[NNC]

It's kinda interesting nobody mentioned Travis yet (other than me). It would be absolutely huge to see the guy returning and creating his own monuments with atomic textures and TROR even.

[ck3D]

NNC, on 22 March 2026 - 02:14 AM, said:

It's kinda interesting nobody mentioned Travis yet (other than me). It would be absolutely huge to see the guy returning and creating his own monuments with atomic textures and TROR even.

Personally didn't mention him only because he had been brought up before and plus he just makes sense by default, but I obviously agree. When I was a kid I remember I thought E3 was pretty shit (not awful, but more milquetoast than the rest because it dragged on and diluted its hits, not the same as if it had been all Flood Zones and L.A. Rumbles) and so I would have DC installed on my computer most of the time and just peek into Shrapnel City occasionally for a ride, I think my few relatives who were Dukers at the time also did the same thing. He probably is more important to Build history than most, in that not only were his layout contraptions smart, ambitious for the time, and his levels prolific, his style was a direct part of the experience on par with Levelord's levels and just one notch down contractualization. Even to this day it still influences mappers, for instance sebabdukeboss rarely maps but whenever that happens it always is the 4T's, Travis Trademarks Throwback Time - maze-like spiderwebs of hallways and rooms that all click and connect, he actually is low-key really good at it. If you ever play Alien Armageddon, you'll find sebab has made levels such as Smithsonian Terror 2 (literally) (edit - I only just now remembered MC84 also worked on it), and we once worked on a map 50/50 (Dukeboss Studios) where he had a whole museum interior with exhibits started, but no exteriors and generally sloppy technique (due to only being so familiar with the depths of the editor), I went to finish it for him and it really was an inspiring experience (I usually hate retouching other people's levels, but I also hate to see good levels stabbed by entry level jank) - I hadn't really done that style in forever at that point, but was slapped in the face with a reminder of the potential and fun of it, and it legitimately made me want to incorporate the genre again a little more in my own user levels. And so in a way I was inspired by Travis twice historically, once personally and then much later, once again by proxy.

By the way to conclude on sebab, after I finished that one map I remember I went through like a week where I went back to his other AA maps to iron them out of the same little mistakes I had noticed he was making or technicalities he was overlooking, not that they absolutely needed the clean-up but the layouts just worked so well in the Travis style (that I was down to study again), such maps had to be technically and visually flawless, and it was some fun and easy back-and-forth because I think we both shared the Travis sensibility and so it was normal for me to read exactly what sebab was going for in his designs, and just refine it in that precise direction a little. But editing someone else's work always is tricky so in that sense I hope I didn't fail. Dukeboss Studios I did make a bit combat-heavy but orchestrating the enemy encounters around the corresponding exhibits was impossible not to do, and I made sure none of his designs could break.

Travis clearly would enjoy TROR, for some reason (go figure) I feel like he would use it the way Forge now uses it. Speaking of Forge, he probably isn't so low on the Travis scale (indoors to outdoors ratios, etc.), and everyone probably should replay all of his stuff again sometime for it is great.

But yeah it is funny to think in a way there is a parallel universe where Travis was Blum's sidekick and Levelord the expansion guy, because there really are so many folks in practice who grew up with DC/Beach and just never really went back to Shrapnel. Something as dumb as having to uninstall something being a task at some point (and so people possibly not bothering) can go a crazy long way. To a lot of players the add-ons weren't just novelties but registered as actual updates of the game ('semi-official' status of the contents also helps blur the line).

Heck I just remembered stumbling upon a Reddit post not so long ago where one person was so confused (made an actual thread), because they had played Nuclear Winter their entire childhood, and now looking up 'Duke Nukem 3D' out of nostalgia was returning lots of images of aliens but almost none of snowmen.

[NNC]

ck3D, on 22 March 2026 - 08:16 PM, said:

Personally didn't mention him only because he had been brought up before and plus he just makes sense by default, but I obviously agree. When I was a kid I remember I thought E3 was pretty shit (not awful, but more milquetoast than the rest because it dragged on and diluted its hits, not the same as if it had been all Flood Zones and L.A. Rumbles) and so I would have DC installed on my computer most of the time and just peek into Shrapnel City occasionally for a ride, I think my few relatives who were Dukers at the time also did the same thing. He probably is more important to Build history than most, in that not only were his layout contraptions smart, ambitious for the time, and his levels prolific, his style was a direct part of the experience on par with Levelord's levels and just one notch down contractualization. Even to this day it still influences mappers, for instance sebabdukeboss rarely maps but whenever that happens it always is the 4T's, Travis Trademarks Throwback Time - maze-like spiderwebs of hallways and rooms that all click and connect, he actually is low-key really good at it. If you ever play Alien Armageddon, you'll find sebab has made levels such as Smithsonian Terror 2 (literally) (edit - I only just now remembered MC84 also worked on it), and we once worked on a map 50/50 (Dukeboss Studios) where he had a whole museum interior with exhibits started, but no exteriors and generally sloppy technique (due to only being so familiar with the depths of the editor), I went to finish it for him and it really was an inspiring experience (I usually hate retouching other people's levels, but I also hate to see good levels stabbed by entry level jank) - I hadn't really done that style in forever at that point, but was slapped in the face with a reminder of the potential and fun of it, and it legitimately made me want to incorporate the genre again a little more in my own user levels. And so in a way I was inspired by Travis twice historically, once personally and then much later, once again by proxy.

By the way to conclude on sebab, after I finished that one map I remember I went through like a week where I went back to his other AA maps to iron them out of the same little mistakes I had noticed he was making or technicalities he was overlooking, not that they absolutely needed the clean-up but the layouts just worked so well in the Travis style (that I was down to study again), such maps had to be technically and visually flawless, and it was some fun and easy back-and-forth because I think we both shared the Travis sensibility and so it was normal for me to read exactly what sebab was going for in his designs, and just refine it in that precise direction a little. But editing someone else's work always is tricky so in that sense I hope I didn't fail. Dukeboss Studios I did make a bit combat-heavy but orchestrating the enemy encounters around the corresponding exhibits was impossible not to do, and I made sure none of his designs could break.

Travis clearly would enjoy TROR, for some reason (go figure) I feel like he would use it the way Forge now uses it. Speaking of Forge, he probably isn't so low on the Travis scale (indoors to outdoors ratios, etc.), and everyone probably should replay all of his stuff again sometime for it is great.

But yeah it is funny to think in a way there is a parallel universe where Travis was Blum's sidekick and Levelord the expansion guy, because there really are so many folks in practice who grew up with DC/Beach and just never really went back to Shrapnel. Something as dumb as having to uninstall something being a task at some point (and so people possibly not bothering) can go a crazy long way. To a lot of players the add-ons weren't just novelties but registered as actual updates of the game ('semi-official' status of the contents also helps blur the line).

Heck I just remembered stumbling upon a Reddit post not so long ago where one person was so confused (made an actual thread), because they had played Nuclear Winter their entire childhood, and now looking up 'Duke Nukem 3D' out of nostalgia was returning lots of images of aliens but almost none of snowmen.

Interesting, I treated poor ol' Shrapnel City the same way and left DC as E3 for some years back then, I thought I was alone, even got some discord bullying for this opinion. Never thought you and others did the same.

TBH despite the shortcomings, I think Travis is much more effective as the spinoff/expansion guy, Levelord was better as Blum's second in command, and SC is much more traditional Duke than DC/Caribbean.

I think it's kinda like the Casalis were for Doom. Romero created the mainline canonic artstyle, Sandy was his second banana, and Casalis created something else. Except that Plutonia put the difficulty bar much higher, Travis's achilles heel has always been his weak monster placement (it got improved when Caribbean got released though).

[ck3D]

I suspect it was a common (not universal) impression at the time that DC sort of was, the 'real' episode 3 or 4 or something; the natural continuation of the story, also because it was this much more rooted into real-world landmarks and thus felt like a logical extension of the base game's 'realistic' pretension. The new .art style also doesn't clash (albeit some of it, mostly unused, is hilarious: signs with typo's, impossible colors, strange offsets, photo of old-school PC as flat sprite...); mix of it with old was just right. Metro Mayhem felt like Rabid Transit 2, etc. I think everybody who experienced DC at least at the time (but there has to be some timeless linearity too) probably felt the same thing, and reacted the same. It's just not official canon but popular canon if you will and so only us folks can tell it, but we all can. It is collective perception stemming from the core instrinsics of the product, not exclusive to DC either (or Duke, or gaming, etc.), for instance very similarly you have a shit ton of people who all seem to share one common wavelength when reminiscing about Duke 64 (flashes of larger/more detailed levels, weapon physics, liminal no-music etc.)

I know some people consider Beach to feel more like a true sequel though (I can see it - gimmick in the visuals is compensated by more traditional layouts), so really has to do with personal experience including the odds of which add-ons, versions, etc. one ran into and context in which they discovered them. But the possibly differing factors/triggers/responses are finite and so it is logical there is cultural overlap, for it is the fiber of product and how design speaks. Then it kind of starts becoming more interesting when you realize people also can project in common based on shared conditioning/stimulus, but that is going out of scope.

[NNC]

ck3D, on 23 March 2026 - 05:45 AM, said:

I suspect it was a common (not universal) impression at the time that DC sort of was, the 'real' episode 3 or 4 or something; the natural continuation of the story, also because it was this much more rooted into real-world landmarks and thus felt like a logical extension of the base game's 'realistic' pretension. The new .art style also doesn't clash (albeit some of it, mostly unused, is hilarious: signs with typo's, impossible colors, strange offsets, photo of old-school PC as flat sprite...); mix of it with old was just right. Metro Mayhem felt like Rabid Transit 2, etc. I think everybody who experienced DC at least at the time (but there has to be some timeless linearity too) probably felt the same thing, and reacted the same. It's just not official canon but popular canon if you will and so only us folks can tell it, but we all can. It is collective perception stemming from the core instrinsics of the product, not exclusive to DC either (or Duke, or gaming, etc.), for instance very similarly you have a shit ton of people who all seem to share one common wavelength when reminiscing about Duke 64 (flashes of larger/more detailed levels, weapon physics, liminal no-music etc.)

I know some people consider Beach to feel more like a true sequel though (I can see it - gimmick in the visuals is compensated by more traditional layouts), so really has to do with personal experience including the odds of which add-ons, versions, etc. one ran into and context in which they discovered them. But the possibly differing factors/triggers/responses are finite and so it is logical there is cultural overlap, for it is the fiber of product and how design speaks. Then it kind of starts becoming more interesting when you realize people also can project in common based on shared conditioning/stimulus, but that is going out of scope.

While I think Metro Mayhem is a much more realistic subway level than Rabid Transit, the latter still somehow belongs to the core game more. It's a bit disappointing level in terms of design and concept (like some others in E3 and a few more in E2/E4, it was rushed into production, and lots of creative stuff had been chopped), but the way it looks and plays, is much more 3DRealms, than Metro, which has it's tags of "expansion" or "user map" written to it with the kinda one dimensional, often bland gameplay. Maybe Broussard's pesky quality control is the one missing, he would have asked more lively elements that keep levels interesting.

You're spot on with Caribbean though. The monsters and weapons were replaced with questionable gimmicks, but some of the levels themselves were much closer to canonic Duke concepts than DC, Wieder's Wavemistress and Boss level especially, but also Travis's Lost Lagoon and also Full House. In terms of Travis, his closest map to a "3DRealms" style Duke was Lost Lagoon itself.

When I said I want him to return, I don't necessarily want him as an official mapper, just how far he can go with the current tools and standards. BTW I'm not familiar with Alien Armageddon, but TBH I see William Gee as the closest spiritual successor of Travis in terms of construction.

[ck3D]

Oh - William Gee comparison with Travis is interesting, I had never really seen it before but now that you've pointed it out I clearly do in maps such as WGHotelHell or WGKneeDeep (well in many more, WGAbyss etc. but in those it is blatant). It is true whenever he makes indoors/hallways, for the past few years it has been a lot of TROR use to expand/connect space(s) in a similar way Travis would have done it, except Travis didn't have TROR so all he could do was 2D plane connections, whereas WG can go 3D by adding floors and not just side segments/automap regions. I.e.. modern WG map is like a Travis map flipped on its side, or also developed on the vertical axis (so literally with an extra dimension). I just realized now typing this out it kind of is what I am currently doing too, which again now sounds like a proxy case seeing as it took seeing WG do cool things with TROR for me to realize it actually had untapped gameplay potential and I had to learn it, so if that is Travis influence (which it may be) then confirms he really is this present in collective subconsciousness. Realistically though, it has to be more of a case of different people running into the same type of compulsive practice and harmless outlet, there is something neurotic (certainly therapeutic or it wouldn't feel satisfying) to patching that style of levels together (and then possibly stitching even more on top), and Travis would be the first notable known case.

Always saw Will more of a Levelord disciple who fell into the druid's cooking pot and absorbed all of the walls (in the best way possible), for instance in AA WGDracula (Resistance episode, last map) essentially is The Abyss x10. But his love for 3D floors and stacked spaces predates TROR, e.g.. the first WGCity may as well be a TROR map (before it was invented) just using traditional sprite bridges and structures everywhere rather than sectors in how it traverses. Or his bits of OGBB (the First). Speaking of OGBB, I know I would be particularly interested in your thoughts about the second installment if you ever found the bravery and spare time to jump into it. I feel like you would have a sharp reaction to it, but I don't know if/how adverse. Actually I would recommend WGAbyss first and foremost, but I feel like I've sung its praises to you several times before and I'm not even sure to this day whether or not you have played it. I suspect you may be into what it goes for, especially in the alien levels of the latter half; or at the very least you would have something to express about it.

[NNC]

Personally I wasn't a huge fan of WGAbyss, for various reasons. They looked pretty cool and everything, but always felt it was just the original on steroids and dragged on too long with a bit pedestrian gameplay. The WGCities also had this issue for me.

While he was always an elite mapper, and really liked the original WGRealms back in the day, I think he found something in the last two years as his last 4-5 maps are the ones that truly reached a new, rather commercial alike standard. Lady Killer and Knee Deep (also Slick Willy or Terraform) took a concept, and used intuitive (and less pedestrian) ways to turn the visually good maps into a memorable adventure. Sometimes his new textures that were working (WGSpace 2 Redux is also fantastic), sometimes the atmosphere (Knee Deep), but these maps weren't just looking good, but they offer some unique moments other than "get the next key, fight the next wave" stuff. Knee Deep 2 is something I wait more now, than anything else for this game.

[ck3D]

Isn't Terraform one of the WGAbyss maps? Can't check right now but unless I am confusing it with a different one, then I think it's my main favorite of the alien maps in the episode that I was mentioning. (EDIT - oh I see now Terraform is in WGPandora, I was thinking of Gravidam & Battagalia) I think your sentiment sounds valid regarding the first half of that episode, where it really is just Abyss stretching for longer, just so happened to me that the nostalgia x new scale really worked on me the first time (the one that most matters), felt like something Levelord genuinely would have made in 1996 if people had modern hardware/EDuke limits and tech. Of course can be argued small scale levels in D3D tend to work better and so Expander on them not necessarily ammo wisely spent, but in the case of Abyss in particular the small scale experience already exists and so the whole novelty is to enlarge and inflate with more layers of depth, sometimes concept. But I think I remember (been a while since I last played it) halfway through the episode really becomes more of its own thing with original construction, Fusion Station/alien textures and creative layouts (IMO more Blum-styled with the corridors, passageways etc.), those are the true core in my opinion. Then culmination is pure WG hotpot but personally I love the visuals and creative use of the engine and assets, gameplay-wise can see why some would not be into it but really I find fitting, I've seen people complain about little cover during the boss fight but in a way that also means direct confrontation with raw Battlelord evil design complete with cheap hitscan.

Regarding the style of the first maps, WGDracula level I was bringing up essentially is that but even taller and bigger, the AA character you play as in that episode has a gliding ability and so it's basically giant Abyss where you go up an actual mountain all the while perfecting the ability and an air current mechanic on the way (which you need to have a decent grasp of for the final fight/sequence). You encounter lots of cool landmarks/regions as you climb, the journey is clearly chaptered in its sequencing but the next turn always surprises you, and there is a massive landmark (and bonus adventure) rewarding you at the very top. Pretty insane it even is possible to narrate this much that is going on in a single level.

I too would love a WGKneeDeep 2. (WGHipDeep?)

[Merlijn]

Confession time: I didn't play the DC expansion until the enhanced version in Alien Armageddon. The heavier focus on real life landmarks definitely makes it stand out from all the other episodes, the only thing we got in the OG game is the Hollywood sign in the distance. Overall I prefer the design of the Carribean episode.

As for Maarten Pinxten, I just replayed MPrail and I think it's still a very enjoyable map. My only real knock against is that the central doors to the outdoor area never open, which would have made more sense progression-wise. I agree that the train platform is the standout part of the map, it looks more like one of the smaller train stations around Amsterdam rather than the central station itself but still very cool. About the linear trend at the time, I think Halflife played a huge part in that. Mapping and technology changed so fast around that time, people predicted that the DN3D community would quickly die. Indeed, in MPresort there's a literal copy of a HL-puzzle towards the end. I still really like that map, when it comes to "on-rails" maps there are much worse examples.

(you could also argue that OG maps like Toxic Dump and Critical Mass were "Halflife before Halflife", but that's a completely different discussion )

[ck3D]

About the enhanced DC in AA, AFAIK it actually changes quite a fair bit, the levels were expanded and in big part redecorated, the enemy encounters redone from scratch etc... I think Forge was tasked (or tasked himself) with the changes and he went all in, as a result feels and plays like an AA episode now (which makes sense as it is supposed to be absorbed into the main AA storyline continuity, so is a success in that sense) but not so much like the original D3D Duke It Out In D.C. episode. On the other hand I don't think AA Beach changed so much. Maybe you would be surprised (and find it interesting) if you played the original D.C., it had a specific grit that resonated with the base game that the AA makeover takes away (because it swaps it out for AA stuff). Not necessarily saying your preference would change though, level design of both (DC and Beach) is apples and oranges.

[Aleks]

I always thought DC basically happened between the three original Duke 3D episodes and Atomic, which I thought the final scene (Duke's statue being hit with a shrinker - suggesting protector drones) kind of tried to put together. But it might also be a play on Duke's ego...

Haven't played Caribbean until around 2012 though and in retrospect, I think it is overall a better episode than Duke DC, even if nostalgia plays a role in how I view DC (which is still very good as well).

I also kind of agree with WG and Travis comparison - I also see a lot of similarities in their styles and was pondering if it is worth suggesting in this thread before stumbling upon NNC's post. I would say it's mostly the general impression of the maps - focus on large scales and strong, huge shapes, but paying less attention to the small details.

[ck3D]

Aleks, on 28 March 2026 - 05:04 AM, said:

I also kind of agree with WG and Travis comparison - I also see a lot of similarities in their styles and was pondering if it is worth suggesting in this thread before stumbling upon NNC's post. I would say it's mostly the general impression of the maps - focus on large scales and strong, huge shapes, but paying less attention to the small details.

That would be shared Levelord influence, no?

[Aleks]

ck3D, on 28 March 2026 - 05:58 AM, said:

That would be shared Levelord influence, no?

Hmmm I wouldn't say that, my impression of Levelord style is completely different - more like "sculpting" and "patchworking" things together. I would say Travis was a lot closer to Blum than to Levelord.

[ck3D]

Aleks, on 28 March 2026 - 08:52 AM, said:

Hmmm I wouldn't say that, my impression of Levelord style is completely different - more like "sculpting" and "patchworking" things together. I would say Travis was a lot closer to Blum than to Levelord.

Ah I think as one of the first mappers with professional pretense he just did the right thing to make sure he would produce levels that would respect the tone and line of the base game and its design, and so it would be logical he must have studied both Levelord and Blum a lot (rather than looking at what other people were producing as user maps perhaps; would have made sense back in 1996 for someone with high standards to look up to, and take notes from 'the good stuff'). I see traits he would have inherited from both in his style, Levelord for open scale and Blum for tighter scale/indoors (but not so much in terms of aesthetics but interconnections). Still he had his own touch, with visuals that shared some sensibilities with the originals but also experimented with possibilities (e.g.. Smithsonian decorum), and less ambitious (but not prevalent?) use of SOS, for instance Smithsonian (again) kind of feels like a Blum layout someone would have whack-a-mole'd and squashed the SOS pumpkin of into a bowl of soup, instead of feeling like a stack feels unusually spread out. Metro Mayhem has pedestrian progression but layout had that type of potential too, on the other hand some of the outdoor areas in the first maps of DC (White House, Capitol maps) feel very Levelord (especially the little sector sculptures and columns feel like something LL would have made). And then if you take a look at, or even just remember Anslem it is a given how much he appreciated that style (and FWTW I think I remember it is, or used to be one of WG's favorite user maps).

[MC84]

ck3D, on 14 March 2026 - 02:14 PM, said:

High Treason releasing episodes. jimbob, dandouglas, MC84, Leon for IF for examples of WIP Build projects stacking up...

Cheers for the shout-out. I continue to be occupied with my own personal project so I'm not sure if I'll ever map again for duke3d, but let's just say that 'you're yet to see my true power level'

[NNC]

Aleks, on 28 March 2026 - 08:52 AM, said:

Hmmm I wouldn't say that, my impression of Levelord style is completely different - more like "sculpting" and "patchworking" things together. I would say Travis was a lot closer to Blum than to Levelord.

Patchworking is a bit mean description of Levelord. We shouldn't forget his maps were either started by Blum (Warp Factor) or heavily scrutinized by Blum/Broussard (Abyss), or even had to modify DM maps into a SP level in the nick of time (Fahrenheit, Movie Set, etc). Sometimes he had to cut maps to reach the framerate standards (ie Rabid Transit, Bank Roll). In many aspects, his E5 maps are the most telling of what his calibre and style truly is.

What seems to me the most notable element of his maps that they are very lively. They are full of shadows, sound effects, have very cool monster placement moments. He is completely different to guys like Travis. In fact, Travis is the opposite of Levelord. His maps have large scales and massive, more realistic buildings, but they are often feel emptier in terms of gameplay. Levelord's maps often feel nonsensical, but they live and move fast.

[ck3D]

NNC, on 01 April 2026 - 06:47 AM, said:

Patchworking is a bit mean description of Levelord. We shouldn't forget his maps were either started by Blum (Warp Factor) or heavily scrutinized by Blum/Broussard (Abyss), or even had to modify DM maps into a SP level in the nick of time (Fahrenheit, Movie Set, etc). Sometimes he had to cut maps to reach the framerate standards (ie Rabid Transit, Bank Roll). In many aspects, his E5 maps are the most telling of what his calibre and style truly is.

What seems to me the most notable element of his maps that they are very lively. They are full of shadows, sound effects, have very cool monster placement moments. He is completely different to guys like Travis. In fact, Travis is the opposite of Levelord. His maps have large scales and massive, more realistic buildings, but they are often feel emptier in terms of gameplay. Levelord's maps often feel nonsensical, but they live and move fast.

That is a good point about Levelord's E5 maps arguably being his most 'pure', although I still think the Abyss should be the standard. One point I could make also doubles up as one aspect I also really respect the maps for: Levelord pretty much just pretended going along with the world tour theme but really very much did his thing, in the Moscow and Paris maps, once past the equivalent of just a few rooms with the visible parallaxed city skies to sell the location and a few hallways that might as well have been exercise, 10% of the level in it is full reversion back to classic Levelord style with huge indoor spaces or big tunnels and caverns. London map is more explicit, being so much large open space that is structured in the patchwork fashion except with urban textures. It most probably wasn't that (or maybe subconsciously so) but it always amused me to interpret that as, 3DR treated Levelord so poorly around Atomic, getting him back on for WT must have taken all kinds of effort and even when he did agree to the terms for the new project eventually, in a creative way he only really did so much, and kind of had the last word in that sense.

[ck3D]

@NNC this is o/t, but as a continuation from the 'purest' map talk, the multimillion dollar question - what would you say Blum's is? Asking because I think I know what my answer to that question would be and now since you've brought the concept to the table, am wondering if we would happen to land on the same one.

On topic: I was just remembering how good NY00123's map Pyratel was, earlier. Definitely wouldn't mind seeing more from the author, not necessarily anything as ambitious (Pyratel was ambitious, actually would recommend if into the Travis style).

[NNC]

ck3D, on 02 April 2026 - 02:01 PM, said:

@NNC this is o/t, but as a continuation from the 'purest' map talk, the multimillion dollar question - what would you say Blum's is? Asking because I think I know what my answer to that question would be and now since you've brought the concept to the table, am wondering if we would happen to land on the same one.

On topic: I was just remembering how good NY00123's map Pyratel was, earlier. Definitely wouldn't mind seeing more from the author, not necessarily anything as ambitious (Pyratel was ambitious, actually would recommend if into the Travis style).

Good question, because my sentiments technically apply to Blum as well as he had to make levels for Broussard's standards, but in reality he was the game's main creator along with Replogle, he made the main concepts, all the assets in the game are made for his style. Levelord entered the scene later, had shorter time to adapt. But in terms of pure (polished and uncompromised) works, I go with Fusion Station, Dark Side, Derelict, Mirage Barrage, Golden Carnage. The last two are his main E5 maps with the most focus, the former ones are with the cleanest concepts. I think maps like Freeway and Duke Buke Burger are pretty close to the "pure" term as well. E1 maps, as good as they are, went through several changes, particularly the first two maps, and the same can be said about most E2 maps. They are more "going forward" than playing around a concept.

Regarding your previous post, I agree that Levelord's E5 maps are not his bests, they are cheaters with the terms of "world tour" concept, as those glitzy arts are there to replace actual layouts. Modifying all of them to vanilla assets would be an interesting idea to see what a modern Levelord usermap would look like. It's just they are totally uncompromised from 3DRealms quality and cutting policies. In terms of quality, I think his best is obviously The Abyss, followed by Warp Factor, Flood Zone, LA Rumble and Sewer.

The purest maps of his in the original episodes are the niche secrets levels, particularly Lunatic Fringe and Tier Drops. I think they were his "babies", as he preferred MP over SP and loved the tricks of the Build Engine SoS. His Quake levels were also like this, quite niche and play around tricks.

[ck3D]

Thanks for the thorough reply, clearly is more difficult to answer than for LL (I did like LL's E5 maps by the way, just couldn't not notice and be amused by how he essentially 'made a duck', Battle Chess style). All great picks and points; so, my original observation that had prompted my question was, lately I have been studying LD layouts quite a bit (which is way easier now that all D3D maps have pictures of their guts wide open on the DN Fandom; can be casually looked at, no longer needs to studied in the editor), trying to research where Blum's sensibilities to symmetry and SoS may have started (conclusion ultimately remaining what I suspected all along: they always were there, and direct heritage from his 2D level design habits, if anything the final 1.3D maps show more restraint). All of the mapping, choices, etc. are interesting but there is one specific episode where it especially caught my attention and it is Suck Hole (the one where you start on a prison island - later repurposed into Death Row - then explore underwater bases and ocean floors). Particularly because a couple of those maps seem to rely on a similar principle that was later taken to greater scale in Golden Carnage - big underwater segment with matching surface areas and different sections or holes you can emerge in/out of, to access different regions or micro-regions. Of course the LD levels didn't have just that going on for them but interconnected land/more technical than abstract layout at the surface too, just peppered around various poles, which GC also does. And so it is funny because I usually am vocal in my appreciation for Blum's classic works (Freeway, etc.), and I never even really played WT, but it just became so much more apparent looking at those LD maps the intent (or elan) behind GC, it really is all of Blum's favorite tricks organized into a big level that had become possible to make/commercially release, and wouldn't have to be split into tinier bits (LD style) at the expense of all kinds of ratios. And that is when I realized we had just been discussing pretty much the same thing in this thread recently, but about LL.

Something else I noticed that is pretty funny is, for a few years now I had been perplexed by how come Blum's silent teleporters (whenever he uses them) usually feel so flawless, they may be the only ones that have ever duped me and made me believe 'actual connection' when playing (for a long time I thought a lot more of E2 was SoS than it really is, etc.). But now studying the LD maps I think also helped answer that for me, they have more SoS - especially around the water areas - when in the final game those tend to be completely disconnected and separated from the dry regions on automap (but here they are built directly around the overlapping sectors), so now I am fairly convinced at some point must have been established in the direction that automaps shouldn't look too messy with sector stacks and so the busiest ones cleaned up by the means of some SoS dismantling and silent teleporters where/when possible. Or maybe was lighter and he was just told not to overdo SoS so much at some point around 1995. The original (multi-floor) transport elevator disappearing in the middle of dev probably didn't help either, but anyway would confirm there really were clearly marked steps in the production where 1/ Blum got blackout drunk on Build with machine mode on, then 2/ spent all of the next day cleaning up the flat and making sense of why someone just found his car keys in his fridge.

You can mass swap textures around Build/Mapster maps very easily. You need to know: Numpad Enter to flip between 2D/3D mode, then in 3D mode Tab to store a specific in cache, and Alt + C whilst pointing cursor at any wall or sprite to replace every similar type instance of its tile around the map with the one you have in Tab. This will only change picnum and respect all of the other object properties and so is safe, worst case scenario some replacements might look ugly/stretched if the replacement texture is a different res. (There is another, more appropriate method than Alt + C if you ever need to change skies.)

P.S.. re: Golden Carnage, almost forgot, but it also has a big Santa Monica Pier vibe from before that was turned into Flood Zone.

[slacker1]

NNC, on 24 March 2026 - 12:26 AM, said:

While I think Metro Mayhem is a much more realistic subway level than Rabid Transit, the latter still somehow belongs to the core game more. It's a bit disappointing level in terms of design and concept (like some others in E3 and a few more in E2/E4, it was rushed into production, and lots of creative stuff had been chopped), but the way it looks and plays, is much more 3DRealms, than Metro, which has it's tags of "expansion" or "user map" written to it with the kinda one dimensional, often bland gameplay.

Side stepping, but speaking of the Rebid Transit, I always loved the N64 redesign of the level over the original. I feel like that version finally made the level feel 'finished'. I know me and my friends played a ton of Duke matching back in the day in it.

Anyone have any idea who was the mapper for that one and if they did any other maps outside of the Duke 64 levels?

Also speaking of OG E3, that's where I spent most of my Dukematching back in the day. I always liked it over E1 (E2 was, IMO, the worst). I'm surprised to hear that it's ranked poorly.

Aleks, on 28 March 2026 - 05:04 AM, said:

Haven't played Caribbean until around 2012 though and in retrospect, I think it is overall a better episode than Duke DC, even if nostalgia plays a role in how I view DC (which is still very good as well).

I'm in the same boat here. I owned (and still do... CDs are on the shelf behind me right now...) Duke DC and Nuclear Winter from back in the day but never bought Caribbean. I didn't end up playing it until around the same time as you and I'm glad I finally did. Honestly, I'd rank it higher than both DC and NW even though style wise it's the biggest departure from the original Duke style.

[ck3D]

slacker1, on 02 April 2026 - 11:53 PM, said:

Anyone have any idea who was the mapper for that one and if they did any other maps outside of the Duke 64 levels?

I actually looked that up a while back, game credits level design to two people (conveniently forgetting the names right now, sorry), one seeming like the supervisor of the other who I would suppose was doing the actual mapping work, and their profiles are online and public. The latter went on to make level design for the next 007 game on the N64 that was not Goldeneye (IIRC, The World Is Not Enough? I've never played that) then career in gaming seemingly stopped. Other guy who seemed to have more of a management role kept doing that for a long time working on larger and larger game projects, maybe is active still even (been a long time since I last was curious and looked).

[lllllllllllllll]

ck3D, on 03 April 2026 - 12:16 AM, said:

I actually looked that up a while back, game credits level design to two people (conveniently forgetting the names right now, sorry), one seeming like the supervisor of the other who I would suppose was doing the actual mapping work, and their profiles are online and public. The latter went on to make level design for the next 007 game on the N64 that was not Goldeneye (IIRC, The World Is Not Enough? I've never played that) then career in gaming seemingly stopped. Other guy who seemed to have more of a management role kept doing that for a long time working on larger and larger game projects, maybe is active still even (been a long time since I last was curious and looked).

Having played both Duke64 and TWINE on splitscreen for years I still cant' connect the styles of maps together.
If he had any sort of influence over the single players map I could see the underwater section of Meltdown being his work like the addition of the submerged elevator shafts in Flood Zone. There is a lengthy stretch of hall you must ascend that is just far enough to have you begin running out of air.

[ck3D]

Slightly o/t but for the lack of a better spot where to share this and since we were just discussing the Beach add-on, somebody (Telee529 on ModDB; is that 'our' Telee?) has been working on a fan sequel, just ran into the page, looks pretty cool: https://www.moddb.co...uke-caribbean-2

Am already curious to see how/where the mapping will/won't fall in line with the OG episode, would rather retain that surprise until whenever it releases than spoiled to me though. My first impression (might pivot completely later) is this looks a lot like Travis, but DC Travis in Beach settings which is intriguing.

[Aleks]

ck3D, on 06 April 2026 - 02:53 AM, said:

Slightly o/t but for the lack of a better spot where to share this and since we were just discussing the Beach add-on, somebody (Telee529 on ModDB; is that 'our' Telee?) has been working on a fan sequel, just ran into the page, looks pretty cool: https://www.moddb.co...uke-caribbean-2

Am already curious to see how/where the mapping will/won't fall in line with the OG episode, would rather retain that surprise until whenever it releases than spoiled to me though. My first impression (might pivot completely later) is this looks a lot like Travis, but DC Travis in Beach settings which is intriguing.

I'm pretty sure it's the same Telee, he's quite active on Discord about his mod and this looks like a large extension over the original Caribbean, with inclusion of TROR, some new graphics (even a Caribbean enforcer which is normally replaced by the inflatable sea monster). I particularly liked how smooth a plane map screenshot looked, made with proper TROR which in retrospect seems to be something always missing from the plane maps.

Re: topic (or off-topic, i.e. Blum/Levelord/original levels):
As I have played DN64 much later than the original game, I have mostly disliked the changes to the levels. Some stuff was conceptually cool (Rabid Transit visible from RLD), but the quality of new work was sticking out too much, especially in more heavily modified levels (IIRC Fahrenheit fire station offices were the worst offender).

I would say the most "pure Blum" levels are Hollywood Holocaust and Dark Side. The first one being probably the "most engineered" one to be a proper, "cinematic" (no pun!) starter to the game, and DS for being his "best of both worlds" kind of level.

For Levelord, Flood Zone (which is also hands down the best level in the game) is where his style really shines the most, The Abyss is obviously great, but also kind of more an "acquired taste", Flood Zone is just all that's the best in Duke condensed into a single level.

[ck3D]

Flood Zone is great, but I feel like it has Blum DNA, it is repurposed from an older map called Santa Monica Pier and it is unclear if Levelord started it, or if it was something Blum had started, put aside, and Levelord finished. But the whole level exemplifies the pools of water/Suck Hole inclination of Blum's I was on about just earlier. I don't think Levelord generally did underwater so much? Mostly seems to be Blum remnants (or original, but more simple contraptions) wherever it happened. There also is how Blum liked remaking real-life settings in Build (and the map has the clock tower), while Levelord mostly just wanted to go nuts, which some of FZ does (all of outdoors) but otherwise it is suspiciously technical. So I'm not sure I would buy FZ as pure LL map, seems closer to an unfinished Blum level he tied together (probably still 50 to 80% of the work). But it does show how both could work well together and is a highlight of the game/franchise.

[Telee]

Aleks, on 08 April 2026 - 02:41 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure it's the same Telee, he's quite active on Discord about his mod and this looks like a large extension over the original Caribbean, with inclusion of TROR, some new graphics (even a Caribbean enforcer which is normally replaced by the inflatable sea monster). I particularly liked how smooth a plane map screenshot looked, made with proper TROR which in retrospect seems to be something always missing from the plane maps.

Yep, that's me. After working on this project silently for many many hours, it's nice to see that there's interest in it.

Originally I was avoiding TROR (just didn't want to learn it really), but it's a huge asset. Some concepts I had would've been impossible without it. But I've also learned to use it sparingly. At this point I'm trying to avoid it wherever possible, just because it's a bitch to work with, especially for large outdoor areas, and it eats through walls like crazy. But I do love it, especially for underwater sections. The Inflatable Sea Monster is its own actor now instead of replacing the enforcer (a limit imposed by v1.3d I think) so they're both in the game.

ck3D, on 02 April 2026 - 11:18 PM, said:

You can mass swap textures around Build/Mapster maps very easily. You need to know: Numpad Enter to flip between 2D/3D mode, then in 3D mode Tab to store a specific in cache, and Alt + C whilst pointing cursor at any wall or sprite to replace every similar type instance of its tile around the map with the one you have in Tab. This will only change picnum and respect all of the other object properties and so is safe, worst case scenario some replacements might look ugly/stretched if the replacement texture is a different res. (There is another, more appropriate method than Alt + C if you ever need to change skies.)

This... actually would've saved me a lot of time earlier lol. What is this alternate method for changing skies?

[ck3D]

Telee, on 08 April 2026 - 02:11 PM, said:

This... actually would've saved me a lot of time earlier lol. What is this alternate method for changing skies?

Store desired sky in Tab, 3D mode point at sky you want to change, and Ctrl + Alt + Enter (maybe there is a Shift somewhere in the mix, I don't really look at my keyboard I just hit it, but I know it's a chord of three).

Will paste all of the attributes you would want from a sky, e.g.. picnum, shade, pal... but none of the ones you wouldn't (ST's...) to all of the skies of the region.

Two things to keep in mind: this changes skies by area, determined by whether or not a complete cutoff exists somewhere in the parallax (so that the next area with parallax is completely disjointed; i.e.. operation can get around an arch, but won't get past a tunnel).

And seeing as this doesn't override the 'sloped' flag, if you have sloped skies anywhere in an area, you want to copy/Tab off one of those so that the 'sloped' flag also spreads around, even to places where the ceiling slope is 0 doesn't matter since then only means activating the flag there will have no consequences; whereas copying/Tabbing off flat ceiling will spread the 'not sloped' flag, and ruin your sloped skies (only visually; the data is still there, values, etc... so just need to spread the flag again anywhere in the area to 'fix').