[Bruno]

Hi !
I'm thinking about trying to add to BRUNOHH3 map a mini-boss build out of child-sectors, sprites, SE shooters and MSFX, the only way to kill this "turret monsters" would be to activate with switchs a huge seenines explosion (so, the fact of killing a monster would work with SE explode, like the effect of a crack in a wall or on a floor, including some decoratives sprites from this "monsters" using Hi-tags to let them fall and disappear with the explosion).
Just an idea for the moment, not sure if it could render properly. In Doom 2, level 30, the flat icon of sin works this way more or less (with less effect indeed and by being just a simple wall with the special Romero head sprite) or the Worm in Opposing Force (it's a true enemy but you must kill it to go to the next chapter). I've got this little idea by talking with Quakis of my Battelord fight in BrunoHH2.
Does someone already create this kind of "turret/child-sector" huge enemy in its map ? (So I could check some of your ideas before starting something in mapster32) Or maybe someone already try and it wasn't very good in game ?
Thank you !

[ck3D]

You should check out some of Zaxtor's maps (R.I.P.), he used to craft bosses like that all over the place - maybe just go and look at Oblivion/Trequonia TC playthroughs on YouTube though, as the levels themselves always were notoriously hard to navigate, if you just want to catch a glimpse of the possibilities without struggling through cryptic progression for hours beforehand. His bosses generally involved extra .con code IIRC, but it's possible to make some nice ones relying on nothing but the base effects combined just right.

I've made a couple of them too (in unreleased maps I'm dropping soon), whether or not the impression works on the player (and the enemy as a mechanic) really all comes down to the quality of the execution. There's a lot to do with playing with mask walls and negatives (High Treason has a great video on those) when it comes to the literal design, and then the immersion is best achieved by keeping the player busy by a side objective (so that they're constantly distracted from the relatively 'static' look) which means you really have to think ahead about the arena and its mechanics, to craft a cinematic experience more so than just a battle.

[quakis]

Without writing new code and sticking to vanilla Duke3D, the closest I can think of is the final area from It Lives, by Gambini. If I recall, the "boss" is part of the map and involves some puzzles to "kill" it. Might be a good reference point based on what you're looking for.

[Bruno]

Thank you to both of you. Going to check these maps . I'm not about making something really difficult. No code, no *.con modification. I would like my map being playable the easy way, just copie it and play without extra con files and code. Hope I will manage to do something !

[ck3D]

Bruno, on 21 December 2022 - 09:31 AM, said:

Thank you to both of you. Going to check these maps . I'm not about making something really difficult. No code, no *.con modification. I would like my map being playable the easy way, just copie it and play without extra con files and code. Hope I will manage to do something !

The couple I already have going on do work relying on nothing but Duke 3D's stock effects (even if the rest of my project features some new code), so it's definitely possible to come up with something 'vanilla' that works, the base game already permitting a lot of manipulation, I'm sure you'll pull off something cool. My experience crafting mine really taught me how orchestration was everything, so it might help a lot throwing out ideas on paper there, then organizing them all the while letting more come over time (and filtering them) as the vision matures into the right combo. One is better off coming up with such scenes as if they were writing a movie script; planning ahead also ensures the surrounding, actual level layout is optimally articulated around the sequences, too. The better they will feel 'integrated' into the map's design and logic, the less static, even when relying on really rudimentary tricks.

Something I did do whilst trying to figure out all the right effects for the sequences I had in mind that also really helped was experimenting with all of their possible combinations individually on a micro scale throughout smaller instances of visual/cinematic 'pieces' around the different previous levels (could also be just test maps). Grants bonus points for coherence when the boss mechanics are an extension of something the player has already gotten to catch a glimpse, and get acquainted with the style of; but mostly ensures you know every plan that you have for each stage of the battle will work before you get to the actual execution, that way, if something turns out not to function as intended then it's minor work that's wasted and nothing that affects the big picture. The place you want to avoid at all costs is getting halfway through the making of a rather complicated sequence and then realizing a key part breaks and suddenly jeopardizes your whole idea.

Another interesting boss fight no one has mentioned yet is the final one in High Treason's Dimension Shift.

[oasiz]

From the old buildporn thread:

Spaceship (subway fx), combined with drop floor.
Sector.extra determines the speed and random seed in this case, which gets zeroed out by drop floor.

Rest is cosmetics and fakery around it.

[Aleks]

"Final bosses" of It Lives and Dimension Shift mentioned here already are probably two of the finest examples of this, the one in It Lives relying more on the "design" and the one in Dimension Shift on pure and raw mechanics. Ck3d forgot his giant slimer sector boss thing in his Poison Heart, which was pretty cool and memorable as well. The closest I came to a "sector boss" must have been the alien spaceship in Freezing Fear (3rd map of Back in Business), but that's really only a lengthy fight with waves of enemies and then a cinematic of EDF helicopters flying in and destroying the ship. Also, for a different type of "sector" boss or perhaps a very original and elaborate use of one of the regular Duke 3D bosses, you should check Merlijn's Shaky Grounds and the 2 last levels in particular, where the Cycloid emperor is initially shielded against your attacks in a forcefield, so you have to work around disabling it first before fighting him, all the while avoiding his missiles.

[Bruno]

Aleks, on 21 December 2022 - 01:25 PM, said:

"Final bosses" of It Lives and Dimension Shift mentioned here already are probably two of the finest examples of this, the one in It Lives relying more on the "design" and the one in Dimension Shift on pure and raw mechanics.

Thank you to all of you for these maps I need to check. I already download from MSDN "It Lives" and "Dimension Shift" in order to take a look, with mapster32, at effects mechanics for these original "boss". But we probably can't study these cases in Mapster32. Indeed, authors seem to build their area out of the maspter32 grid ! I don't know they managed to do that ! Or is there something I missed in mapster 32 since the beginning ? (A way to enlarge the grid I don't know ?). Or, do they just move these area out the grid in order to "protect" their new "boss" effect ?

[ck3D]

Bruno, on 22 December 2022 - 12:11 AM, said:

Thank you to all of you for these maps I need to check. I already download from MSDN "It Lives" and "Dimension Shift" in order to take a look, with mapster32, at effects mechanics for these original "boss". But we probably can't study these cases in Mapster32. Indeed, authors seem to build their area out of the maspter32 grid ! I don't know they managed to do that ! Or is there something I missed in mapster 32 since the beginning ? (A way to enlarge the grid I don't know ?). Or, do they just move these area out the grid in order to "protect" their new "boss" effect ?

Try editing your mapster32.cfg file and changing the value for editorgridextent to 524288.

[Bruno]

Ooooooh I started mapster32 more than 10 years ago and I never knew that! HUGE HUGE HUGE THANX 😱

[ck3D]

You're welcome (et joyeux Noël)!

For reference and inspiration purposes, here are two of my favorites out of the many bosses Zaxtor built, those in particular seem to heavily rely on extra .con code but at the same time in fact only so much, it's probably possible to replicate a lot of the effects in vanilla (at least to a degree) if one is willing to go the extra mile and get remarkably creative with more or less obscure combinations of base effects and (both engine- and Duke 3D-based) mechanics:





There also seems to be this video which appears to be a compilation showcase of more of them, but I can only post a link since the forums won't let me embed.

Re: the slimer wall in Poison Heart, I had completely forgotten about that one, but it's an interesting example because it's a very rudimentary one, probably doesn't even rely on SE 31's/32's, IIRC it's just a set of Doom-type doors with automatic shooters (and then SE 31's and timed explosions for the tentacles). I can't remember if that one was the first 'sector boss' I ever made, but its construction has to be jokes. With my gained experience since, barely even touching the existing set-up I probably would find ways to make it more aggressive and unpredictable since as of now it looks a bit static.

One thing to keep in mind when working with shooters I only found out about recently: ANY Activator in the sector will act as an on/off trigger, which means you can have several different ones and they don't have to be bound to one specific channel like the Infosuite wrongly informs. You'll probably realize how big of a difference that makes when you start experimenting with those; adds an extra dimension of possibilities, and is especially helpful to know is a thing if you want different phases.

[Bruno]

ck3D, on 22 December 2022 - 03:03 AM, said:

You're welcome (et joyeux Noël)!

Merci, très belles fêtes de fin d'année également à toi et tes proches

ck3D, on 22 December 2022 - 03:03 AM, said:

For reference and inspiration purposes, here are two of my favorites out of the many bosses Zaxtor built, those in particular seem to heavily rely on extra .con code but at the same time in fact only so much, it's probably possible to replicate a lot of the effects in vanilla (at least to a degree) if one is willing to go the extra mile and get remarkably creative with more or less obscure combinations of base effects and (both engine- and Duke 3D-based) mechanics

Damn, it seems that Zaxtor was one the most avant-garde level designer on Mapster 32. I have to try Trequonia when I will find time. It seems very well designed with lots of new effects. It's suprising me how much things can do mapster32. Just imagine if The Levelord and Allen Blum added some of these great effects in DN World Tour to open up Duke world into something players would not expect (like they did for exemple in High Times when Duke smokes. Even if I really enjoy this new episolde, these kinds of effects could go even beyond what Gearbox offers us with DN3D Alien Word Tour).

[ck3D]

Bruno, on 22 December 2022 - 04:30 AM, said:

Merci, très belles fêtes de fin d'année également à toi et tes proches



Damn, it seems that Zaxtor was one the most avant-garde level designer on Mapster 32. I have to try Trequonia when I will find time. It seems very well designed with lots of new effects. It's suprising me how much things can do mapster32. Just imagine if The Levelord and Allen Blum added some of these great effects in DN World Tour to open up Duke world into something players would not expect (like they did for exemple in High Times when Duke smokes. Even if I really enjoy this new episolde, these kinds of effects could go even beyond what Gearbox offers us with DN3D Alien Word Tour).

Zaxtor was an incredible mapper, I love reminding people that he and Billy Boy existed - both people who really looked at the engine for what it was and barely factored anything visual: every asset or bit of code was a possible mathematical function they would exploit, sometimes relying on map corruption and glitches Mapster32 later fixed (whilst breaking those effects unless one uses a really old build). The downside though is flow often was an afterthought, especially in Zaxtor's case where his take on gameplay essentially consisted in constant in-game DNSTUFF levels of item drops, as if to make sure the player wouldn't die before they got to see all the flashy constructions. As a result those maps are frustrating to navigate as video game levels (gotta be in the right mood for that three-hour long boss fight), but they are fantastic 'demo' maps because literally everything in them is pushed to the extreme.

World Tour was notoriously rushed and it seems to be the popular opinion that although Blum and Levelord (and others who were involved such as Lee Jackson) are legends who obviously put love and style into their craft there, they really weren't aided one bit on the code side (making the greatness of what they did manage to pull off all the more commendable); the Cycloid incinerator being the elephant in the room if one is ever looking for a representation of what I mean there; but it's usually regarded that on strictly technical terms, the community passed the original devs a long, long time ago (usually thanks to not being restricted by commercial no-no's). Heck the Alien World Order levels directly were built using Mapster32 (or a derivative) which is a community tool.

Et merci !

[Aleks]

ck3D, on 22 December 2022 - 03:03 AM, said:

You're welcome (et joyeux Noël)!

For reference and inspiration purposes, here are two of my favorites out of the many bosses Zaxtor built, those in particular seem to heavily rely on extra .con code but at the same time in fact only so much, it's probably possible to replicate a lot of the effects in vanilla (at least to a degree) if one is willing to go the extra mile and get remarkably creative with more or less obscure combinations of base effects and (both engine- and Duke 3D-based) mechanics:

This kinda reminds me of Wozma in Duke Nukem Manhattan Project, although he didn't take this long to kill, but the fight was similarly exhausting:

[ck3D]

Aleks, on 21 December 2022 - 01:25 PM, said:

"Final bosses" of It Lives and Dimension Shift mentioned here already are probably two of the finest examples of this, the one in It Lives relying more on the "design" and the one in Dimension Shift on pure and raw mechanics. Ck3d forgot his giant slimer sector boss thing in his Poison Heart, which was pretty cool and memorable as well. The closest I came to a "sector boss" must have been the alien spaceship in Freezing Fear (3rd map of Back in Business), but that's really only a lengthy fight with waves of enemies and then a cinematic of EDF helicopters flying in and destroying the ship. Also, for a different type of "sector" boss or perhaps a very original and elaborate use of one of the regular Duke 3D bosses, you should check Merlijn's Shaky Grounds and the 2 last levels in particular, where the Cycloid emperor is initially shielded against your attacks in a forcefield, so you have to work around disabling it first before fighting him, all the while avoiding his missiles.

I almost forgot, but I'd totally count the ship battle in Freezing Fear as a boss moment, yeah you don't actively shoot the ship itself but the mechanics are there, the arena is great and to this day I still have very fond memories of the first time I experienced it (RPG-less as well). Also Merlijn's use of the Cycloid in SG reminds me a lot of Puritan's in that one map of his, I want to say Undesirable Elements? Where you also get to catch a first glimpse of the boss as the central figure in one room, only for it to teleport away and then you have to wait until way later to get to fight it. Now that's more akin to an exotic intro to a classic Duke 3D boss encounter, though. Still loved it the first time I played that map.

[Aleks]

ck3D, on 25 December 2022 - 08:27 AM, said:

I almost forgot, but I'd totally count the ship battle in Freezing Fear as a boss moment, yeah you don't actively shoot the ship itself but the mechanics are there, the arena is great and to this day I still have very fond memories of the first time I experienced it (RPG-less as well). Also Merlijn's use of the Cycloid in SG reminds me a lot of Puritan's in that one map of his, I want to say Undesirable Elements? Where you also get to catch a first glimpse of the boss as the central figure in one room, only for it to teleport away and then you have to wait until way later to get to fight it. Now that's more akin to an exotic intro to a classic Duke 3D boss encounter, though. Still loved it the first time I played that map.

Yeah, it was Undesirable Elements, though I'm pretty sure the Cycloid didn't really shoot at the first glimpse. Also Puritan just made a "trick" with having 2 Cycloids IIRC, one disappearing and the other one, serving as the map's boss, just being there all the time. With SG5, I think it was also quite impressive how Merlijn literally teleported the boss from one room to another for the final battle.

[ck3D]

Aleks, on 25 December 2022 - 02:30 PM, said:

Yeah, it was Undesirable Elements, though I'm pretty sure the Cycloid didn't really shoot at the first glimpse. Also Puritan just made a "trick" with having 2 Cycloids IIRC, one disappearing and the other one, serving as the map's boss, just being there all the time. With SG5, I think it was also quite impressive how Merlijn literally teleported the boss from one room to another for the final battle.

Yeah can confirm he did use two Cycloids, I remember checking that out after the fact, the illusion did work though so I was using the term loosely. I think I even remember replaying the map just to try and get closer to the caged one and test whether or not it could kill itself with its own rockets from weird angles. Which reminds me of those (supposedly) unkillable Cycloids I had hanging upside down from ships in Anarchy City X (and one singular but killable one in Wide Awake), although again that is just fancy presentation and not exactly new mechanics.