[Benjamin Foley]

So the question is, how long do you spend on designing a level? how many hours? how many times do you start over? whats your process?

[ck3D]

2002 (my first tolerable level) - 2005 my average was in between two weeks and a month, but we were restricted by the sector and wall limit a lot more at the time (maps could only be four times as small as nowadays) and those levels sucked, I was trying but still learning my way around the editor and using it in nothing but the most basic ways so it should be no surprise that at the time anything over a week felt like trying. Then the limits blew up and from 2008 onwards I (and many other people around that time I remember) were suddenly spending a lot longer on their maps, trying to make really epic, coherent little meta universes, around that time period it wasn't unusual for me to spend two or three years on one of those more ambitious levels but I was also very on and off with mapping (which the community I've often read interpreted as hiatuses), but sometimes I'll catch a weekend or week off and cook up or finish a speed map. 2018 I started regaining a lot more control over my personal schedule and dove back into Mapster omega hard, figured out a lot of the modern features of the editor, learned all the more advanced effects (but TROR because I never needed it) but most importantly realized what the true important fundamentals to a Duke 3D level were a lot better as well as how to optimize every micro pattern in my own workflow, and now I can make a level in two or three days, 'full blown' with all 16384 walls used maybe around a week. I don't plan on paper, it's all mental but one big lesson I've learned is to never launch the editor and start a map with no concept, thematic or central gimmick (including regarding the layout) well established in mind, that way you always already know exactly what to design going in and it just comes out. The editor is there for the mapper to materialize a vision but it's only ever so rarely going to provide them with one, might as well try and decipher lines from a blank page - doesn't and won't work like that.

This thread is some funny timing because just last night I started a new speed map I intend to complete in no longer than a few days, and it's already well underway. It's a Red Light District neo-L.A. styled remake meets L.A. Rumble elements and here's what it looked like before I went to sleep after a couple hours of work (and also before I noticed the messed up sky):







And just now I spent exactly two extra hours on it and designed the equivalent of the Forbidden Videos & Books store complete with effects, lighting, connection to the outdoors, secret places, etc. As you can see, for now it's mostly the streets that still look bare:

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[Aleks]

Hah, that's a really good idea for a topic indeed. I've been pondering this question many times, but the answer is always quite vague. I've spent well over a decade on Back in Business, but of course that was mostly hiatus (or rather hiatuses), same with Submachine, which makes it really difficult for me to tell how much time I actually spent on them. I've figured out basic concepts for each level of The Conundrum in a single afternoon, then made first barebones versions of 4 maps in a week or 2, but then it all took about 2 months to really polish. The current map I'm working on was started in April 2021, in the meantime I took a hiatus for about 5 months to work on The Conundrum and then another 2 months when I was busy with work. However, this time I did decide to quite strictly keep the track of time and have been noting on how many hours/day I work on it each time I turn on the Mapster (approximately, roughing up to 0.5 hours). So far I'm about 12 400 walls in (so 3/4 of the map, minus gameplay and final polishing) and the counter's at 288 hours.

[William Gee]

It takes me between 1 week and a month to finish a level. Depending on how important it is, how inspired I am and so on.
These days I make gameplay that takes me personally 15 mins to pass a level, that normally means players take between 20 mins - 30 mins to pass.
Once I know the level takes me 15 mins to pass then I decide it is big enough and start to pull back / polish / finish, then release.

I don't tend to plan anything out, I normally just have a idea in my head of what I want and just let it happen.

[Forge]

The first couple of maps I made were basically learning labs. I was also holding down a job and going to school, so maybe an hour a day, six days a week & sometimes up to six hours on a Sunday. The first one - which wasn't supposed to be released (because the rule-of-thumb was to not release your 1st map because it's bad and full of mistakes) took about a month. The second took about two months.

Subsequent maps took longer the more stuff I learned about effects, lighting, visibility, etc, etc.
Average about two hours a day, seven days a week, for up to six months.

I probably wasted more time on, "what happens if I do this" experiments, than I did actually trying to make a good environment with good game play and combat.
Like William, I have a general idea, but I never plan anything out. Works for him, but for me, not so much. I get distracted, deviate from what I was doing, then I end up dragging things out too long and get discouraged.

[Sangman]

4-6 months at 20 minutes a day on average, something like that

[High Treason]

With an average of 4-8 hours per day, except weekends, around six months. This is based on Dimension Shift. The time taken to make levels got longer with each one and is another reason I'm pretty much retired, or at least won't be likely to make large scale levels in the future.

Time spent actually building and texturing that level was significantly less. I'd wager a hell of a lot of that time was spent in the F8 menu and repeatedly loading and testing things.

[ck3D]

I wasn't exactly planning on posting this but I just so happen to have all those screenshots at hand right now, and they show the evolution of my new level so may be useful to show my process (on this one at least, different styles of maps call for different approaches).

Screen 1 is after about two, three hours of work. Starting area is complete and the rough outline of the central hub is there (also with the different sector elevations, although one can't tell on such a screenshot).

Screen 2 is after about twice that, so five, six hours of work. I've started claiming the central hub for myself and figuring out labyrinthine ways to connect different spots, making for the first two indoor key quest segments although at this point they aren't optimally connected to the hub yet (one of my mottos for a room is it always should have at least three entrances/exits, whenever one doesn't I call it a miss).

Screen 3 is maybe 8-10 hours in, at this point I've figured out everything about the map's final angles and composition in regards to locations and structure, sometimes the design will call an idea, some other times an idea will call the design. Central hub got more and more complete along with the more space I invaded. Part on the top right turned out to be interesting terrain and so is now incorporated into the hunt to the third key, I guess sometimes I'll look at things I've built on a complete whim, realize what the weak and strong elements are and choose which ones deserve to have a say on the progression, to mark the emphasis on them (that's not too foreign from sketching and realizing that by highlighting certain lines and maybe techniques, you could easily turn the sketch into a proper drawing).

Screen 4 (15-20 hours in) looks the same but the structure of the map is more or less finalized at this point, only a few spots need more work and interconnections (sometimes those only pop up once the map is at a rather advanced stage and new opportunities in the design have opened). These days I'm also trying to add gameplay as I go instead of going for structure first then encounters and effects last, but I still do it in separate chunks depending on how crucial the action is - usually will start with the keys and main encounters (especially when a place is specifically designed as an arena, even for testing purposes) and then progressively spread and invade all the other branches in order of importance. From that point onwards, things are mostly set up and a matter of adjusting and refining.

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[Mark]

Since I like to have lots of filler in my maps I can't do like CK does and layout the general outline for large areas. I would run the risk of having way too many areas to fill later. My 2-3 hour screenshot might be one or two rooms. Its also hard to compare my mapping speed with others because I have to find or create textures and 3d models as I progress since I do little planning ahead of time. Its much more time consuming than having vanilla assets all there just waiting to be used. Plus I like to have what might be the the final texture placed right away instead of a map full of placeholders. And like High Treason I do a lot of "what if" experimentation early on instead of coming back later after more mapping elsewhere. Being a retired old goat I don't have the enthusiasm of youth on my side anymore. Basically everything I do is the opposite of what is needed for fast mapping. While its impossible to give a hard number for time spent on a level I'll just say all my projects are measured in years not days weeks or months. Lots of breaks in between sessions. I almost forgot to mention con coding is also done while the mapping progresses. So I have lots of interruptions in the mapping process which slow things down.

[Aleks]

Mark, on 02 July 2022 - 05:42 AM, said:

Its also hard to compare my mapping speed with others because I have to find or create textures and 3d models as I progress since I do little planning ahead of time. Its much more time consuming than having vanilla assets all there just waiting to be used.

I don't think it's that much different when it comes to the time consumed, just different when it comes to the method really. Sometimes I do spend hours myself on choosing just the right texture or finalising a composition when using just the stock assets or thinking of ways to use them in new ways to fulfil some not really intended purpose and think that perhaps creating new ones would be easier - but of course much of the fun is in the challenge itself, plus I like to stay consistent with the style and not run a risk of clashing with it due to having new art.

[Merlijn]

It depends. Each Shaky Grounds map took roughly 9 months to complete, but I wasn't working on them every day. Due to their complicated nature and their large scale they take more time to finish than usual. I made a couple of 'simpler' maps for alien armageddon and those took about 3 months.

My record must be the red 1 remake, which took a whopping 7 years 😁. But most of that time it was just gathering dust haha