[Undead Zaxxy]

 Altered Reality, on 16 May 2022 - 05:21 PM, said:

I disagree.

Duke3D = serious world, but the main character can afford to crack jokes in battle because he's so tough
DNF 2011 = the world is a clown house and the main character is aware of that

What's interesting to me is that as you say Duke 3D's world feels like a serious one even with all the jokes and references. Duke 3D is also the game that gave Duke a personality and as far as I know that whole bit with Jon St. John doing the voice acting was a very late addition during development. Because of that Duke's personality didn't really affect much of the development which is not true for the later games... and what do you see in the later games? A clown world: Duke travelling through time in Time to Kill, him going to the future to repopulate the Earth in Land of the Babes, the whole DNF 2011 story with its silly dumb stuff. Seems like developers just made silly games once they knew of Duke's character which is super strange considering how well Duke 3D balanced the silly with the serious.

[Jimmy]

The serious stuff was the forethought, the funny stuff was the afterthought. You can see that in DNF '01, and as the game is iterated over and over again all the rough edges are ground away and the afterthoughts become forethoughts that "have to be created again" for the fifth time.

[Ninety-Six]

 Undead Zaxxy, on 16 May 2022 - 08:02 PM, said:

A clown world: Duke travelling through time in Time to Kill

IMO this shouldn't count. Time travel has been a part of the franchise since game 1, because it was heavily inspired by comic books of the time. And as for TTK itself, well, it was actually one of the darker games post-DN3D. The soundtrack was very muted, the environments were actually fairly clean of the jokey stuff, and did you see the version of L.A. after the aliens killed Duke's ancestor?

Hell, besides that infamous ending, LotB was also quite dark.

[EvilEmperorZoRG {GR}]

 Ninety-Six, on 16 May 2022 - 09:43 PM, said:

IMO this shouldn't count. Time travel has been a part of the franchise since game 1, because it was heavily inspired by comic books of the time. And for TTK itself, well, it was actually one of the darker games post-DN3D. The soundtrack was very muted, the environments were actually fairly clean of the jokey stuff, and did you see the version of L.A. after the aliens killed Duke's ancestor?

Hell, besides that infamous ending, LotB was also quite dark.

I'd say Manhattan Project was dark as well. Just think of the Metro Madness levels. It had the perfect mix of fun and seriousness after Duke 3D. And epic moments like the helicopter boss fight where Duke seems serious about getting things done and not acting like a clown : P (which I think he does quite a few times in Forever).

[Aleks]

I dunno what's the shift about the "seriousness" of Duke 3D really, but it never felt that way ~20 years ago when I first joined this community and people were also interpreting Duke less seriously. I'd say Duke 3D is like a Quentin Tarantino movie - so there is some serious story there, but it's always been served in an over the top fashion. Even for what little plot Duke 1 and Duke 2 had, it's always been on the silly side - the cringey dialogues between Duke and Proton, bunnyrabbit exploding robots, then in Duke 2 the Oprah show, Duke's infamous book and the finale where he tinkers with a thought of taking over the Earth using the alien ship. Duke 3D never seemed much different in this aspect, maybe it's me playing it first when I was like 7-8 having something to do with it, but come on - the most iconic monsters are Los Angeles cops turned into mutated pigs with LARD on their shirts, enforcers randomly take shits around, you can replenish health by using the toilets... Not to mention the "fatalities" Duke is doing to the bosses.

And I'm not saying that to diminish the franchise, if anything it's much more of an art to balance these things out properly and come with something that I'd compare to a QT movie and not a cringy "funny" action movie. Moreover, I personally think this comparison is even more pronounced in the released DNF. I can see why people criticise it's ego/shooting mechanics, weapon limits, art style - which are all things I personally like, find fitting in the game or at least don't mind - or level design being mostly very linear, which is my main problem with the game. But then the amount of criticism over its tone, jokes or even the puzzles along with the lengths people go to intellectualise their judgmenets seems pretty far-fetched really. Also I can agree with most of what Megamustaine said about the 2001 build.

[EvilEmperorZoRG {GR}]

 Aleks, on 17 May 2022 - 12:47 AM, said:

I dunno what's the shift about the "seriousness" of Duke 3D really, but it never felt that way ~20 years ago when I first joined this community and people were also interpreting Duke less seriously. I'd say Duke 3D is like a Quentin Tarantino movie - so there is some serious story there, but it's always been served in an over the top fashion. Even for what little plot Duke 1 and Duke 2 had, it's always been on the silly side - the cringey dialogues between Duke and Proton, bunnyrabbit exploding robots, then in Duke 2 the Oprah show, Duke's infamous book and the finale where he tinkers with a thought of taking over the Earth using the alien ship. Duke 3D never seemed much different in this aspect, maybe it's me playing it first when I was like 7-8 having something to do with it, but come on - the most iconic monsters are Los Angeles cops turned into mutated pigs with LARD on their shirts, enforcers randomly take shits around, you can replenish health by using the toilets... Not to mention the "fatalities" Duke is doing to the bosses.

And I'm not saying that to diminish the franchise, if anything it's much more of an art to balance these things out properly and come with something that I'd compare to a QT movie and not a cringy "funny" action movie. Moreover, I personally think this comparison is even more pronounced in the released DNF. I can see why people criticise it's ego/shooting mechanics, weapon limits, art style - which are all things I personally like, find fitting in the game or at least don't mind - or level design being mostly very linear, which is my main problem with the game. But then the amount of criticism over its tone, jokes or even the puzzles along with the lengths people go to intellectualise their judgmenets seems pretty far-fetched really. Also I can agree with most of what Megamustaine said about the 2001 build.

With Forever it wasn't Duke that was the problem as much as it was the world around him. Everyone acted like total retards. And Duke never felt like he was really into saving the world. Dylan was supposed to be his old buddy and Duke couldn't give a damn shit when he died lol... Making jokes about dead EDF soldiers and stuff like that really made Duke look like an idiot who didn't give a shit. Making him pissed off when that happens would have been much better choise in my opinion. They kinda tried to fix that in Doctor Who Cloned Me but the idiotic humor was still there overall. And I don't mean the Duke Nukem humor just Forever in particular. Compare the one liners from Duke3D or Manhattan Project with Forever and see which one make you laugh better : P
That doesn't mean I didn't like DNF I just point out what I think kinda ruined the game atmosphere.

[Jimmy]

The in-world is played serious, it doesn't break the fourth wall and grin at the player. It's the difference between Tarantino and Marvel Cinematic Universe.

[Aleks]

Filming of "Lunar Apocalypse" starring Duke in Movie Set seems like a prime example of the environment breaking the 4th wall...

[Jimmy]

Not really, Duke Nukem is a huge star in-universe. Not a stretch for him to be in a movie.

[Altered Reality]

 Undead Zaxxy, on 16 May 2022 - 08:02 PM, said:

What's interesting to me is that as you say Duke 3D's world feels like a serious one even with all the jokes and references.

Jokes that are made by Duke, in a "I'm stronger, I can afford to joke around" way. There are no hotels called like sexual acts in Duke3D, no gas companies with an ass as a logo, no billboards that advertise food with sexual double entendres.
Things started going askew with Time To Kill (see: the Gatorbate billboard in the first level) and Zero Hour (burgers advertised as meat to put in your mouth). It's easy to assume that the changes snowballed on and on and on in the various iterations of DNF, until the whole thing was flanderized in the 2011 release.

[Ninety-Six]

 Altered Reality, on 17 May 2022 - 02:43 PM, said:

There are no hotels called like sexual acts in Duke3D

"Wham Bam Hotel"

 Altered Reality, on 17 May 2022 - 02:43 PM, said:

no billboards that advertise food with sexual double entendres.

"Highest Quality Meats
Nobody Beats Our Meat!"

[Jimmy]

Yeah, Duke 3D was just more clever, while later games tended to be more on the nose.

[Outtagum]

I wanna go back to the pink vest, soda cans and Oprah.

[Aleks]

 Jimmy, on 17 May 2022 - 02:23 PM, said:

Not really, Duke Nukem is a huge star in-universe. Not a stretch for him to be in a movie.

Dunno, especially if the movie was about an event that's just happened (i.e. Duke killing aliens/enforcers in particular on the moon). Then there's of course also Duke Nukem II available to play in Hollywood Holocaust, which takes place right after Duke has landed after escaping the Riglatins. But if all these aren't enough of non-Duke stuff that's breaking the 4th wall, then how about all the hidden "You are not supposed to be here" kind of messages from the level designers? Now that I think of it, Duke 3D probably has even more of these than DNF. And of course with Duke himself as a character, that's something that was present ever since Duke 3D.

Quote

no gas companies with an ass as a logo

Since Ninety-Six kinda rebutted all the other stuff and while there's no gas stations at all in Duke 3D, I'd just like to point out the KTIT and Funny Boner Comedy Club

[Jimmy]

 Aleks, on 18 May 2022 - 08:29 AM, said:

Dunno, especially if the movie was about an event that's just happened (i.e. Duke killing aliens/enforcers in particular on the moon). Then there's of course also Duke Nukem II available to play in Hollywood Holocaust, which takes place right after Duke has landed after escaping the Riglatins. But if all these aren't enough of non-Duke stuff that's breaking the 4th wall, then how about all the hidden "You are not supposed to be here" kind of messages from the level designers? Now that I think of it, Duke 3D probably has even more of these than DNF. And of course with Duke himself as a character, that's something that was present ever since Duke 3D.



Since Ninety-Six kinda rebutted all the other stuff and while there's no gas stations at all in Duke 3D, I'd just like to point out the KTIT and Funny Boner Comedy Club

You're overthinking it. These things are called Easter eggs. Casual players don't even notice them. Intermediate players might never see "You're not supposed to be here." Clever VS on the nose.

[Ninety-Six]

 Aleks, on 18 May 2022 - 08:29 AM, said:

Dunno, especially if the movie was about an event that's just happened (i.e. Duke killing aliens/enforcers in particular on the moon). Then there's of course also Duke Nukem II available to play in Hollywood Holocaust, which takes place right after Duke has landed after escaping the Riglatins.

To be honest, though they were meant as nods to previous events, in-universe I always believed there were easily explainable reasons for those being there. By the time DN3D takes place, Duke is a world-famous star after kicking Proton's ass. So being in a movie (that just so happens to share a name with an earlier episode, which of course wouldn't actually be named that since "episodes" don't exist in "real" events) or having a video game that's a sequel to an earlier one bearing his name is not all that far-fetched.

It's worth noting that the stages where the movie is being filmed don't particularly resemble episode 2 all that much. The ship in 17A bears no resemblance to the actual ship Duke used, and the moon landing set looks nothing like what happened when Duke got to the moon. Personally I always liked to think it was a film adaptation of the first game's second episode. Sure there's an Enforcer head gib there but those kinds of details aren't worth hyper-analyzing. Besides, it was originally meant for Dukematch where Duke and all his evil twin brothers tried to kill each other so it's probably not a hard reflection of canon.

 Aleks, on 18 May 2022 - 08:29 AM, said:

But if all these aren't enough of non-Duke stuff that's breaking the 4th wall, then how about all the hidden "You are not supposed to be here" kind of messages from the level designers? Now that I think of it, Duke 3D probably has even more of these than DNF. And of course with Duke himself as a character, that's something that was present ever since Duke 3D.

I don't think those should count. Almost all of them are inaccessible and require cheating to see. Even the "you are not supposed to be here" message would have been as much, but Levelord failed to account for the player being able to find a jetpack in the secret level. If it weren't for that the message would be as hidden away and unviewable normally as the rest.


That kind of thing was super common in the 90s. Ocarina of Time had Super Mario 64 posters in Hyrule Castle, Half-Life Opposing force had the message "Hack hack all day long, hack hack hack while I sing this song" hidden in the ending, Doom64 had an entire null texture dedicated to making fun of the level designers, etc.

All this to say that the existence of meta easter eggs does not also inherently make the character or the universe they're in meta.

 Aleks, on 18 May 2022 - 08:29 AM, said:

Since Ninety-Six kinda rebutted all the other stuff and while there's no gas stations at all in Duke 3D, I'd just like to point out the KTIT and Funny Boner Comedy Club

To be fair to the KTIT one, that one is pretty believable to exist. When Duke says the "breast tunes," it's obviously meant to be taken as a Freudian slip given how he hurriedly corrects himself.

[Aleks]

 Jimmy, on 18 May 2022 - 08:51 AM, said:

You're overthinking it. These things are called Easter eggs. Casual players don't even notice them. Intermediate players might never see "You're not supposed to be here." Clever VS on the nose.

I might be, but it's really to show all this stuff is vast overanalysis. I mean, it's all the same "breaking the 4th wall" as in DNF - it's either Duke playing a Duke game, or stuff Duke says (which in DN3D, DNMP, DNF is pretty straightforward, e.g. "What are you waiting for, Christmas?", "This really pisses me off", "It's a good day to die", "Guess he won't be in the sequel" etc.). It all comes to restricting the interpretation of Duke's character, which has always seemed quite open to me - and thus restricting the creative boundaries of either modders or game developers. Overplaying either the "seriousness" of DN3D or "goofiness" of DNF doesn't do either of these games or Duke's persona per se any good really.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, you just don't get it, dude.

[oasiz]

Maybe it's the result of no longer having to work around more strict censors with silly puns or double meanings.
Jokes and gags end up being more fast food. Hard to say, just a thought.

DN3D feels like the messages could be something like a director cameo as an easy to miss extra where DNF is more like mixed in with "scary movie" style, where jokes are in your face and the director cameo is now a forced self-insert gag with dialogue (and "cake in the face") so you won't miss it.

I feel similar vibes when comparing something like gta3 to gta5.
With 3, the juvenile crude humor was there but the world rarely acknowledged any of it.

Zany stuff is excellent and welcome, but being plastered too much with stuff just kills any immersion.

[Jimmy]

And you get it, my friend.

[OpenMaw]

 Aleks, on 17 May 2022 - 02:13 PM, said:

Filming of "Lunar Apocalypse" starring Duke in Movie Set seems like a prime example of the environment breaking the 4th wall...

That's more of an ironic thing. It's a sly commentary on how quickly Hollywood will move to score on a controversy or something popular.


There's a big difference between the subtle smirks and winks at the player that games like Duke3D pull versus the literal NAKED GUN tone of DNF 2011.

The characters in 2011 literally scream the parody in the player's face around every corner.

[Undead Zaxxy]

 Altered Reality, on 17 May 2022 - 02:43 PM, said:

Jokes that are made by Duke, in a "I'm stronger, I can afford to joke around" way. There are no hotels called like sexual acts in Duke3D, no gas companies with an ass as a logo, no billboards that advertise food with sexual double entendres.
Things started going askew with Time To Kill (see: the Gatorbate billboard in the first level) and Zero Hour (burgers advertised as meat to put in your mouth). It's easy to assume that the changes snowballed on and on and on in the various iterations of DNF, until the whole thing was flanderized in the 2011 release.

To me it's more of a visual thing I guess. The environments in Duke 3D look more realistic, the game is not oversaturated at all and a lot of the maps feel like real places. The other thing is the "density" of it all, in DNF there are sections where you just get visual gag after visual gag to the point that it makes the world feel like a joke. It's kind of like Duke himself: on the Duke 3D cover art the only "comic book thing" on him is his belt buckle with the nuke sign, on the DNF cover they were like "oh we're putting nuke signs on his gloves too and we'll have this red-black contrast going on his top like if it was the suit of a superhero and look, he has a golden gun".

[fonebook]

 Altered Reality, on 16 May 2022 - 05:21 PM, said:

Duke3D = serious world, but the main character can afford to crack jokes in battle because he's so tough
DNF 2011 = the world is a clown house and the main character is aware of that

Agreed, the tone of the game is completely off (Jon St. John's corny delivery didn't help either).

[OpenMaw]

Also, the Duke Burger "More Meat Than Your Mouth Can Handle" with a woman opening wide to try and get the burger in her mouth sign is actually witty, fitting of Duke, and is an extension of HIM in the world. I think stuff like that is fine when it's sprinkled here and there.

As was said above... DNF packs the shit in around every corner and never stops. It never tries to build a "real" world that you're fighting to save. Ergo you have no motive for the saving the world. It's like you're Frank from Naked Gun. Oh, they're not here for you Frank, Wierd Al Yankovic was on the plane...

[Altered Reality]

 Undead Zaxxy, on 19 May 2022 - 06:17 AM, said:

It's kind of like Duke himself: on the Duke 3D cover art the only "comic book thing" on him is his belt buckle with the nuke sign, on the DNF cover they were like "oh we're putting nuke signs on his gloves too and we'll have this red-black contrast going on his top like if it was the suit of a superhero and look, he has a golden gun".

That's one of the things I like. It's like Duke is saying: "Yeah, I'm deliberately going for the superhero look! I'm having custom clothing designed, and custom weapons designed, because I'm just that cool!"
Because, again, it's Duke doing it. It's not the world around him.

[Steve 64]

Rest in peace Geroge you will be miss