[ck3D]

Just a quick, simple thread that's been teasing me to start it a few times now and it just did again so I thought I'd make it. This is for fun and for you to explain, not justify or defend yourself, I'm genuinely curious (and easily intrigued).

[Dr.Panico]

I've never had the energy nor the patience to master Build/Mapster. I tried a couple of time to learn how to map, but I would always end up running into some annoying obstacle that just kinda demotivated me.

The only thing I actually made with Mapster were a couple of crappy DM arenas for private use (with bots); that a more talented mapper could make in 2 minutes or less, and better. One of them was supposed to be more detailed, but aligning letter sprites on the walls was a pain; plus issues with scaling and stuff.

What's sad it's that I sometimes do have some ideas for maps in my head, picturing how someone could make it using only the original assets. That's basically me in a nutshell: great in having ideas, but putting them on practice is another story.

[DNSKILL5]

I'm just a really bad procrastinator. I've wanted to make maps for near 2 decades but only until recently have had the motivation. Now, I just need to finish something and release it..

[Radar]

I made some DM maps back in the day that I thought were visually decent. Some screenshots if you're curious. It's a trip down memory lane even opening these things back up. I never had the vision to make anything full-scale though. For some reason every time I tried the architecture would just become a mess.

Spoiler

[ck3D]

@Radar re: architecture looking like a mess, I think I can see the stage you were at when you made those maps from the screenshots. It looks like you have (or had at the time) the fundamentals of sector design down (and a solid take on geometry as well), but struggled with 'disguise' with texturing (which I'd argue may qualify as its own 'mini-game' within Build, as in a task that exercises the mapper's neurons in a particularly niche way) and I was going to say wall shading, but from the third screen it's clear you had realized that and were trying to figure out that direction too. Texturing and wall shading is big when it comes to clean looks regardless of the type of structure you designed, and in a way one is almost obligated to find that aspect fun from the get-go in order to get good at it because it's really something you pick up with practice (usually pretty quickly, though, science is pretty basic to grasp and learning curve mellow and short). But in a sense, your constraint also resulted in what I find to be a really interesting abstract style. I think all those maps would need is clean texture alignment and proper wall shading in order to already look a whole lot better and gain depth.

@Dr. Panico I'm curious now, which obstacles, can you remember by chance?

@DNSKILL420 Looking forward to what you've been growing!

[William Gee]

I learned to map making DM levels, small crappy stuff that was fun and looked terrible that I could enjoy with friends.
It was the first CBP project I entered that inspired me to start WGSpace1, The CBP project back then were really fun and motivating.

[Ninety-Six]

William Gee, on 23 April 2022 - 09:45 PM, said:

It was the first CBP project I entered that inspired me to start WGSpace1

Which one was that, may I ask?


As for me, it mostly comes down to three reasons.

1. Time/commitment to other things taking priority
2. Mapster's UI is quite unfriendly to new people. Seems to rely mostly on hotkeys and hotkey combinations, with memorization thereof crucial to efficient mapping. Hardly impossible to work with by any means, but it does mean learning the program is an extra long step, so see point 1. Previously this was also compounded by extremely tiny text that made it hard on the eyes.
3. Concerns about my own precision-happy brain not being adjusted well to level design (though the comment that a lot of level design is improv does help with that).

These are roughly in descending order of which points are contributing most, with the first point being the main reason.

[Quacken]

For me it's mainly down to three factors, two of which are probably more significant than the other:

1: I have huge self-confidence issues. Whatever creative project I try to undertake, unless I feel I'm well versed in it, eventually devolves into a spiral of self doubt, anger at myself, mapping sadness and then deleting what I was working on. I know this is pretty counter-intuitive, and it's something I want to try and do my best to mitigate eventually.

2: Mapster feels pretty confusing to me. As someone who's mainly used Doom Builder and friends it's given me quite a bit of whiplash trying to work with something that comparatively isn't as customisable, as easy to tell what button does what, what hotkeys bring up particular menus or what I've inevitably screwed up on and how to put it back to the way it was. Not that this is a jab at the program, of course.

3: I have a bunch of other commitments at the moment and I'd rather focus on those first.

[Hank]

The main focus was to make something with new/borrowed tiles and looks. That was the easy part. But this alone does not make for interesting levels. Mine simply do not capture an intense came play, and there is no school teaching you this art, thus I accepted the simple truth, I ain’t no mapper.

[ck3D]

Yeah, maybe I should have specified 'other than other commitments/lack of spare time', not because those are invalid reasons, quite to the contrary, it's the most common possible reason and a real thing in everyone's case. Every hiatus I've gone on from the community's perspective was just me handling different things in life this whole time and whenever I'm mapping coincides with time of relative isolation, I suspect that's normal (and thus always understandable).

Self-confidence is big in everything one does, in literally every action they undertake. Mapster may be great to build that up though because there are no stakes and no judges but yourself and your own personal satisfaction, so in a sense it puts you directly up against the enemy within yourself, also testing your patience, cognitive skills, it's quite an exercise. One is never well versed in any practice overnight though and starting somewhere isn't just acceptable, it's key to everything. You can't learn if you never dare risking mistakes. (This is a general observation and not necessarily designed for you, Quacken)

@Ninety-Six the improv behind 2D room layout is actually low-key one of the most liberating and satisfying parts of Build/Mapster/level editing, in my opinion. It's complete freedom, most particularly as far as Build is concerned, you just sketch lines in whichever direction you feel in the moment except what you're drawing is actually virtual space, then from that point on I reckon texturing and aesthetics in general are basically the equivalent to inking which is a spontaneous reinterpretation of a base canvas of your own design in itself. The more of mapping feels like expression and every move you make an editor is a natural extension of yourself, the less like a tedious task each operation feels. Becoming fluent with the hotkeys is a challenge indeed, but if you ever bothered learning to overcome that, I suspect those issues of fidelity between your vision and your results would dissipate.

[MrFlibble]

I have thought about giving map making a try, but, apart from the lack of time, I find myself without any interesting ideas that would be worth trying to implement in a map. A long time ago, when I made some scenarios (and even campaigns) for StarCraft and then Command & Conquer, I'd generally have an idea of what exactly I wanted to create, story wise and mission wise (map layouts, the placement of forces etc.). But here, somehow my imagination does not kick in. I've read some suggestions for beginners like try to lay out a familiar environment (such as one's own room) first to learn the basics, but while I do think that this might be a good start, it's not exciting at all, even if it might contribute to being able to create something more interesting further on. So I generally lack the motivation to explore this kind of creativity because I can't think of any worthwhile application for the mapping skills that I could possibly develop.

[Ax 34noff]

For Duke: Mapster is rough, not as good as e.g. Ultimate Doom Builder.
For Doom: have ideas but not have _enough_ ideas (or just laziness).
For Quake: Trenchbroom doesn't have lighting preview.

[William Gee]

Ninety-Six, on 24 April 2022 - 02:58 AM, said:

Which one was that, may I ask?

CBP 2 http://wg.duke4.net/maps/cbp2.zip

[duke3d.exe]

I was really into build when I was like 11-14 back then, then less and less time for it so I ended up not making any maps in what's not more than a decade.
I remember I had ideas and visions of what I wanted to achieve. The Roch series would have been what I was aiming for, just awesome city maps.
Now im just hoping other people keep maping so when I come back every couple of months or so there's something new to play.

[Phredreeke]

If you don’t upscale, why don’t you upscale?

[Mark]

Phredreeke...Too many models to choose from. I get confused ( joking )

If you don't use custom high resolution assets with texture maps, 3d models and Polymer renderer, why don't you use custom high resolution assets with texture maps, 3d models and Polymer renderer. ( joking again, not meaning to derail topic )

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[Morpheus Kitami]

Something that's true specifically for anything in the Build Engine is that I find the editor somewhat confusing. The problem is that its not something like say, learning a foreign language, or drawing a picture, where you can compartmentalize one specific thing you want to work on. It just feels harder to me to learn the workings of the engine, even if I could say, just go with some particular command, then another one, then one menu, and so forth.

Though that paragraph also ties into why I don't do anything in general. Right now whenever I have the time to create something, I've been doing stuff that involves working on my 2D art skills. I feel like, that while the skills probably don't transfer all that well, I should probably get a decent grasp on 2D before moving into 3D.

[Forge]

ck3D, on 23 April 2022 - 05:06 PM, said:

Just a quick, simple thread that's been teasing me to start it a few times now and it just did again so I thought I'd make it. This is for fun and for you to explain, not justify or defend yourself, I'm genuinely curious (and easily intrigued).

Because I suffer from depression. At some point during the mapping process frustration and apathy set in, then I find working on it becomes tedious and unsatisfying.

[Doom64hunter]

Because when I map, it becomes an ADHD-ridden mess. I either hyperfocus on a single area and spend way too much time on it, or start too many areas without completing them properly, ending up in a huge shallow construct.

[NNC]

I simply don't have the patience and time to do it. Using Mapster is biatch, it's good for scanning and analyzing the existing levels, but terrible to start from scratch. You literally have to align, shade every single texture, and every additional geometry is making your life 1000 times difficult. I'm just fascinated how some people can pump these things so effortlessly (at least seemingly). Also I don't exactly have the talent/imagination needed for it. If I had started creating one, it would have degenerated into something we have seen 100 times already.

On the other hand I generally enjoy buffing up maps, polishing them and making them much more playable, and adding stuff to them that might escaped the creator's mind. But that's mostly for myself, creators wouldn't enjoy if someone else is bastardizing their work. For example, back then I buffed up Alejandro's ADG episode, because I thought it has more potential.

[oasiz]

I'm drawing the Ion Fury Aftershock card.

But beyond that... I wonder if there would be interest for a map-along livestream thing in the future. I feel like one big gap with starting mapping and getting up to speed is just the sheer vertical cliff.
Being able to have instant answers instead of banging your heard for hours on some trivial unintuitive issue is a constant I find for new mappers struggling with.
I guess it would be a bit more course-like format. Would be kinda interested to do one when I have less commitments.

[ck3D]

oasiz, on 28 April 2022 - 09:59 AM, said:

I'm drawing the Ion Fury Aftershock card.

But beyond that... I wonder if there would be interest for a map-along livestream thing in the future. I feel like one big gap with starting mapping and getting up to speed is just the sheer vertical cliff.
Being able to have instant answers instead of banging your heard for hours on some trivial unintuitive issue is a constant I find for new mappers struggling with.
I guess it would be a bit more course-like format. Would be kinda interested to do one when I have less commitments.

Pretty convinced that just sounds like the future, just in general, (I can be a bit of a broken record about this but) mapping is typically a solo activity and therefore everyone has always developed their own unique ways of composing with the editor (hence some style quirks but also a lot of unobservable routine operations I'm sure); more video reference would only help everyone's knowledge propagate and contribute to progress on the scene.

Another idea I've had before to help people start out is a tutorial but unlike every other tutorial that's basically a list of features, hotkeys, options and tech, one that would focus on teaching muscle memory to the player, that's basically the whole purpose of 'The Basics' in the Infosuite but I feel like the whole concept could be pushed further by narrowing down the most common operations (as apparent as drawing and editing walls but also as obscure and mundane as turning grid lock on and off) and providing the reader with a list of basic in-editor exercises articulated around those commands with just the right repetition, to help them figure out the gist of the fundamental controls in a very short time and only-so-incremental steps. But realistically, I'm most likely never finding the time to come up with something like that myself - just a 'would be cool if...'.

[Arzca]

For me, there are certain things that are holding me back. They include some of the things which others have already mentioned, such as one trying to remember certain hotkeys, etc. Sometimes, I feel like I'm fighting "a system" more than I'm making a level. That is usually very consuming, particularly when you've got some good ideas and you want to try to execute them, but then these kind of questions start popping up the minute you've opened the editor ...."Um...what was that SE number again...How do you do a one sided masked wall...?" And the list goes on. It is incredibly demoralizing to get tangled like that when you're in the mood to make a level. Knowing about these things has helped me to change my approach to Duke 3d mapping and it has allowed me to adjust my personal approach more suitable for Duke 3d mapping and different things and processes that take place while I'm making a Duke 3d level vs other games.

Still, I want to end this on a positive note and say that acknowledging these things has helped me out a little bit. Making levels still takes its "mental toll", but the motivations-lows aren't as terrible as they were before.

[Aleks]

Arzca, on 25 May 2022 - 10:45 AM, said:

but then these kind of questions start popping up the minute you've opened the editor ...."Um...what was that SE number again...How do you do a one sided masked wall...?" And the list goes on. It is incredibly demoralizing to get tangled like that when you're in the mood to make a level.

To be honest, that's something that made me a bit reluctant to get back to mapping 2 years ago after a long hiatus, and perhaps also every other time I did take longer mapping breaks in the meantime. Turns out I might be a bit mental, but these things have become hard-wired into my muscle memory forever, of course, I still do learn new shortcuts and tricks, but as soon as I pop up the editor, these things always came back to me instantly.

[ck3D]

^ Yeah I'm the same, I do remember launching the editor for the first time in a while and then feeling rusty a few times but that never ever lasts, everything just comes back in moments and if anything, by just going 'back' to the Infosuite or Wiki more to remember some of the effects or hotkeys I probably learn new stuff every time.

Arzca, on 25 May 2022 - 10:45 AM, said:

It is incredibly demoralizing to get tangled like that when you're in the mood to make a level.

That is normal as whilst mapping you want as little hindrance as possible to get in the way of the spontaneity of the creation and so every technical difficulty that forces you to pause and think is undesired (that part of the process needs to happen but usually is best planned beforehand and away from the actual editor). I find that it actually really works when you're in that mood to not succumb to it right away and instead sit on and nurture that inspiration until a very accurate principle or base idea for your level starts to form and then once it has, you'll know it and it'll be nothing but execution time. If your idea involves a technical effect you're not so sure about anymore and need to spend time looking up and experimenting with, spend that practice time and energy on a test level instead and that should even provide you with a new layer of inspiration regarding the final use and settings.

[Arzca]

ck3D, on 26 May 2022 - 03:01 AM, said:

That is normal as whilst mapping you want as little hindrance as possible to get in the way of the spontaneity of the creation and so every technical difficulty that forces you to pause and think is undesired (that part of the process needs to happen but usually is best planned beforehand and away from the actual editor).

This is exactly I was talking about. Be aware of the structure of the whole design process, and take the required actions to make it as smooth as possible for yourself to avoid massive motivation drops. It is good to have a "safety net" of somekind that prevents you from giving up entirely on a map (I use InfoSuite and some docs I've downloaded over the years before). Another good motivation booster I've learned is the "map surfing". I might just open a random user map and go check it in 2D and make a brief "analysis" of certain areas of the map and 5 minutes later I'm like: "so that's how it was made, cool".

I rarely plan my levels on paper, draw a sketch or any illustrations etc (more like very extensive brainstorming lol), but I think planning a few steps ahead and taking it slow if needed is extremely important when you're kind of in the "gray area", where your mapping motivation remains extremely high, but some ideas that come up aren't necessarily practical or they fight against the spirit or the theme of the level you've built up to that point. Shaking off those bad ideas can sometimes be challenging, but these days, I've learned to give myself the needed time to shake off the bad and wild ideas and look for the good ones instead - should it take a little longer. The good ideas tend to often emerge out of thin air when you least expect for them.

[Altered Reality]

I have more fun mapping for games with editors that let you create 3D environments, like Quake (Darkplaces port), Prey, Unreal, and DNF 2001.

[LakiSoft]

Recently i do not map because of some keyboard issues i have. Last time i actually mapped was five years ago, but since then i had many different hardware issues and now as i already mentioned, keyboard is the current problem. One day when i fix keyboard, it will be definitely like learning Mapster all over again, since 5 years is pretty enough time to forgot some essential hotkeys.

However when we put hardware related problems aside, my main problem is to get inspiration and to think of a plan and the way how to build rooms that will look nice. Even when some fancy ideas come up in my mind, i still have a problem how actually to interpret them in Mapster. From my previous mapping experience i can only say that whatever i make, it don't look good as i expected in my head to look like. That's the basic problem i have. Although i consider myself experienced at Mapster, i am still not experienced enough.

[ck3D]

Arzca, on 26 May 2022 - 08:49 AM, said:

This is exactly I was talking about. Be aware of the structure of the whole design process, and take the required actions to make it as smooth as possible for yourself to avoid massive motivation drops.

This might speak to you a lot then:



I also don't draw any plans on paper or anything (I've only done that once or twice and think the last time must have been back in 2004), it's all mental. Maybe that actually helps too - the more I internalize the vision before laying it down the more I feed it and eventually it becomes so accurate I already know what needs to come out and how by the time I fire up Mapster.

Sounds a bit like the conflict in perspective vs. actual materialization Gingis is bringing up for himself but to a less 'extreme' degree.

[Aleks]

I, on the other hand, would encourage anyone to draw and sketch on paper as much as possible before turning on the editor. It could probably also be helpful for Gingis if he has problems to actually visualise his ideas - paper takes everything (Mapster doesn't), so it's a good start really. In my case, I've had everything drawn and planned for Submachine which was kinda bound to be made that way in order to faciliate the non-linear design without hitting a wall along the way, so that's one way of how drawings can be useful - for general plan/layout coherence. Now the other is for details - sometimes it's easier to draw e.g. a more complex structure or some machinery etc. before going to lengths with slopes and stuff just to realise it doesn't look right in the end. Neither of these has to be some sophisticated drawings, I usually hastily made sketches on whatever piece of paper I can find around. The third type of drawings I make is for effects that require more planning/innovation, I usually just draw out everything with tags, effectors etc. before testing this in a test map. If you've checked the "secret bonus content" for Submachine, which isn't secret anymore, there's examples of all that stuff

Also, for problems with inspiration, going on a walk or looking at pictures online of the thing you're trying to build is always the best idea.