[CruX]

When I started learning how to alter the cameras in Duke I got an inspiration to work on a mod that would have a third person perspective with fixed camera views like in Resident Evil. When I started working on it (and even up to the present moment), I was just doing it as a sort of personal project, but I figured I may as well throw it out there on the forums to see what people think. Since the mod itself has relatively simple aim ( just one monster, only a few weapons and levels, etc ) it doesn't involve a lot of work on my part, but making it is getting pretty damned boring too (just making it, mind you, not playing it) so before I bother going too far with it, I want to see what people think of it, both as a concept and in terms of how I've managed to create it. The coding is essentially done. All I need to do is tack on some fluff like different sound effects, spent shell casings when the player fires a weapon, etc. I'm also using DT's code for the scantrail so if he doesn't want me to use it, I guess I'll have to come up with my way of doing that.

Here are some screenshots and a video. Lemme' know what you think.



Since I (sadly) couldn't use polymer on my Daggerfall mod I'm making, I decided to use it for this.



http://www.youtube.c...h?v=3h1Jc_BgTEc

Because the sectors are darker than hell in mapster (they're only lit by the lights in polymer) it might be hard to make some of the stuff in the video out, but it gets the point across, and the gloom itself looks good in game.

[Simon_Croes]

That's a great idea. A new way in the duke3d universe of gameplay. Looks awesome =)

[The Commander]

That's very good, I like that.

If you don't finish it or something happens make sure to release what you have. I'm sure someone would pick it up.

[Mblackwell]

Nice. I've done some experiments with 3rd person cameras before and it always makes the game feel so different. You may as well keep it up, since I don't think anyone's ever released anything completely based on that perspective. It will be a fresh experience.

[The Commander]

I always had a great idea for a mod in that perspective but sadly thats all it stayed as, an idea.

I would like to this this go further as Jonathan said.

[MetHy]

Survival Horror being my favourite genre, I'm liking this a lot.

The camera angles are very good except perhaps the 2nd one imo.
In the 2nd angle the camera is on the ground, aiming up (sorry I forgot the technical terms for camera angles, the ones used in cinema... I used to know them but oh well..).
If you think about it this kind of angle is hardly ever used in SH games except when it is to show something special, unusual. There is a reason for that: with such an angle the character will look bigger than it really is and therefore stronger.
Most of the times it's the opposite kind of camera angles which are used: the camera is near the ceiling, aiming down, making the character look smaller, weaker.

That's why I would suggest to either:
- change that angle like I mentioned
- make it so that it shows something special, unusual. Perhaps it could be blood stains or a corpse on the ground just in front of the camera, or perhaps the first time you see that angle there is a zombie (or perhaps even the first zombie ever in the game) walking in front of it. This way you would only see his legs at first which would be really creepy.

A few other recommendations if you don't mind:
-What about removing all the usual stats at the lower part of the screen altogether, and putting them in a separate menu like in most survival horror games? I would also recommend a menu like in Resident Evil: Outbreak, that is to say something semi-transparent that you see while still seeing the game screen, and which does not pause the game when going through it.
-Footsteps. LOUD footseps. Perhaps even more sound effects altogether (although the video is too short to tell if you've used a lot of sounds or not). I have also noticed that while being very good and moody, the music is too low in volume compared to the sound of the gun. I know this can be easily fixed in the options of the game but please make it default so that the music is actually higher in volume.
-Use another character sprite. The point of SH games is to feel weak. With a character like that we are being reminded of how badass we are when playing Doom. I don't think it fits at all.
-Are there puzzles or at least item puzzles?

As a Survival Horror fan and connaisseur, and as Duke3D fan as well, I would really love to contribute in any way I can. To prove you how much survival horror means to me I can tell you that I've been playing on a livestream dedicated to survival horror games (and horror games in general) since late march with a few other people. With some of these people we are even creating a site for survival horror games at the moment.

If you need somebody I would gladly betatest, for exemple.
I have another HUGE mapping project going on at the moment, but perhaps I could even help you on this side if you need anybody. I have even already made a few sectors in the same style (big mansion, using duke's original textures, etc). It's very small though and HEAVILY inspired by the mansion of RE1 (this was just done for fun on a spare time).
Just take it as an exemple of what I'm able to do in this style, not as something use-able:
http://i101.photobuc...in3/faggot3.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m51/Cor...3/CORRIDOR2.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m51/Cor...n3/CORRIDOR.jpg


edit:
I just realized 2 other things when rewatching the video:
- at 10 seconds, the zombie is biting the player, however he seems rather far from being able to do so...
- at 48 seconds, it looks like the player is able to aim up/down. Considering the controls and the perspective, I think it's pointless and can just end up being confusing. Plus, it looks kind of awkward since you can actually see that the sprite doesn't actually move his arms to aim in other directions.
I'd recommend to get rid of it. (while it is hard coded, you can just turn mouse aiming off by default and remove the use of "U" key manually, as well any other key linked to aiming up/down. Any player will be able to set them back again if he wants to though).

[CruX]

I'm surprised the reaction was so positive. Guess I'll work on finishing the mod's code

MetHy, on Dec 22 2009, 10:06 AM, said:

Survival Horror being my favourite genre, I'm liking this a lot.

The camera angles are very good except perhaps the 2nd one imo.
In the 2nd angle the camera is on the ground, aiming up (sorry I forgot the technical terms for camera angles, the ones used in cinema... I used to know them but oh well..).
If you think about it this kind of angle is hardly ever used in SH games except when it is to show something special, unusual. There is a reason for that: with such an angle the character will look bigger than it really is and therefore stronger.
Most of the times it's the opposite kind of camera angles which are used: the camera is near the ceiling, aiming down, making the character look smaller, weaker.

That's why I would suggest to either:
- change that angle like I mentioned
- make it so that it shows something special, unusual. Perhaps it could be blood stains or a corpse on the ground just in front of the camera, or perhaps the first time you see that angle there is a zombie (or perhaps even the first zombie ever in the game) walking in front of it. This way you would only see his legs at first which would be really creepy.

A few other recommendations if you don't mind:
-What about removing all the usual stats at the lower part of the screen altogether, and putting them in a separate menu like in most survival horror games? I would also recommend a menu like in Resident Evil: Outbreak, that is to say something semi-transparent that you see while still seeing the game screen, and which does not pause the game when going through it.
-Footsteps. LOUD footseps. Perhaps even more sound effects altogether (although the video is too short to tell if you've used a lot of sounds or not). I have also noticed that while being very good and moody, the music is too low in volume compared to the sound of the gun. I know this can be easily fixed in the options of the game but please make it default so that the music is actually higher in volume.
-Use another character sprite. The point of SH games is to feel weak. With a character like that we are being reminded of how badass we are when playing Doom. I don't think it fits at all.
-Are there puzzles or at least item puzzles?

As a Survival Horror fan and connaisseur, and as Duke3D fan as well, I would really love to contribute in any way I can. To prove you how much survival horror means to me I can tell you that I've been playing on a livestream dedicated to survival horror games (and horror games in general) since late march with a few other people. With some of these people we are even creating a site for survival horror games at the moment.

If you need somebody I would gladly betatest, for exemple.
I have another HUGE mapping project going on at the moment, but perhaps I could even help you on this side if you need anybody. I have even already made a few sectors in the same style (big mansion, using duke's original textures, etc). It's very small though and HEAVILY inspired by the mansion of RE1 (this was just done for fun on a spare time).
Just take it as an exemple of what I'm able to do in this style, not as something use-able:
http://i101.photobuc...in3/faggot3.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m51/Cor...3/CORRIDOR2.jpg
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m51/Cor...n3/CORRIDOR.jpg


edit:
I just realized 2 other things when rewatching the video:
- at 10 seconds, the zombie is biting the player, however he seems rather far from being able to do so...
- at 48 seconds, it looks like the player is able to aim up/down. Considering the controls and the perspective, I think it's pointless and can just end up being confusing. Plus, it looks kind of awkward since you can actually see that the sprite doesn't actually move his arms to aim in other directions.
I'd recommend to get rid of it. (while it is hard coded, you can just turn mouse aiming off by default and remove the use of "U" key manually, as well any other key linked to aiming up/down. Any player will be able to set them back again if he wants to though).

I appreciate your interest, let me clear some things up. First of all, even though I didn't want to use the doom guy, I didn't really have much choice. I want the player sprite to reflect the current weapon he's carrying, and doom guy is the only sprite set I know of that's been given a variety of weapons.

I don't know that it would be so easy to disable mouse aiming since, I'm quite certain, most keys can only be ignored by setting RETURN to a nonzero value in the event that corresponds with what key is being pressed (and I didn't see an event for mouse aiming) . In any event, I don't want to disable aiming anyway since there might be a circumstance in which the player needs to aim above or below himself. Aiming isn't so terrible thanks to the DT's scan trail.

The zombie is, indeed, pretty far away from the player when he bites him, but I copy/pasted those zombies from Zombie Crisis (deliberately, of course) so all I need to alter is the distance that must be between the zombie and the player when it attacks. Since you brought that up, though, the zombie's actually shooting a custom bullet-type projectile when he attacks the player. I did this because the player explodes into jibs if he's killed by an addphealth command. Changing some stuff in the APLAYER actor might fix that, but I tried my hand at it and didn't get anything to change, so for the time being, this method works.

Camera angles do, by in large, need to be placed towards the ceiling but that would be more-so to help the player aim than anything else. I want to keep them varied, however, so it's just going to take some experimenting. Do bear in mind that this hasn't even really been started in terms of level structure, so things will grow as I figure out some better strategies for camera placement. I plan on adding footsteps and other things to help create the atmosphere (that's chiefly the reason I'm using polymer for this), but that's just kind of a finishing touch to add once I get the bulk of the work done.

Depending on where I go with this and what happens with creating the levels, I'll take you up on your beta testing offer

[BrOiler1985]

That looks really, really cool!

[Sangman]

It's indeed cool but the environments need to be brighter. There's a thin line between "scary darkness" and "annoying because I can't see shit".

[CruX]

Sangman, on Dec 27 2009, 10:51 AM, said:

It's indeed cool but the environments need to be brighter. There's a thin line between "scary darkness" and "annoying because I can't see shit".

Believe me, it's brighter in game. Not by leaps and bounds, but you can tell where stuff is. I'm not really sure why it came across so dark in the vid and screens.

[NerdZilla]

omg, that camrea fix is amazing... =) there are so meny maps with ROR designs i could make to this.
this is grate work... all i can do is mapping and designing guns. i made the gun from contra. =(A)=

PS: if someone could do a top down veiw cam. then we could get into the range of gauntlet in map designs and detail?
as long as i can control the cam angle, ROR maps are easy for me to make.

[Sebastian]

I would love to do something with this if you finish it.

I'm thinking disabling mouse aiming completely (but break it down to optional I guess) and use an auto targeting function (again, optional?). If an enemy is offscreen then display an icon at the edge of the screen to show where the enemy is at. The ability to quickly swap between multiple enemies would be sweet too.

I'm thinking of the possible potential of merging that code with an alien map/mod.

[EHCB]

Aw man! I love it!

[Merlijn]

That looks great and very atmospheric!

[Danukem]

It looks good, but I can tell from the movie that it must be very difficult to control. As Rusty suggested, some kind of strong auto-aiming system would be a good idea.

[NerdZilla]

well... heres a simple idea. sense the cam is running still... maybe make it like a bluesceen and place a 2D image for each backround.?
or maybe have only some camreas move with the player?

still this is awesome.

[MetHy]

DeeperThought, on Dec 29 2009, 08:45 AM, said:

It looks good, but I can tell from the movie that it must be very difficult to control. As Rusty suggested, some kind of strong auto-aiming system would be a good idea.

We've already discussed similar stuffs about survival horror and fixed cameras over MSN once if you remember, and I think you have never actually played a survival horror game with such cameras and so called "tank controls" before. I think that's the only reason why you think it's confusing, because you're not used to the perspective.

The aiming system Rusty suggested is good, and it's actually what we have in a lot of survival horror games, but it's not mandatory. Although at the moment thing it WOULD be better than what we see in the video since like I suggested, the ability to aim up/down in such manner should be removed completly.

The ability to strafe should also be removed.

Quote

f an enemy is offscreen then display an icon at the edge of the screen to show where the enemy is at.

I do not like this idea at all though. This is very un-horror like and removes any scare from HEARING the monsters but not knowing exactly where the are. It also removes one of the main purpose of having such a camera system: having a limited vision on the surroundings and the enemies.

[CruX]

MetHy, on Dec 29 2009, 07:55 AM, said:

We've already discussed similar stuffs about survival horror and fixed cameras over MSN once if you remember, and I think you have never actually played a survival horror game with such cameras and so called "tank controls" before. I think that's the only reason why you think it's confusing, because you're not used to the perspective.

...You directed that to DeeperThought? Bro, you've got balls I never had.

Aiming takes a bit of adjustment at first, but I got used to it quite quickly. It's really no different than Resident Evil. If you've played that, you've played this. Don't know if anybody's realized it yet, but since nobody's pointed it out, the player has to 'aim' before they can fire (essentially holding down the turnaround key) and during that time, the player's movement locks out, and the scantrail shows up. Thanks to the feedback, though, I am thinking of trying to add something that would be akin to an auto aim, if only to make it easier to hit enemies. Running a findnearactor command for zombies while the player's aiming, then forcing him to face the nearest one he finds. Of course, I'd have to think of a way to cycle between potential targets, and this would only kick in if a zombie was relatively close by. Dumb idea?

[Danukem]

EmericaSkater, on Dec 29 2009, 07:08 AM, said:

Thanks to the feedback, though, I am thinking of trying to add something that would be akin to an auto aim, if only to make it easier to hit enemies. Running a findnearactor command for zombies while the player's aiming, then forcing him to face the nearest one he finds. Of course, I'd have to think of a way to cycle between potential targets, and this would only kick in if a zombie was relatively close by. Dumb idea?

Since you are already using the scan trail from Duke Plus, you might want to look into using some code from the auto-aiming system that goes with it. The way it works is, when you are in F7 mode, tapping crouch will attempt to lock on to a nearby enemy. At that point the player will face the enemy until it is dead or not in line of sight, and the scan trail turns red. I did use findnearactor, but for your mod, you might want to eschew the findnearactor stuff and put active enemy IDs in an array. Then you can easily cycle through them, etc.

[MetHy]

EmericaSkater, on Dec 29 2009, 04:08 PM, said:

...You directed that to DeeperThought? Bro, you've got balls I never had.

I never said I directed anything, Bro.

Quote

Aiming takes a bit of adjustment at first, but I got used to it quite quickly. It's really no different than Resident Evil.

There is one major difference: right now your aiming system is like in RE4 (once you're aiming you are free to move in any direction easily) except while keeping the perspective of classic RE games.
In itself, it's not a bad idea.
But my point is that since I presume you do not have localized damage on the monsters body, having RE4-like aiming is completly pointless and will only make the game more confusing and more difficult to play than necessary, more difficult for bad reasons (bad unnecessary controls).

So yeah the best thing is to switch to a classic RE aiming system (like we've been talking about) with auto aim lock. Like in RE3.

That or you could actually keep the system you currently have and add a real localized damaged system: something REALLY cool like for exemple being able to shoot the knees of the zombies (perhaps even have the leg "explode") and having them crawl on the ground afterwards. But that would take an AWFUL lot of work on the sprites of the enemies like creating new ones, which is something nobody will want to do.

[CruX]

MetHy, on Dec 29 2009, 07:41 AM, said:

I never said I directed anything, Bro.

...Uhm, okay.

DeeperThought, on Dec 29 2009, 07:26 AM, said:

but for your mod, you might want to eschew the findnearactor stuff and put active enemy IDs in an array. Then you can easily cycle through them, etc.

I'll see about starting an auto aim out nice and simple, so the cycling can wait, but I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'active enemy ID' as an array, or how I'd get it to function without findnearactor.

[Jimmy]

No offense to Dan at all, but what exactly are you trying to imply that he has balls for? We're all equals here, mate. Except for maybe TX and his lady, that guy could ban me! (Ol' Yattix is a softy, I tell ya!)

[CruX]

Captain Awesome, on Dec 29 2009, 10:22 PM, said:

No offense to Dan at all, but what exactly are you trying to imply that he has balls for? We're all equals here, mate. Except for maybe TX and his lady, that guy could ban me! (Ol' Yattix is a softy, I tell ya!)

Because he's masterminded nearly everything I want to learn about scripting with eduke. Don't get me wrong, I try to be diplomatic with everyone. and he isn't the only person that's helped me get over some of my own ruts. But burning a bridge with someone that coded the best enhancer for duke and helped make WGR2 isn't on my to-do list.

[Danukem]

EmericaSkater, on Dec 29 2009, 11:12 AM, said:

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'active enemy ID' as an array, or how I'd get it to function without findnearactor.

I mean you declare a gamearray, then you fill its elements with the sprite IDs of active monsters (taking care remove dead ones from the array and move the rest around to fill emptied spots as needed). The monsters could put themselves in the array when they first activate. You could have them all execute a certain state when they start running code. Don't worry about it if it sounds mysterious; you can do an adequate job using findnearactor in combination with canseespr. But having them in an array makes it much easier to decide which target would make the most sense, since you would have access to all of the active monster IDs instead of just the one that you found with findnearactor. It would also be useful for other stuff, like radar.

[The Commander]

Captain Awesome, on Dec 30 2009, 07:22 PM, said:

No offense to Dan at all, but what exactly are you trying to imply that he has balls for? We're all equals here, mate. Except for maybe TX and his lady, that guy could ban me! (Ol' Yattix is a softy, I tell ya!)

What you lookin' at? You all a bunch of fuckin' assholes. You know why? You don't have the guts to be what you wanna be? You need people like me. You need people like me so you can point your fuckin' fingers and say, "That's the bad guy." So... what that make you? Good? You're not good. You just know how to hide, how to lie. Me, I don't have that problem. Me, I always tell the truth. Even when I lie. So say good night to the bad guy! Come on. The last time you gonna see a bad guy like this again, let me tell you. Come on. Make way for the bad guy. There's a bad guy comin' through! Better get outta his way!

[Sangman]

EmericaSkater, on Dec 30 2009, 09:39 AM, said:

But burning a bridge with someone that coded the best enhancer for duke and helped make WGR2 isn't on my to-do list.

Relax, DT is (AFAIK ) a mature person and surely a person who criticizes him in one way or another won't suffer his eternal wrath..

[Sinisterambo]

MetHy, on Dec 29 2009, 03:41 PM, said:

...which is something nobody will want to do.

I do but don't know how. If its not too hard to learn I would give it a go.

[CruX]

Figured I'd go ahead and post another video, but this time I cranked the ambient lighting level up to .75, so you can actually sort of see what's going on. In game, though, it looks pretty good at .25 (what I had it on for the first video).
Don't get too excited about the R.E door effect. It's based on DT's sleeping code (which I'd planned to use right from the get go), but it's not quite complete. In fact, there's a kink in it right now that I've yet to work out, so I might end up having to trash it completely and start all over on it.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=CCUqQoSYTDA

[BrOiler1985]

That is really awesome! Happy new year @ all btw.

[Sangman]

Nice, aim system is gonna need some work obviously (rather than have the player aim manually you could do it Metroid-style). Also I don't think the door transition effect thing is very necessary, it's just gonna get annoying if you need to open a lot of doors.