[Almost a Bicycle]

- You can pee on people 2 years before Postal 2 came out

- You can buy burritos

- Probably the best glass breaking physics until GTA 5

A lot of the levels seem pretty close to being finished, it's definitely worth downloading and messing around in

[randir14]

I'm surprised how detailed some of the models and texture work was. Way better than any other Unreal Engine game at the time. And it's cool how the weapon animations have some variety, for example Duke doesn't pump the shotgun the same way every time.

[Phredreeke]

Don’t forget to thank Randy for leaking it

[duke3d.exe]

This pissing thing is just dumb and doesn't work with Duke, it does with Postal because it's just over the top insanity but im not playing a Duke game to do that.

[randir14]

Phredreeke, on 11 May 2022 - 05:42 AM, said:

Don’t forget to thank Randy for leaking it

Why would he leak it? He wanted to sell all the old builds in a bundle.

[Aleks]

randir14, on 11 May 2022 - 08:35 AM, said:

Why would he leak it? He wanted to sell all the old builds in a bundle.

This is probably the best PR shot they could get if they were thinking about making/releasing a new Duke game. If I were him, I'd probably just "leak" one build - like they did now (although about a month since the PSP game got leaked) just to see how much media coverage and fanbase interest it will gain. If the reaction is positive, then it's a sign making a new Duke game could be profitable. Then just start developing then game and "leak" more old builds every now and then, either of DN3D or DNF - to keep the interest sparkled.

Doubt many people would really want to pay for something entirely unfinished, besides a bunch of die-hard fans who would end up sharing it all around anyway. Plus there's also the "forbidden fruit" kind of effect, the mystery and possibly suspicious source of the leak is something that makes it only more interesting.

[Ninety-Six]

Aleks, on 11 May 2022 - 08:49 AM, said:

Doubt many people would really want to pay for something entirely unfinished

Tell that to Randy, who previously stated he wouldn't release it without a price tag.

[necroslut]

Ninety-Six, on 11 May 2022 - 08:55 AM, said:

Tell that to Randy, who previously stated he wouldn't release it without a price tag.

IIRC what he said was that he couldn't, because of 2K.

[randir14]

Aleks, on 11 May 2022 - 08:49 AM, said:

This is probably the best PR shot they could get if they were thinking about making/releasing a new Duke game. If I were him, I'd probably just "leak" one build - like they did now (although about a month since the PSP game got leaked) just to see how much media coverage and fanbase interest it will gain. If the reaction is positive, then it's a sign making a new Duke game could be profitable. Then just start developing then game and "leak" more old builds every now and then, either of DN3D or DNF - to keep the interest sparkled.

Doubt many people would really want to pay for something entirely unfinished, besides a bunch of die-hard fans who would end up sharing it all around anyway. Plus there's also the "forbidden fruit" kind of effect, the mystery and possibly suspicious source of the leak is something that makes it only more interesting.

I was thinking Frederik Schreiber might've leaked it himself to hype their recently announced "most ambitious title yet, based on a cult classic IP". Especially after Tim Willits visited their studio and then tweeted he was happy that 3D Realms and Duke Nukem were now owned by Embracer.

[Phredreeke]

I don’t know if Randy is the leaker, just that it would be the funniest scenario.

[Jimmy]

randir14, on 11 May 2022 - 08:35 AM, said:

Why would he leak it? He wanted to sell all the old builds in a bundle.

Randy actually wanted to release it outright, but Take2/2k hates DNF and is against things like tools and betas etc. The idea of pairing the betas with a documentary for sale was his way of trying to assuage them into formal release. That said, I doubt Randy is the leaker. He's greasy, but not that greasy. Whoever leaked it did so at great risk, they'd pretty much get blacklisted.

[megamustaine]

Honestly the more I see, the more I see in common with 2011 DNF. Not that that’s a bad thing but people who act like this release would have been much different from the finished product are fooling themselves. Aside from regenerating health and weapon limits I’m just not seeing much but I do see the basic outline of what we finally got delivered in the end.

[necroslut]

megamustaine, on 11 May 2022 - 03:46 PM, said:

Honestly the more I see, the more I see in common with 2011 DNF. Not that that’s a bad thing but people who act like this release would have been much different from the finished product are fooling themselves. Aside from regenerating health and weapon limits I’m just not seeing much but I do see the basic outline of what we finally got delivered in the end.

The overall structure is quite similar, but a lot more ambitious in scope and vision. Minus the consolization, minus the casualization and streamlining, minus the ridiculous overly campy writing, minus the ...

[domasuburogu]

megamustaine, on 11 May 2022 - 03:46 PM, said:

Honestly the more I see, the more I see in common with 2011 DNF. Not that that’s a bad thing but people who act like this release would have been much different from the finished product are fooling themselves. Aside from regenerating health and weapon limits I’m just not seeing much but I do see the basic outline of what we finally got delivered in the end.

The og DNF had a different tone, more soul and overall you feel a different vibe playing this one. It simply feels more fun and more ambitious. The 2011 game had too many jokes that didn't land, the change of tone to a more "hahah funny" game, limited arsenal and it was cobbled together from scrapped ideas by a completely new team that operated in somebody's house. If this build got released in let's say 2002 it would have been an instant classic. It had so many cool ideas. RTCW from 2001 is considered a classic yet it's just your tipical shooter, so this build would have been remembered fondly today. Even if DNF would only get 7s in reviews it would still sell like hot cakes.

[Undead Zaxxy]

randir14, on 11 May 2022 - 09:26 AM, said:

I was thinking Frederik Schreiber might've leaked it himself to hype their recently announced "most ambitious title yet, based on a cult classic IP".

I'm genuinely interested in seeing their "Unreal Engine 5 AAA project". Not because I think it will be any good but rather because based on their history I think it's going to be one of the most amazing trainwrecks in videogame history. It's the biggest mystery to me how that Schreiber dude managed to sell the company to Embracer before going bankrupt (that would have been the second time if I remember correctly) and if I'm being honest I can't even comprehend what Embracer bought. Why invest in that? What's the benefit? Maybe they were just good friends with Tim Willits and he owed them a favor?

But to get back on topic I don't think it was him, he has no reason to and I think that if it was him then he couldn't stop himself from letting us now. According to the 3D Realms twitter account those people in Denmark have already made everything from Duke 3D to Max Payne, you think he'd keep silent about something he actually had a part in?

[MusicallyInspired]

The gunplay alone is way better in 2001. And that's saying a lot for an unfinished beta compared to a final "nexter-gen" official release.

[COHEED40]

I tried out the build after downloading it last night. I've seen people playing it on youtube videos, where the mighty foot, guns etc are working properly.. but for me it keeps showing super janky artefacts, like the guns turning into paper cutouts taking up most of the screen etc? not sure how to fix that.

[Aleks]

MusicallyInspired, on 11 May 2022 - 09:07 PM, said:

The gunplay alone is way better in 2001. And that's saying a lot for an unfinished beta compared to a final "nexter-gen" official release.

Hmmm, personally I wouldn't agree about this. Sure the guns feel cool, but it's more the enemies just dying faster it seems, so e.g. the assault rifle feels more powerful (and certainly more accurate) than chaingun in 2011 DNF (although chaingun there is super deadly in multiplayer). Didn't figure much about tripmines in this build yet, except being able to set like 3 different setting which is cool, but they seem to be proximity mines and also need to be placed directly on the walls like in DN3D - in 2011 DNF, tripmines were really neat with the ability to just throw them and stick at enemies or multiplayer opponents, plus they made a lot more sense not having a dedicated spot. Same with pipebombs. Chainsaw is unfortunately unfinished and a bit pointless, but I love the idea. Railgun doesn't feel that powerful, same with RPG, there seems to be something too "casual" about shooting both of these in the 2001 build. I dig the shrinker though with its cool "brain in a jar" design.

[necroslut]

MusicallyInspired, on 11 May 2022 - 09:07 PM, said:

The gunplay alone is way better in 2001. And that's saying a lot for an unfinished beta compared to a final "nexter-gen" official release.

I don't think DNF 2011 gunplay is nearly as bad as it's often accused of, but yeah; this plays remarkably solid for an unfinished beta, and feels better than quite a lot of released games from the time to be honest.

[megamustaine]

domasuburogu, on 11 May 2022 - 04:00 PM, said:

The og DNF had a different tone, more soul and overall you feel a different vibe playing this one. It simply feels more fun and more ambitious. The 2011 game had too many jokes that didn't land, the change of tone to a more "hahah funny" game, limited arsenal and it was cobbled together from scrapped ideas by a completely new team that operated in somebody's house. If this build got released in let's say 2002 it would have been an instant classic. It had so many cool ideas. RTCW from 2001 is considered a classic yet it's just your tipical shooter, so this build would have been remembered fondly today. Even if DNF would only get 7s in reviews it would still sell like hot cakes.

The 2001 release having basically a one to one intro with 2011 is all I need to know in regards to tone. Broussard took the wrong lessons from 3D and that was always bound to show up in future games. Hell look at the unified babe resistance that shows up in 2001. Real bad stuff. There’s not enough here to really judge everything else but 2011 doesn’t look far off the mark of a Duke Nukem Half-Life clone.

[TheZombieKiller]

megamustaine, on 12 May 2022 - 10:19 PM, said:

Hell look at the unified babe resistance that shows up in 2001. Real bad stuff.

Those are just re-used voice lines from Duke Nukem: Land of the Babes. They weren't actually part of DNF itself.

[Undead Zaxxy]

megamustaine, on 12 May 2022 - 10:19 PM, said:

The 2001 release having basically a one to one intro with 2011 is all I need to know in regards to tone. Broussard took the wrong lessons from 3D and that was always bound to show up in future games. Hell look at the unified babe resistance that shows up in 2001. Real bad stuff. There’s not enough here to really judge everything else but 2011 doesn’t look far off the mark of a Duke Nukem Half-Life clone.

DNF was always supposed to be a "Half-Life clone" and to me the 2001 leak absolutely proves that not only would have that worked out well but the game would have also improved on HL in lots of aspects. Compared to that DNF 2011 feels like a very shallow HL2 ripoff that is like HL2 but worse in every way possible and that is not helped by the fact that by that time the team thought that some elements of Halo would be a nice fit for a Duke game. The "lesson" DNF 2011 learned from Valve was that the game should be heavily scripted and that it should have the occasional puzzle.

Meanwhile here's how DNF 2001 relates to HL:

- They absolutely copied the soldier behavior from HL1 with their combat style, the radio chatter, their scripted entrances etc. and even in this unfinished state it works wonderfully. They are really fun to fight and the M16 being an effective weapon against them helps it feel great.
- They improved on the concept of headcrabs by turning them into Thing head spiders. The idea that you have to be on your toes and pay attention to dead bodies because their heads might activate is not fully executed in the leak but it's really neat.
- The game just has less scripted puzzles and that just works better with the gameplay. It's very similar to how most people wasn't bothered by HL1's linearity because even though there was only one route to take you still had to find that one or clear it from obstacles.
- Interacting with NPCs makes more sense: you help them, they help you but you also don't seem to be tied to them. For example there's a section where a guy with a flashlight is leading you through dark areas. If he dies (or if he gets stuck and you kill him) you can just pick up the flashlight and light the way yourself. Compared to that 2011 had one guy saying fuck all the time.


So it's kind of insane how much more promise this unfinished broken mess shows than the finished mess that hit stores. I constantly ask "why?"' while playing: Why did they cut out the concept of the infected humans? It works really well and I can't even imagine how many cool things they could have done with the concept instead of just bringing back the old enemies from Duke 3D. Why did they cut out the money system? It adds a bit of nice realism to the game and it's not complicated at all for a shooter.

And sure, the start is similar but you know what's missing? A dumb sequence with Duke pissing and picking up pieces of shit, a dumb cutscene that reveals him being a console peasant, a dumb section where you have no guns but have to kill enemies by awkwardly throwing physx objects at them. Oh and the rooftop scene is actually a full map with gameplay instead of it being a dumb, embarrasingly bad turret section. And the whole thing just picks up quicker, I'm not saying the whole talk show bit with the forced waiting aged well because that's just as bad as it was in the 2011 game but you get through all that quicker.

[Ninety-Six]

Undead Zaxxy, on 13 May 2022 - 07:12 AM, said:

DNF was always supposed to be a "Half-Life clone" and to me the 2001 leak absolutely proves that not only would have that worked out well but the game would have also improved on HL in lots of aspects.

That's what Duke always did best. Take inspiration from a major game, give it its own spin, inject his own unique charm, and improve upon the groundwork.

[megamustaine]

Undead Zaxxy, on 13 May 2022 - 07:12 AM, said:

DNF was always supposed to be a "Half-Life clone" and to me the 2001 leak absolutely proves that not only would have that worked out well but the game would have also improved on HL in lots of aspects. Compared to that DNF 2011 feels like a very shallow HL2 ripoff that is like HL2 but worse in every way possible and that is not helped by the fact that by that time the team thought that some elements of Halo would be a nice fit for a Duke game. The "lesson" DNF 2011 learned from Valve was that the game should be heavily scripted and that it should have the occasional puzzle.

Meanwhile here's how DNF 2001 relates to HL:

- They absolutely copied the soldier behavior from HL1 with their combat style, the radio chatter, their scripted entrances etc. and even in this unfinished state it works wonderfully. They are really fun to fight and the M16 being an effective weapon against them helps it feel great.
- They improved on the concept of headcrabs by turning them into Thing head spiders. The idea that you have to be on your toes and pay attention to dead bodies because their heads might activate is not fully executed in the leak but it's really neat.
- The game just has less scripted puzzles and that just works better with the gameplay. It's very similar to how most people wasn't bothered by HL1's linearity because even though there was only one route to take you still had to find that one or clear it from obstacles.
- Interacting with NPCs makes more sense: you help them, they help you but you also don't seem to be tied to them. For example there's a section where a guy with a flashlight is leading you through dark areas. If he dies (or if he gets stuck and you kill him) you can just pick up the flashlight and light the way yourself. Compared to that 2011 had one guy saying fuck all the time.


So it's kind of insane how much more promise this unfinished broken mess shows than the finished mess that hit stores. I constantly ask "why?"' while playing: Why did they cut out the concept of the infected humans? It works really well and I can't even imagine how many cool things they could have done with the concept instead of just bringing back the old enemies from Duke 3D. Why did they cut out the money system? It adds a bit of nice realism to the game and it's not complicated at all for a shooter.

And sure, the start is similar but you know what's missing? A dumb sequence with Duke pissing and picking up pieces of shit, a dumb cutscene that reveals him being a console peasant, a dumb section where you have no guns but have to kill enemies by awkwardly throwing physx objects at them. Oh and the rooftop scene is actually a full map with gameplay instead of it being a dumb, embarrasingly bad turret section. And the whole thing just picks up quicker, I'm not saying the whole talk show bit with the forced waiting aged well because that's just as bad as it was in the 2011 game but you get through all that quicker.

I’m sure they got rid of the soldiers because they are honestly a boring enemy to fight. The complexity present in the 2001 build as far as puzzles and linearity appears to be quite similar to that of 2011 so I’m not really sure what you are seeing there. Ultimately 2011 with its DLC is essentially what 2001 would have been except contoured to fit the 2011 shooter trends. I think 2011 is unfairly maligned and while ugly, unpolished and offensive in the wrong ways, I do believe it’s creativity and playfulness are unique to video games. Duke Nukem 3D established the franchise as a silly game that could see the character be in any situation the developers come up with and I think that the Forever we got honored that. The 2001 version seemed to also be headed in that direction and I believe it would have been good too but the difference between the leaked build and 2011 aren’t nearly as stark as people want to believe. Rose tinted glasses are being worn by people who loved the 2001 trailer and want to believe in an alternate timeline where DNF was a successful project.

[megamustaine]

Ninety-Six, on 13 May 2022 - 07:30 AM, said:

That's what Duke always did best. Take inspiration from a major game, give it its own spin, inject his own unique charm, and improve upon the groundwork.

Honestly, Half-Life felt like it was an evolution of Duke 3D. The puzzles, continuous levels and in-world story telling all feel like they were inspired by Duke.

[The Nate]

megamustaine, on 15 May 2022 - 12:36 PM, said:

Honestly, Half-Life felt like it was an evolution of Duke 3D. The puzzles, continuous levels and in-world story telling all feel like they were inspired by Duke.

Well, Chuck Jones did work on both...

[Altered Reality]

I need to say this release has kinda derailed my plans.

I was planning to shoot a short film where I'm at a retrocomputing convention, and while I'm filming an exhibitor talking about his machine, I noclip through reality and find myself in the Backrooms. There, I find a CD marked "DNF 2K1", I pick it up, explore a bit, get chased by a monster, and at the last second before the monster catches me, I noclip to the convention again, where the exhibitor asks me "Where have you been? I've been looking for you everywhere!" and I nonchalantly reply: "Oh, I just picked up this CD!" Then I would show a simulacrum of DNF 2001, obtained by porting Duke Nukem: Critical Mass levels to Unreal and using the Unreal4Ever mod.

But having it in reality is better than using special effects to make up a fantasy of it.

[Undead Zaxxy]

megamustaine, on 15 May 2022 - 12:33 PM, said:

I’m sure they got rid of the soldiers because they are honestly a boring enemy to fight.

You're not wrong yet shockingly they already have better AI than what the pig cops had in DNF 2011. Apart from having bad AI those enemies were pretty varied though (they used different weapons, had different armor levels, threw pipebombs at you etc.) so it's easy to see how a more developed version of the infected soldiers would have been better. What's more important to me though is that the shooting feels good in 2001 while in 2011 it was mostly awkward and clunky.

Quote

The complexity present in the 2001 build as far as puzzles and linearity appears to be quite similar to that of 2011 so I’m not really sure what you are seeing there.

I guess this will be a bit hard to describe but there is a near fundamental difference between HL1 puzzles (which is what you see in the 2001 build) and the HL2-esque puzzles that you see in 2011. DNF 2011's puzzles tend to disconnect from the environment and present themselves as "puzzle boxes", for example there's that terrible section in the casino where you have to pull the brakes to stop the elevator from falling. It adds nothing to the game and it's mechanically very segmented off, you press E and pull the brakes a few times and that's it. Or there's the part in the dam where you have to turn valves: it's this little puzzle room with its own mechanics, it's not hard but boring and you just get the sense that it shouldn't be there, like you should be able to just kick open the door and continue playing your first person shooter.

HL1 puzzles on the other hand integrate with the level design a lot better, there the puzzle is traversing the environment itself. That's why HL1's linear level design works great: you don't feel that it's linear since you constantly have to figure out how to progress. Sometimes that's easy but fun, sometimes it takes a bit of thinking and here and there you can even see something that resembles the puzzles boxes of later games but it's always engaging. For example in Office Complex there's that part where you have to turn off the electricity / avoid the electrified water, then if you want to open up the place further you have to figure out how to traverse the vents, how to avoid the automatic defense turret and crawl under it to turn it off etc. It's a ton of this stuff, puzzle after puzzle and when the soldiers get introduced even combat sections turn into the "run think shoot live" formula that HL1 essentially invented.

DNF 2001 does this a lot too, the casino really even feels like those first few levels in the Black Mesa Complex where it's about finding your way out through solving similar puzzles and it just works so much better than DNF 2011's dumb minigames. In DNF 2011 you pull the brakes to stop the elevator from falling, in 2001 you have to gain access to the maintenance room in order to notice the missing fuse, then you get to explore a whole story of the casino's hotel with the help of an NPC to find the fuse and then you get to activate the elevator and proceed to the casino floor.

And yeah, DNF 2011 has some good environmental puzzles too but mostly you get those weird minigame puzzle box sections and even when you don't a lot of the traversal boils down to "oh the door is locked, jump on those boxes and get inside through the rooftop". Or it's just very streamlined where there is a pile of explosives before you right next to a giant green jump pad and then you're just "oh sure, they want me to bounce a pipe bomb off that". HL1's puzzles are great because a lot of them don't feel "designed", they just naturally fit the environment, that's what DNF 2001 is doing too while the 2011 game is like "hey, there's a puzzle lol".

[Altered Reality]

megamustaine, on 15 May 2022 - 12:33 PM, said:

Duke Nukem 3D established the franchise as a silly game that could see the character be in any situation the developers come up with and I think that the Forever we got honored that.

I disagree.

Duke3D = serious world, but the main character can afford to crack jokes in battle because he's so tough
DNF 2011 = the world is a clown house and the main character is aware of that

[Ninety-Six]

Altered Reality, on 16 May 2022 - 05:21 PM, said:

I disagree.

Duke3D = serious world, but the main character can afford to crack jokes in battle because he's so tough
DNF 2011 = the world is a clown house and the main character is aware of that

To be perfectly fair, there was some humor outside of Duke himself in 3D, namely the easter egg corpses in each episode and the very occasional environment joke ("Wham Bam Hotel: Hourly Rates!"). Episode 4 dialed up the environmental humor and references (and had Duke talk more).

Though I will still say I think E4 leaned more on the darker side, as in addition to jokes in the environment, the increased detail also painted grimmer pictures when it wanted to, and when it didn't it was just a normal location not much different from E3 or E1. And near the end of the episode the humor is dropped entirely in favor of being more creepy until you finally reach the hive. And all this was helped thanks a lot in part to the soundtrack which generally remained as dark and moody as the rest of the OST.


To be clear here, I agree with you. But there are a few aspects outside just Duke himself in 3D that can lend themselves to that illusion.