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[RELEASE] Salvage Title  "Speed map for 1.3d+"

User is offline   ck3D 

#1

Yo, here's a speed map under every sense of the term - it only took three days to make and, in addition to casual play, I also tried to consider possible speedrunning in the layout and general possibilities. Gotta get familiar first though or chances are it'll gently kick your ass.

Salvage Title is an average-sized level that falls quite far below the modern Mapster32 limits, so it should be compatible with DOS Duke (unless there's something about map versions that eludes me, which is likely) and also I felt like sticking to 1.3D-only assets which I guess means it should be playable without Plutonium Pak/Atomic Edition.

Attached Image: broken1.png Attached Image: broken10.png

Not much to recount really, best approach for this one would be to just go in. It's a rather action-packed map that should treat you rather fairly despite its occasional surprises, yet keep you on your toes (certain weapons do make some specific sections easier or harder, depending on when you go to obtain them), difficulty settings are implemented (and also Coop, Dukematch, etc.), and there are three secret places. Have fun!

Attached Image: broken3.png Attached Image: broken6.png

Re: speed challenge. I've given the map half a dozen full spins so far, switching in between different approaches; my first two real playthroughs (where I was still getting familiar with the level myself, on Let's Rock) took 22 minutes, then I tried hurrying up a bit all the while not neglecting safety item grabs and kills and got 15 minutes. Now, just before typing this post, I went for one last run that was full yolo (which doesn't mean I played well at all) and got 9 - no skips although I did try leaving a few possible ones open for players, although I did bail on a secret. Wonder how low the bar can go.

Attached Image: broken18.png Attached Image: broken17.png

Attached File  SALVAGE.zip (66.03K)
Number of downloads: 253

This post has been edited by ck3D: 30 December 2021 - 11:15 AM

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User is offline   Mike Norvak 

  • Music Producer

#2

That was fast!
1

User is offline   NNC 

#3

Haven't played it yet, but the screens look different to the typical ck3D style and is more closer to the classic 3DRealms style. I will find time to play it, lad.

This post has been edited by The Watchtower: 31 December 2021 - 12:31 AM

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User is offline   ck3D 

#4

View PostThe Watchtower, on 31 December 2021 - 12:31 AM, said:

Haven't played it yet, but the screens look different to the typical ck3D style and is more closer to the classic 3DRealms style. I will find time to play it, lad.


That's great, yeah there still are a few ck idiosyncracies (that I won't spoil) but I definitely tried going for something more simple here for the most part. Like I mentioned in the W.I.P. thread, this took inspiration from Levelord's cut maps, some of the Total Meltdown levels and is akin to something like AMC Pleaser with better execution. Felt like working on Meatball Sub Makin' again just with slightly more a clue of what I was doing, it's a simple map and more theme-centric too so I hope you'll find it worth your time. Cheers!

@Mike indeed it was... But now, how fast will you be?
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User is offline   Merlijn 

#5

Always nice to see a new ck3D release, congrats! :)

I played the map on CGS and it took me roughly 25 minutes. I'm not a speedrunner at all: I like to take things slow, soak up the environments, find all the secrets etc. I did get all kills and secrets so I'm happy. ;)
Anyway, it's a cool map! The style is indeed different from your usual stuff, but I'm not sure if I would call it classic 3DR. It reminded me of the better 90's user maps more than anything else, which was also mentioned in the WIP topic. And overall the map feels.. punk rock. Perhaps the soundtrack helps to magnify that but that's the best way I can describe it haha.

Anyway, I think the style is pulled off very well. I especially liked the entire junkyard sequence and the final area. I also like how areas are interconnected and how new connections can be created by blowing up bits of the level. Felt very old-school in all the right ways. Combat-wise I liked the beginning a lot, where you're encouraged to use tripmines. And the yellow keycard fight was well staged too.

I'll put a couple of specific things in spoiler tags:

Spoiler



There's one possible way to get softlocked:
Spoiler



Overall, a worthy entry in your ever expanding catalogue!

This post has been edited by Merlijn: 31 December 2021 - 04:38 AM

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User is offline   ck3D 

#6

Thanks a lot for the detailed feedback, I'm happy you liked the map and especially for all those little things that I also like, always cool when other people can vibe with them too. First element you're mentioning under the first spoiler tag wasn't planned till the very last second but when I realized that worked perfectly I was stoked on it too, and now I have new ideas when it comes to 'pushing' sprite elements out of action but not out of sight with this kind of floor door/parallaxed ceiling trick.

Nice catch regarding the softlock too, I'll post a revised version of the map with a way out of there sometime this evening and even got to warn Mikko about it, so that will be fixed soon. In the meantime I'd say be patient and/or DNCLIP, haha. I barely realized that 'hole' even existed, and I salute your general effort of trying to break the map boundaries as that's the kind of thing I wanted to encourage there (except I need not to reward it with softlocks).

Gotta play your episode in full sometime this weekend hopefully, I'll be bumping the Shaky Grounds thread when I have. Cheers!

This post has been edited by ck3D: 31 December 2021 - 05:16 AM

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User is offline   Aleks 

#7

Played the map last night, was supposed to make a fast test right before the release, but before I got to it, the map was already released :D Also it took me way longer than Merlijn, 38 minutes in total, I also did my share bit of exploring though and did get stuck with progression a couple of times.
Spoiler


I've already told MRCK my more detailed comments. I wouldn't say this has the classic style vibe to it, but definitely a 1996 user map (made by someone who knows what he's doing of course) and even a strong LameDuke feel (use of 1.3d textures helped, especially the car walls or using the orange/tan sewer/dumpster textures that are quite unusual). But then it's a very MRCKish map in the end, probably if someone handed me this map without telling me the author, I'd guess it (seeing a lot of Blast Radius may help here though). Loved the interconnections, this layout-centered level design vibe is very strong. Also agree with Merlijn about the yellow key fight and tripmine start being some of the funnier combat parts. The junkyard theme was sold well. One area I wasn't particularly fond of was the "cramped" part with slime river which made navigating there quite constrained.
Also, Merlijn
Spoiler

Overall, it's another ck3D map, so don't think there's more recommendation needed - grab it and play it!
1

User is offline   ck3D 

#8

Here's a quick update on the map with a way out of that potential softlock.

Also now reviewed on MSDN: https://msdn.duke4.net/hotsalvage.php

Happy New Year's!

Attached File(s)


0

User is offline   Mike Norvak 

  • Music Producer

#9

Sorry I'm not that quick playing new releases, in fact it's been a while since I even touched any videogame. Nice review by Mikko BTW.
1

User is offline   ck3D 

#10

View PostMike Norvak, on 31 December 2021 - 04:02 PM, said:

Sorry I'm not that quick playing new releases, in fact it's been a while since I even touched any videogame. Nice review by Mikko BTW.


Man no sweat, I'm in the exact same boat as you and certainly don't expect a bunch of comments flowing in about my little Duke map. Really just enjoy it when you can. My own list of maps I sincerely do intend to play and genuinely feel guilty for neglecting in the meantime is also stupid long, but at the end of the day it's a game - the mood and focus gotta be just right. I appreciate your enthusiasm!

Thank you Aleks for all the feedback. It's a pleasant surprise for me that people are into the originality of the drone and tripbomb fights, I kinda expected those to be a bit more divisive. Hot take but the drones, whilst comically universally despised I think are one of the greatest enemies in Duke - in the wrong environment they potentially can be an unfair dick move - but when the set-up works then even one swarm can make for some really exciting, fast-paced action, plus the features of that enemy are kinda cool - flying type, actually dodges your shit, can tank most of the rest of it. They make anxiety-inducing sounds but they're really cool.

Re: place with the slime river, only reason why I didn't make that spot less frustrating is during casual play it may just get on one's nerves, but during a speedrun makes for an instant 10- to 15-second time loss making the mistake of falling in it (let alone more if the player struggles to get back, or falls down again), right before the last third of the map too which I thought was cool to have as something to potentially jeopardize runs. There's quite a few things around the level in general that really make the most (if any) sense from that perspective of trying to punctuate gameplay with speed hazards: the crusher threat (followed by 3+ different ways to go back to the lower level) is another one, and I know that would take shinobi skills but

Spoiler


I'm also honored that so many people can tell my direct influences from this map and yet insist that it doesn't feel like a copy, that's actually a great compliment and all those names and levels should keep receiving attention.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 31 December 2021 - 05:51 PM

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User is offline   Danukem 

  • Duke Plus Developer

#11

I haven't played this yet but just wanted to say that 3 days of time on a map by a veteran mapper is still a pretty big investment of skills and energy and enough time to make an excellent map. I wish more veteran mappers did "quick" maps like this more often! It would greatly increase the mapping output of the community and the quality would still be pretty high.
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#12

Just wanted to say I love this map! What Danukem said!

Billy Boy fan here fwiw.
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User is offline   ck3D 

#13

Video playthrough by Radar, looking like a blind first run (those are always so great to analyze) that actually went quite well. I liked his insistence on finding skips. Missed the Shrinker secret though (and also the commander's one), would have helped him a lot.



This post has been edited by ck3D: 01 January 2022 - 11:37 AM

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User is offline   Rorschach 

#14

52 minutes on first run, with all 3 secrets. I lost an age figuring out how to get into the sewer.

Now that the speed-run gauntlet has been thrown down, I'll see what I can do.

A cracking 'quick' map, which I downloaded as soon as I saw the author. I was not disappointed.

Many thanks, R.

Spoiler

2

User is offline   Mark 

#15

I watched the playthru video. Judging by the quality I would have been impressed if you said it took 3 months instead of 3 days. I don't think I could pull off something this good no matter how much time I was given. There are so many mapping effects and sequences crammed in there. Well done.

This post has been edited by Mark: 02 January 2022 - 06:04 AM

1

User is offline   Jimmy 

  • Let's go Brandon!

#16

It's almost like a playable Duke Xtreme map.
1

User is offline   ck3D 

#17

View PostDanukem, on 31 December 2021 - 06:03 PM, said:

I haven't played this yet but just wanted to say that 3 days of time on a map by a veteran mapper is still a pretty big investment of skills and energy and enough time to make an excellent map. I wish more veteran mappers did "quick" maps like this more often! It would greatly increase the mapping output of the community and the quality would still be pretty high.


I very much agree and this is in fact the logic I always tried to follow with the less ambitious, more experimental maps I dropped throughout the years that looked completely different from the maps I actually spend time on. There's been gaps of several years where I didn't map nor follow the community at all but sometimes even one free week or weekend was enough to wrap something up real quick and materialize under some releases people still bring up to this day (and also some that no one ever brought up again). I've spoken on it a few times before but in general people tend to really overthink what it takes to make a good, basic map. The general retro design trend has been good in that it reminded a lot of people of the rawest of essentials. And again, Mapster32 is so much easier to use and flexible than DOS Build which arguably did suffer from a certain stigma in terms of difficulty for a reason. Making the exact same map in three days would have been impossible back in 1996 (for me anyway), but the tools are just that good now, everyone really is completely free to make their own level and it doesn't have to reinvent the wheel a specific way as long as it's fun and made with care that needs to be there but also relativized.

View PostVagan, on 31 December 2021 - 06:32 PM, said:

Just wanted to say I love this map! What Danukem said!Billy Boy fan here fwiw.


View PostRorschach, on 02 January 2022 - 04:25 AM, said:

52 minutes on first run, with all 3 secrets. I lost an age figuring out how to get into the sewer.Now that the speed-run gauntlet has been thrown down, I'll see what I can do.A cracking 'quick' map, which I downloaded as soon as I saw the author. I was not disappointed.Many thanks, R.
Spoiler



Thanks for the feedback, always appreciate it from players (it's been ten years and I still feel so bad about not ever getting to reply to a person who had directly emailed me feedback about Anorak City shortly after its release, due to straight up losing said email account right after I had received their message). I absolutely love Billy Boy but one reason why I'm only so comfortable with the comparison here is his maps had conceptual grandness to them whereas this is more on the scale of the original game, but he's obviously an inspiration and I think that will mostly show in Blast Radius - which I guess will also explain why my maps have started to look like that when you see the kind of scale I've been working with for the past three years.

View PostMark, on 02 January 2022 - 06:03 AM, said:

I watched the playthru video. Judging by the quality I would have been impressed if you said it took 3 months instead of 3 days. I don't think I could pull off something this good no matter how much time I was given. There are so many mapping effects and sequences crammed in there. Well done.


Thank you, although if there is one message behind everything I do, it's that if some random loser can do it then you can do it too, you just need to set your mind to it. And so I don't doubt one second that you would be able to come up with something like this, be it on unlimited or restricted time. You'd just have to make the 'sacrifice' of learning specific Duke 3D mapping logic as much as I did (which really isn't all that much either; for instance I was claiming this map was pure 1.3d but thinking about it now I'm not even sure if some of the switches I used aren't from 1.4+).

View PostJimmy, on 03 January 2022 - 12:50 AM, said:

It's almost like a playable Duke Xtreme map.


That's a very astute observation, I can see it, I like it. Thanks.

Also there's a new video where YouTube user Custom Longplays is using the HRP, trips me out how the map looks with it. Somehow it's even more bizarre. There are some cursed gameplay moments too, my favorite is around 48:00 when they try to hide from all the drones in the dead-end of the RPG secret, and so the drones all start piling up against the elevator which is the only way out - so they end up crashing into every single one of them on the ride down after a minute-long wait up there, and then take extra fall damage because panic a split second before dying to one final drone. Strats.



This post has been edited by ck3D: 03 January 2022 - 04:03 PM

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User is offline   ck3D 

#18

Here's an updated version of the map because those videos have helped me spot a few issues. Only crucial change is one more pair of boots before the sewers as I realized some players might have ran out before that section (despite being provided with two pairs earlier) and so struggle with the slime in case of close to no health. I also gave noshade value to that spinning bulb sprite that now better marks the switch to the blue key (could have sworn it already had it, not sure it will make an actual difference in-game), lo-tagged a missing shadow sector the Cycloid seemingly liked getting stuck against, and re-aligned a few sprites and textures that weren't right and tickling my OCD (kinda funny given the relatively chaotic settings I guess).

Something I may or may not get around to doing is updating again to make sure that yellow key pad or that one elevator platform up the screen aren't such struggles to push against, and all the switches and mirrors really are 1.3d compatible (I suspect they're not) but honestly I think I'll just move on forwards now.

Attached File(s)



This post has been edited by ck3D: 03 January 2022 - 04:42 PM

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User is offline   Aleks 

#19

View Postck3D, on 03 January 2022 - 03:32 PM, said:

for instance I was claiming this map was pure 1.3d but thinking about it now I'm not even sure if some of the switches I used aren't from 1.4+).


View Postck3D, on 03 January 2022 - 04:41 PM, said:

and all the switches and mirrors really are 1.3d compatible (I suspect they're not) but honestly I think I'll just move on forwards now.

Gotta burst your bubble a bit, but I think that even making the map in 1.4/1.5 Build breaks the 1.3d compatibility, no matter what assets you used (at least IIRC that's how it functioned back in the day) and with sprite-noshade thing even more so now :P But the effort is still admirable and I do believe you only used 1.3d assets anyway, so fuck it!
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User is offline   DNSKILL5 

  • Honored Donor

#20

I loved this map, ck3d. I enjoyed how the level progressed, and would say that the layout would make for a great map to use in dukematch. The area seen in the first screenshot of the OP was my favorite area. It was such a nice looking set-piece. The only time that I had major frustrations was with the crusher, but once that segment is over it really pays off. Great work as always!
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User is offline   ck3D 

#21

View PostDNSKILL420, on 17 January 2022 - 01:01 PM, said:

I loved this map, ck3d. I enjoyed how the level progressed, and would say that the layout would make for a great map to use in dukematch. The area seen in the first screenshot of the OP was my favorite area. It was such a nice looking set-piece. The only time that I had major frustrations was with the crusher, but once that segment is over it really pays off. Great work as always!


Thanks, very happy you liked it. Having good layout for Dukematch really was a concern here (and for the maps I've been making for my episode too - except most of those are ten times larger than this, so a different sort of interesting), if anyone plays it that way I'd be keen to hear comments. I don't remember placing multiplayer-only items, but every player spawn point was set with different possible strategies in mind. Cool to hear you liked that first street too - I really didn't put that much thought into it, not unlike the rest of the map it just sort of happened - make some quick, semi-interesting terrain structure, then boom, all the vibes are in the texture choices. But I am rather happy with the cute sector-over-sector tricks there and whole set-up with visible lower underwater floor, accessible rooftop and mirror - bit of a troll to the engine limits and/or homage to its most basic possibilities. Again, I appreciate your feedback!

While I'm at it, there's a new video of the map by YouTube user Leosin 92:



This post has been edited by ck3D: 17 January 2022 - 06:56 PM

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User is offline   duke3d.exe 

#22

Reminds me of the wacky style of map I was making as a kid back then when I was just starting with build not knowing what i was really doing but having a lot of fun. I had a really big map but accidentally deleted it, that's when I learnd about backups.
1

#23

Beat the map, took me around half an hour to complete, CGS, all secrets found.

Fun little map which took me way more time than it should've. Part of this is might be because I played the original version posted here and got stuck a bit trying to locate the blue keycard. I knew what room I should search, but kept missing the switch for some reason.

I like the aesthetics of the map (the texturing in particular) and general wackiness. It does feel like it belongs on some shovelware Duke CD, but it is still very distinctly a MRCK map (especially the drive-in area, which is the most MRCK of them all). My favourite part was that little romp near the border of the map with yellow keycard, really fun and challenging, although the Battlelord placement was weird: he got lost in action and couldn't contribute to the attack. After dealing with all the other monsters I simply sniped him with RPG. I also dig the lack of conventional weapons in the beginnig and the map forcing you to rely more on exotic weapons, though the tripmines didn't really have that much use (despite the fact that the angled and closed in city section seemingly calls for it). I used like three of them. The ending fight was set up nicely, I even died once there, though it was due to my own facerocket.

Crampedness of the map didn't really detract from experience most of the time, but one part I didn't like is the sloped section leading up to the drive in. There's so much stuff getting in your way that this actually relatively open area feels cramped. The firespitters (or whatcha call it) earsplitting noise combined with very uptempo soundtrack did get on my nervers at one point. Also wasn't a fond of putting the damaging gas sprites on the elevator, especially because you have to take a bit of falling damage there. Not a problem if you're using saves, but these days I tend to save as little as possible.

I also found another softlock in the same junkyard section: you can strafe jump over the fence. Don't know if you fixed that already.

Overall, great map, congrats on release, make more of those speed maps. This tend to lead to great results.

This post has been edited by Mister Sinister: 31 January 2022 - 05:13 AM

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User is offline   ck3D 

#24

Thanks for playing and the feedback, glad you liked the map.

That first switch to the blue key I reckon is funny, I used that light sprite to hopefully hint to it but since I forgot to noshade it it really does just get in the way of the switch in the original version and so has the opposite effect. I haven't really replayed the map since I updated it so I have no idea if noshade makes any difference now, perhaps it doesn't even. I'm actively trying to make progression more intuitive in my levels all the while keeping the semi-intricate layouts, so that's an interesting observation of wrong communication to the player in spite of author intent (honestly should have been obvious from the start in retrospect, too). Still kinda works here since you're only given so much area to explore prior to unlocking the next step but not exactly desired, I need to watch that stuff more closely.

There's this funny thing with the blue key vent skip by the way (the one Radar tried forever in his video) - I actually managed it the first time I ever tested it, right after building that set-up. Didn't think much of it but 'hey cool, this works' and moved onto whatever was next. Turns out it's actually pretty hard to replicate unless you let that Trooper survive and climb on top of it to reach the vent (which is the sole reason for that Trooper's existence behind the gate in the first place), thinking about it now I'm no longer even sure I ever managed it again.

Yellow keycard sequence is my favorite moment too and I'm especially happy that others are into it because Blast Radius maps follow this kind of in, up and around pattern all over the place just on 10x scale, rewarding the player with sights and a feeling of accomplishment after they reach something they thought for a while was out of bounds (or 'unfairly' enemy-exclusive) never gets old. And so whoever liked that moment will probably love a lot about BR, I'm stoked.

Fence clip skip in the junkyard I'm aware of exists/is deliberate but that shouldn't be a soft lock, if it's the one I'm thinking about that takes you to the place where the red key/burning car is and you can just flip that one switch back to the subway of crushed cars? Or do you mean a different one?

A lot of people's least favorite moment seems to be that part just prior to getting to the last city section right after you get out of the sewers, it was never frustrating to me because I spontaneously just blow everything up as soon as I arrive and then there's a lot less hindrance, whichever sprites are left I then use for cover and platforming just jumping around to dodge stuff. Thinking about it though, perhaps it's not the actual clutter that's the real problem and the 'mechanics' would have worked better with finer and more appropriate terrain work than one big slope.

Dodging the damaging gas on the elevator should always be possible and most often there should be 10+ health packs around if not on the elevator somewhere but I'm aware that's just not going to be everyone's cup of tea, precision in Duke 3D typically is a bit frustrating.

Battlelord dropping the world I don't think ever happened to me but I've had that with some of the Commanders before, I think that's a matter of first walls on all the sloped sectors and how to the engine anything that's technically below the flat Z value of a floor really becomes finicky player space (also the trick I'm using to split certain sprites, signs etc. vertically - works in classic mode at least). It's actually really easy to make enemies straight up unreachable or untriggerable like that similarly to via a parallaxed sky trick; here I tried to optimize ideal positioning (with stayputs) all the while trying to ensure that the player could always at least shoot them. Design was so spontaneous I really never planned anything about the terrain at all, the map just sort of fell into place and so at the end of the day at times it performs in basic ways.

Also cool to see people are into the boss fight, originally the boss was never supposed to drop down on the screen like that, just the screen would explode and reveal the face of the real thing instead of the one in the movie but for some reason unless I spawned the Cycloid so high up it would always get just stuck on the wall. I kinda liked the funny dynamics of the fall at first but I think I really would have preferred the ground spawn - right now is pretty hilarious though, the level basically gives up and just surrenders the Cycloid to you - 'here, here's what you came for, here's your shit' like a fistful of peanuts thrown into a cage.

View Postduke3d.exe, on 29 January 2022 - 04:13 PM, said:

Reminds me of the wacky style of map I was making as a kid back then when I was just starting with build not knowing what i was really doing but having a lot of fun. I had a really big map but accidentally deleted it, that's when I learnd about backups.


Having a lot of fun is it, yeah. Sorry to hear about your lost map, I know the feeling (that's how we all learned about back-ups really), every other save of mine is a Save As just in case and even then autosave.map still saves the day on the regular (but OG Build didn't have that).

This post has been edited by ck3D: 31 January 2022 - 08:10 AM

1

User is offline   Aleks 

#25

View Postck3D, on 31 January 2022 - 08:04 AM, said:

That first switch to the blue key I reckon is funny, I used that light sprite to hopefully hint to it but since I forgot to noshade it it really does just get in the way of the switch in the original version and so has the opposite effect. I haven't really replayed the map since I updated it so I have no idea if noshade makes any difference now, perhaps it doesn't even. I'm actively trying to make progression more intuitive in my levels all the while keeping the semi-intricate layouts, so that's an interesting observation of wrong communication to the player in spite of author intent (honestly should have been obvious from the start in retrospect, too). Still kinda works here since you're only given so much area to explore prior to unlocking the next step but not exactly desired, I need to watch that stuff more closely.

Yeah this part got me stuck for the longest as well, also the fact that it opened the back loop to the beginning of the map was kinda confusing there, as when I didn't find a way to open it there, I went back and tried to explore it all over again. Thought it was just me playing in the night and being a dumbass there, so actually glad to see I wasn't the only one :P At least I'll remember that switch for my next playthrough, wherever that might be. However, I think it was one of your least clear maps in terms of intuitivity really.

Quote

A lot of people's least favorite moment seems to be that part just prior to getting to the last city section right after you get out of the sewers, it was never frustrating to me because I spontaneously just blow everything up as soon as I arrive and then there's a lot less hindrance, whichever sprites are left I then use for cover and platforming just jumping around to dodge stuff. Thinking about it though, perhaps it's not the actual clutter that's the real problem and the 'mechanics' would have worked better with finer and more appropriate terrain work than one big slope.

Yeah, I think it's both the slope and crampedness with sprites that get in the way there, it's kinda easy to fall in the sewer acid and then having to go all the way back to be able to jump up again.

Quote

Battlelord dropping the world I don't think ever happened to me but I've had that with some of the Commanders before, I think that's a matter of first walls on all the sloped sectors and how to the engine anything that's technically below the flat Z value of a floor really becomes finicky player space (also the trick I'm using to split certain sprites, signs etc. vertically - works in classic mode at least). It's actually really easy to make enemies straight up unreachable or untriggerable like that similarly to via a parallaxed sky trick; here I tried to optimize ideal positioning (with stayputs) all the while trying to ensure that the player could always at least shoot them. Design was so spontaneous I really never planned anything about the terrain at all, the map just sort of fell into place and so at the end of the day at times it performs in basic ways.

I think I fought the Battlelord there "separately" from the commanders/troopers or don't remember much about that really, but I don't think it was problem in him getting stuck in the slope. BTW, it's a good tip with hiding sprites below Z coordinate in sloped sectors, I've mostly had this mechanic working on my disadvantage so far, but it's a good idea to use it. It seems to work in Polymost as well.

2

User is offline   ck3D 

#26

One of my most unclear yeah? Ha, I thought my older levels like Anorak City & co. or maybe the Anarchy City maps would earn that cake - basically everything I've released in the past that felt like a one-off adventure vs. a traditional Duke Nukem level, the progression in those I only realized over the years was overly cryptic due to the open layout, lack of environmental clues and low visibility (basically ensuring you had to be me to navigate them). Here at least the blockout guides you around, but yeah I guess that switch kinda sucks. Just played the map again and I think it's easier to spot now though. Side note - pretty cool how no one has complained about the red key door and switch combination puzzle yet - that was the one segment I suspected most players to find the hardest to read, but I guess that view screen and camera combo does work well as a hint.

Slime pit is a speedrun trap remember, it's supposed to be a frustrating time loss whenever you fall into it, I think it's cool if getting back up is a bit of a struggle and you have to go up the stream for ten seconds. It's really the left side of the terrain (as you exit the sewers) that could have used more subtlety and variety, right now it's super blockish and so it kind of plays blockish.

Re: speedrun concerns I just had my first lap through the level since release and got a 7:03:09 on Let's Rock with a save at each key door (won some time using an Octabrain for the junkyard fence skip), so tiny baby steps but no one's competing so I'll do what's fun. I'd encourage giving the level a try like that again - focusing on nothing but the sequencing and barely shooting at stuff, the last area gets really packed with monsters just as you get the RPG in a fashion that's borderline crazy but really my favorite amount of manageable.

I wonder if the sprite slope trick is compatible with giving sprites a different sectnum than the one they belong to now, after reading your post, so that one could try and split them even on flat surfaces, or play with SE31's some funny ways. Guess not though and that they would go by the properties of the sector they've been newly assigned-but-not-moved to.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 31 January 2022 - 01:04 PM

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User is offline   Aleks 

#27

View Postck3D, on 31 January 2022 - 12:59 PM, said:

I wonder if the sprite slope trick is compatible with giving sprites a different sectnum than the one they belong to now, after reading your post, so that one could try and split them even on flat surfaces, or play with SE31's some funny ways. Guess not though and that they would go by the properties of the sector they've been newly assigned-but-not-moved to.

After reading this, I just imagined how cool it would be if the trick was possible with floor-aligned, sloped sprites - but saddly it doesn't work like that :(
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#28

I think you guys misunderstood what I meant by battlelord being lost in action. He spawned on top of the hill way too far across the map (where he's supposed to spawn I believe), but he couldn't contribute to the fight. He couldn't hit anything with the chaingun, couldn't hit with grenades, so I've dealt with the enemies and then sniped him with RPG. Spawning him anywhere near the actual fight would be very unfair.

The problem with blue keycard I think is not only where you put the switch, but also you picked a sprite which looks like a decorative sprite under blue illumination. The clues are there, but the button sprite is hard to spot since it looks like part of the scenery.

Yeah, sorry abouth the skip, I forgot about the switch. The damaging gas on the elevators is avoidable, but you can still take like a little bit of damage.
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User is offline   ck3D 

#29

No I think I did understand what you meant to say happened, just sometimes in those situations the enemy will straight up become inactive until you shoot it, or sometimes it will be awake but just wander around its stayput sector like it's not seeing you, or sometimes it will attack but the shots will miss like what happened on your playthrough. First wall interference I suspect to be coming down to Z levels blocking either range of fire or enemy line of sight if the angle is too awkward or weird. Nothing that couldn't be prevented by putting actual thought into the terrain work instead of just s l o p e s, I honestly just couldn't be that bothered because those situations seem very RNG dependent (as in based on whichever position the enemies choose to move to), and 99% of the map is largely playable. Definitely not ideal, though - some jank. It's always a bit of a shame when that happens with the Battlelord though because it's in a pretty cool and strategic spot for that fight. I've mostly had it happen with the odd Commander.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 01 February 2022 - 05:06 PM

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User is offline   ck3D 

#30

They may be too shy to plug it themselves so here's DNSKILL420's playthrough on Damn I'm Good:



Was 420'ing through it earlier and lost it at the part where one of the drones increasingly pressured you then hit you, and as if you were now taking it personal you proceeded to headbutt through like 6 of them. I have no idea how you even survived that, but cool stuff. Thanks for recording this.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 03 February 2022 - 12:22 PM

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