.

If you have ever worked on a piece of "art" or something that you made that was going to be shown to your friends, when you first start out it looks cool, and as you get close to finished you want to change some things that looked good at first. If you walk away for a few days and come back, it dosent look as good anymore. Soon you just want to start over.

By the same token, if you see a movie, the first time it looks great and it is very exiting. The second time it rocks, but if you watch it after a few years have gone by, very few movies still look good. They dont look fresh and new like the way you remember it.

Apply this to making a game. That great idea for a new level rocks. And you get it done and say "they wont see that coming" and after you have worked on it for two years, and seen it literaly 200 times, its not fresh, or new, or fun. And then you dont want to have it in there, you want to make something that is fresh and new and "they wont see that coming". If George is a perfectionist as many have said, he may get to the 20th run through and say, "na lets change this, it dosent have the wow factor I am looking for". Well it would to me and you.

This "could" be why the developers are frustrated and leaving. Its not because its not good or even the greatest of all time, it may just be that George sees his creation too much.

Not all, but you have to think of a few games that you have played that you went back through for a second time, and by the third time you just flat lost interest. After the first time you played it you called a friend and said "you ahve got to get this game it rocks and this one part is so cool. After the second time you know whats coming and you didnt call anyone and tell them to buy it right now, your going to love it. You have been there and done that, and on the first run it was a surprising and brought a smile to your face, but by the third it was corny or just boring. Imagine if you were on your 200th run through a game.

Maybe and I am saying this is an out there theory...... Maybe George is so close to this that he has lost sight that the general public will love it and have fun with it. Maybe he looks at scenes and says to himself "thats really not as funny as I thought, lets redo that". When we would be belly laughing.

Could this be the reason for long development and long term people leaving? Not pointing blame, but you guys tell me, dont they usually script a game and then make it, done deal. Chart the levels, write the script, and then send the animators to make it? It seems they are just writing as they go and if that is the case then it will never be funny enough, or clever enough, because the joke is only funny once. They have to set the script and levels and lock it just like they do with Tech.

I hope that you understand what I am saying, any thoughts?
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