[Aleks]

What's this thing?
We play through a set of maps/mods during the month, and use this thread to discuss it as we're still all fresh with our comments/opinions/feelings about the maps.

What's the purpose?
Basically, there are 4 purposes:

• Showcasing some of the older mods/maps to wider public - they definitely deserve the attention!
• Getting more people to actually enjoy and appreciate the user content - because let's be honest, over the past 25 years this was really what kept Duke alive after all.
• ...and while we're at it - keeping Duke alive by still enjoying it, as there's no new games in the franchise on the horizon (and let's be honest, they wouldn't be as good as some of this stuff!).
• Having a more structurized discussion on maps than what's going in "Last map you played" thread - which is great, but it's basically a monologue most of the time.

Can I join?
Sure, as long as you find some spare time during the month to play the stuff that's on the table!

Why a month?
Because people have lives, jobs or other stuff to do (like mapping). For smaller maps, this could be shorter time - it's all up to debate in the future!

What port should I use? Are mods allowed? Where to get the maps?
It's entirely up to you how you play the game, so you can use whatever port or mod allowed - it would be cool to state in your posts what you're using too, as there might be some slight differences between the ports! As for the maps, they should be always linked within the first post.

How should I play the maps or post about them?
Again, it's up to you. You can finish them all in one go or play them one by one whenever you feel like. On Doom forums, there's a rule that you should keep the pace by not posting about a map that has a higher number than the day of the month, so e.g. on 6th you shouldn't post about map 7 etc. I think that might be a good practice if there's a large interest in this, but first let's see how active the thread is for a start - so if there's nothing going on, feel free to post about whatever map you want to.

Previous edition:November 2021 - older maps from various authors, selected by Aleks

For this month, despite FistMarine's dilligent plans to play Christmas mods (since he'll be hosting the even from the next January onwards, he'll have plenty of opportunity to faciliate them!), maps by two Czech authors - Peter Kucera and Lukas Cerovsky - were chosen! These guys made quite a bunch of levels back around 1998-2003 (with especially Kucera being quite prolific), with one joint effort in the form of Lost Highway episode, possibly also the highlight of the pack. All their maps can be downloaded from CGS website - however, to save us all the hassle, I've packed them into a single convenient archive, which can be downloaded below:
 Kucera and Cerovsky.rar (4.48MB)
Number of downloads: 166
It should also be noted that most of the maps came either without a txt file or with one just stating the name of the author.
Here is the list of the maps. I must confess I haven't played any of them until last night, when I tackled the 3 first Kucera maps to get a grip of what's in the menu for this month. I listed them in chronological order, which makes for some nice opportunity to study the progress of these mappers.

Peter Kucera:
1) Skola
2) Sicilie
3) Banka
4) Doly
5) Southpark - Dukematch only
6) Boyard*
7) Risk
8) Vlak
9) Aliens
10) Letiste
11) XXX
12) Petrin
13) Stadion - Dukematch only
14) Reichskanzlei*

Lukas Cerovsky:
1) Palace Charitas
2) Divadlo
3) Hasit

Joint effort:
1) Lost Highway*

The stuff marked with (*) contain new art/cons.

As mentioned, I have played the first 3 maps from Kucera, which might not be too revealing on the overall quality. Here's a bit of write-ups about them:

Skola is probably his first map. In theory, all the effects work as intended (I especially liked the little "puzzle" required at the very end to reveal the nukebutton), but the overall design is quite bland with lots of pretty much random texture choices and no shadows at all. The school bus at the beginning is quite nice though. Also the map is very tight with supplies at the beginning, so you will be struggling for a while before finding some actual guns - and depending on the path you take and how many secrets you find, you might struggle even more. Also, it's worth noting that in this map (and in the next 2 maps as well), some of the secrets are actually obligatory for progression. The map took me almost 15 minutes, mostly due to having to progress slowly at the beginning.


Sicilie is another map, a very small one I might add. This one took me about 8 minutes and it wasn't too pleasurable 8 minutes - the lack of ammo and health is even more present here, also most monsters are spawned with respawns as a "surprise" (in complete opposition to Skola which lacked any respawns and pretty much any other kind of dynamics at all). The design here is a lot better, more "classic", with some nice shadows, but the map is quite claustrophobic with lots of pig cops in small corridors. The ending battle might have been cool and challenging, but it's easy to just cheap it by opening the door that closes behind you.


Banka takes place mostly around a bank, which we have to - of course - rob. It struggles with the same problems as the 2 earlier maps, and the beginning where you are pitted against a commander, 2 octabrains and a bunch of troopers with just a pistol is quite annoying. The whole map takes about 5 minutes and unless you find the non-obligatory secret, you will struggle with ammo until the end. The design is at similar level to Sicilie in this one.

[LakiSoft]

Just played Aliens.map. Interesting layout, nice details, my only complainant would be the lack of ammo at certain spots. Aleks i am pretty sure you'll agree with lack of ammo thing. Otherwise really nice map.

I used an older version of Duke HRP (2007) bundled with SD Duke gameplay modification addon.

[ck3D]

Great selection, this month - all of it but I absolutely love Hasit by Cerovsky in particular, which has always been one of my personal favorite user maps. It's a bit challenging but I hope more people play it regardless.

[LakiSoft]

Just finished Banka.map. It was nice detailed looking map, short but fun. It had more ammo available than Aliens.map.



Also Charitas.map is done too. At first moment i was confused what to do, but eventually i found my way around. There are moments in this map which really do forces you to look around and use your brain to achieve certain goals. Anyway, nice detailed classic.

[NNC]

Cerovsky has made more maps though: Metro, Bitva, Boeing (reviewed on MSDN). They are available here: http://www.cerovsky.net/duke/index.htm
Metro was an interesting one because it was based on a real location called Vysehrad in Prague, when the subway went above the surface in the middle.

Btw. Lost Highway is the highlight of the duo, and I enjoy Reichskanzlei as well despite the dumb shrinker puzzle and some well hidden progression issues (ie the jetpack). Hasit is very well made, but playing it is very annoying.

[Aleks]

The Watchtower, on 05 December 2021 - 02:44 AM, said:

Cerovsky has made more maps though: Metro, Bitva, Boeing (reviewed on MSDN). They are available here: http://www.cerovsky.net/duke/index.htm
Metro was an interesting one because it was based on a real location called Vysehrad in Prague, when the subway went above the surface in the middle.

Btw. Lost Highway is the highlight of the duo, and I enjoy Reichskanzlei as well despite the dumb shrinker puzzle and some well hidden progression issues (ie the jetpack). Hasit is very well made, but playing it is very annoying.

Cool, thanks for pointing this out! Also, that page links to Peter Kucera's page, which has been updated as recently as 2019 (despite looking like 1997 geocities wayback machine)! Nice to see these guys are still active one way or another.

I get the feeling that quite few of these maps are based on real life locations. Played Petrin yesterday and it seems based on some park in Czechia, pretty cool and original theme actually, has a very European vibe there, the general theme of the place reminded me of a place I visited in Vienna few months ago.

So far I'm enjoying Kucera's maps. They are rather small and quite challenging (I've already got used to having to kill a bunch of first tougher enemies with just the pistol), but the balance is getting better from map to map. Same with design - Doly and Petrin are my favourite ones so far. I'll do a more detailed write-ups on them in a few days. Also the themes are quite neat, with usually more than just regular city/hi-tech/alien kind of stuff.

[NNC]

I haven't played Doly in about 15 years, but from what I remember it was a very difficult level.

[ck3D]

The Watchtower, on 05 December 2021 - 02:44 AM, said:

Hasit is very well made, but playing it is very annoying.

I have similar memories, the start is rather unfair with the player being thrown so many Pigcops and yet so few apparent items at them, and then there's some obscure navigation - like that one notorious platforming section in the back alley (I think I remember Kim at DN-R also kindly pointing out the spike in bullshit there). But the map never annoyed me per se (especially since I'm not caught off guard by the difficulty anymore), I do remember getting stuck a lot and maybe even having to check how to proceed next in Build once or twice the first time around but in a way that was fun enough to sort of play along with the offered challenge. Felt sort of like solving a complex Doom map that barely makes sense layout-wise as opposed to a smooth ride that would guide you by the hand. It's one of those that only gets better as you replay it. I always thought the world building, little sequences and overall mostly clean and creative design were original and especially great for its time period, making the chaotic elements tolerable (all the more once you know what you're going in for). My only real complaints would be how the map seems to tire out around the supermarket section, although that's where the map ends and it's cool that the location exists, perhaps it wasn't exactly needed; and the last time I played it (which was way back, honestly), I remember lamenting the small scale a few times.

[Forge]

Aleks, on 03 December 2021 - 11:33 AM, said:

It should also be noted that most of the maps came either without a txt file or with one just stating the name of the author.

not important:
i downloaded the maps directly from the author's own sites, but they didn't include templates - i'm the one that put those text files in with nothing but their name to make sure they were credited for their work.
if they had a small blurb on their website describing the map, i copy-pasted that into the text file as well. (most didn't).
and I apologize for 'retiring' before I completed reviewing the collection.

as far as kucera maps go (with a few exceptions) pretty plain and short. stingy with supplies.
as for Cerovsky maps - decent sized, look good, finding the hidden buttons and keys gets annoying

[NNC]

Btw. I'm surprised Palace Charitas got the best score on various site from the Cerovsky collection. I remember it as babby's first map, and replaying it didn't exactly change my opinion. There were some genuine things like the wall textures or the 3D doors you can see through, but ridiculous button placements and ugly sprite usage clearly hampers the map's quality. I will play Metro, Divadlo and Hasit today (don't care about the other two as airplane levels suck by default, and Bitva was just a Battlefield type of map I also never cared), I check if they hold up well.

[Aleks]

I have finished most of Kucera maps and started Cerovsky. In order not to make a few pages long post (and since I don't feel like/have time of writing it all up right now), I'll start with a bunch of maps:

Doly

Now we're talking! I actually liked this map, mostly due to it's quite unique theme - there's mining tunnels and machinery, we start on a biplane and finish inside a submarine. The problems that haunted previous maps persist - there's still places where you'll struggle for ammo, but it seems more balanced and fun. The map is about 15-20 minutes long, there's quite some room for exploration, despite the path being quite straightforward. The design is much better - especially the plane is quite well designed. The ending is a bit abrupt here though - the final scene of launching torpedeos from the submarine could have been much nicer, e.g. like in Dread October. Here it's just that - press 3 switches and the 4th one actually finishes the level (which is quite original way to finish a level, don't remember if I ever finished a level by... firing a gun?!).


Risk

This one won't take more than 5 minutes. Duke enters a Czech TV show, which is mostly about surviving through some aliens in a TV studio and around a street. Guns are super scarce, but it's possible to find enough to kill everyone. Not much more to say about it. The layout is quite OK, with lots of interconnections.


Vlak

A train map, using that neat effects of conveyor belts for surroundings. If you fall from the train, you die. The train is also more oldschool, which is a nice touch. However, as with all train maps, this one also suffers from linearity and crampedness. Also, the first 2 secrets are basically mandatory here - one contains a keycard and the other, well, and RPG that is necessary to survive a face-off against a Battlelord surprise attack. The gameplay is quite hectic due to amount of enemies and - who would expect it - super scarce ammo. It only gets a bit better towards the end. The level delivers as a 5-10 minutes train map, but leaves the player a bit dissatisfied in the end.


Aliens

A level partly based on Alien movies, and a good one at it. A Czech (or so it seems, judging language on the viewscreen...) spaceship has been attacked by aliens. Design is, alongside Doly, probably the best I've seen from Kucera. There's also some neat effects, including the final destruction of the ship after escaping through a launch pod. However, the player should be careful not to get softlocked from the red key elevator, due to doors located too close to it it won't be possible to call it back. Again, there's parts were the ammo is super scarce, especially at the beginning - also considering there's plenty of routes to go to and not all of them contain new guns/ammo, it can be tricky. The level takes 20-30 minutes to complete, there's a lot of backtracking. The atmosphere is very good, although everything is too dark for a comfortable experience all the way throughout. There's some puzzles with buttons (the combination can be found somewhere) and a nice "puzzle" secret that contains atomic health.

The Watchtower, on 07 December 2021 - 12:05 AM, said:

[...] Bitva was just a Battlefield type of map I also never cared [...]

I have actually played this one and it's surprisingly good, probably liked it more than anything from Kucera so far. So many really cool ideas, although the beginning might be a bit off-putting.

[LakiSoft]

Finished Letiste.map. Thankfully it didn't took me more than about 10 minutes. It was relatively short map, and detailed fair enough. I enjoyed this one.

[Aleks]

The remainder of Kucera maps (besides the ones with new art):

Letiste

This is mostly a plane map, with all the good and bad things connected to this kind of theme. The plane seems to be still landed at the airport, we get to see one wing and also are able to travel through part of the building. Everything looks good and is functional, there's also one (optional) puzzle with shooting an automatic rocket through the whole deck. However, as with plane maps - everything is stupidly cramped with seats and of course there is the absolute plague of all the plane maps, meaning unblocked, opaque curtains where monsters can shoot you without being seen. This one has it especially dickish with turrets placed on the other side of the curtain. Other than that, the map is once again quite short. For a change, we are given a shotgun early on, so the ammo scarcity doesn't feel so bad.


XXX

XXX Stacy recreation, version 52081. I still have no idea how such a mediocre level got so many different remakes, this is probably 4th or so I have played so far. I also have a feeling this one might have been made to be played with Penthouse Paradise art, as there was some missing art in a cinema. Again, there's all Kucera kind of gimmicks here - mostly scarce ammo at the beginning, to the point for a moment I thought it's gonna be another "rush to the exit button" kind of map like Risk. However, this one was much longer, about 20 minutes (and with quite some backtracking around), also the ammo got more balanced about halfway through. There's been some nicely designed rooms and some quite generic, but overall the map felt OK.


Petrin

As I mentioned, this is probably my favourite Kucera map so far, due to the unusual theme done in a nice way. The map doesn't feel either too open for random enemy encounters or too claustrophobic, there's quite some focal points, includinga sightseeing tower, which was the highlight of the level for me. The only problem was, getting out of the tower after obtaining the keycard (jumping through the hole in the roof) was a bit janky, the jump had to be quite perfect not to get squished and to actually match the height of transport SE sprite. The map also takes us through a very small museum and nicely designed astronomic observatory, ending at a dome with telescope and quite tricky Battlelord fight.

[LakiSoft]

Aleks, on 10 December 2021 - 05:14 AM, said:

Petrin

As I mentioned, this is probably my favourite Kucera map so far, due to the unusual theme done in a nice way. The map doesn't feel either too open for random enemy encounters or too claustrophobic, there's quite some focal points, includinga sightseeing tower, which was the highlight of the level for me. The only problem was, getting out of the tower after obtaining the keycard (jumping through the hole in the roof) was a bit janky, the jump had to be quite perfect not to get squished and to actually match the height of transport SE sprite. The map also takes us through a very small museum and nicely designed astronomic observatory, ending at a dome with telescope and quite tricky Battlelord fight.
duke0088.png duke0090.png

Ah thanks man, i thought i missed jetpack somewhere. I can't jump out the tower. I either got squished or either do nothing when i jump thru that hole. I will see how to solve this.

EDIT: I finished Petrin.map. According to my tastes, this map is well designed, my only complainant would be that hole thing.

[Aleks]

Gingis Khan, on 10 December 2021 - 10:49 AM, said:

Ah thanks man, i thought i missed jetpack somewhere. I can't jump out the tower. I either got squished or either do nothing when i jump thru that hole. I will see how to solve this.

EDIT: I finished Petrin.map. According to my tastes, this map is well designed, my only complainant would be that hole thing.

eduke32 2021-12-10 03-37-43-379-tile.jpg

Glad to see it helped! Yeah, the hole was quite annoying and I though I'm doing something wrong as well there.

Fun fact: the last building in Petrin, Stefanikova Hvezdarna, is based on this real life building: https://en.wikipedia...27s_Observatory

[LakiSoft]

Just finished following: Sicilie.map, Skola.map and Vlak.map and here's my thoughts of each map.

Sicilie

IMO, the map layout itself was more or less fine, reminds me of quality of official 3D Realms levels. Yeah i only disliked lack of ammo and health pickup. I was forced to drink fountain water to recover health after almost each encounter with pig cops i had. Initially i was confused what to do after i unlocked Yellow key door. But i eventually find the secret room, which IMO wasn't much the problem as finding the secret switch that is opening the little Nuke Button containing sector. Otherwise it was ok short map, but due everything mentioned it took me even 20 minutes to complete. But my real complainant would be ammo lack of course.



Skola

Time to back to School. Honestly, i felt some typical Atomic Edition \ Plutonium Pack \ The Birth vibe in there. Enough detailed for my tastes though. Nice not too short, not too long map. There was some lack of health here and there, but much less than in Sicilie of course.
BTW, small trivia: What the heck Abraham Lincoln's picture is doing in school situated in Czech Republic? See the screenshots to see what i mean.



Vlak

A Train map, a bit claustrophobic, but fun enough, good detailed. It had lack of health though, as i was consantly low on health thruout entire map, until i reached final room and found health in there. Also it's funny to mention how i fallen off the cliff at beginning part of the map. And even more fun how many times i was vaporized by fucking Battlelord!
But due the very nature map, getting vaporized by Battlelord and constantly being low on health, is what it actually made me a great time and fun blazing thru this little map. Also starting point of map reminded me a bit of FPS Blood's third level which also had an ongoing train.



Fun fact: Word Vlak also means Train not only in Czech, but also in Croatian. (probably on Slovenian and Slovakian too) While in my native language, Serbian, we say "voz" for train. The main reason why i am saying this is that, when i initially heard of Vlak.map, i originally thought the author was Croatian. I mean, Vedran Jelenic also made some nice maps for Duke, so maybe i thought it was him originally.

XXX

For an remake of XXX Stacy, with exception of the starting area, it does have nothing to do with actual XXX Stacy. Level was okay one, sometimes funny, other times annoying, but in essence okay level. I won't comment much on this one.

[NNC]

Aleks, on 10 December 2021 - 05:14 AM, said:

XXX

XXX Stacy recreation, version 52081. I still have no idea how such a mediocre level got so many different remakes, this is probably 4th or so I have played so far. I also have a feeling this one might have been made to be played with Penthouse Paradise art, as there was some missing art in a cinema. Again, there's all Kucera kind of gimmicks here - mostly scarce ammo at the beginning, to the point for a moment I thought it's gonna be another "rush to the exit button" kind of map like Risk. However, this one was much longer, about 20 minutes (and with quite some backtracking around), also the ammo got more balanced about halfway through. There's been some nicely designed rooms and some quite generic, but overall the map felt OK.
duke0086.png

AFAIK, Penthouse art is mandatory for all Kucera maps. This use Penthouse babes as well, but RK and others use Penthouse textures too. I remember this because I ran into HOM effect a few times back then.

[Aleks]

The Watchtower, on 10 December 2021 - 11:10 PM, said:

AFAIK, Penthouse art is mandatory for all Kucera maps. This use Penthouse babes as well, but RK and others use Penthouse textures too. I remember this because I ran into HOM effect a few times back then.

I didn't run into any HOM so far, besides that one room in XXX (cinema). Also checked on Kucera's site, it only mentions XXX and Boyard requiring Penthouse art (dunno about RK, but it comes with a lot of its own art and other files).

Anyway, I really appreciate you highlighting these 2 guys in the first place here, the names rang me a bell, but I don't think I've ever played any of their maps before. And they are all well worth checking out, probably some of the closest things to the "classic OG Duke style" I've played so far - so no wonder you of all people would enjoy them.

Quote

Vlak

A Train map, a bit claustrophobic, but fun enough, good detailed. It had lack of health though, as i was consantly low on health thruout entire map, until i reached final room and found health in there. Also it's funny to mention how i fallen off the cliff at beginning part of the map. And even more fun how many times i was vaporized by fucking Battlelord!

I really like how the landscapes look in this map with the HRP (especially your first screenshot for this map), that sky combined with the ground create a really impressive visual effects in this mode!

[Forge]

Aleks, on 11 December 2021 - 03:37 AM, said:

probably some of the closest things to the "classic OG Duke style" I've played so far

try maps from eye de cul of the duke espania community

[LakiSoft]

Aleks, on 11 December 2021 - 03:37 AM, said:

I didn't run into any HOM so far, besides that one room in XXX (cinema). Also checked on Kucera's site, it only mentions XXX and Boyard requiring Penthouse art (dunno about RK, but it comes with a lot of its own art and other files).

Anyway, I really appreciate you highlighting these 2 guys in the first place here, the names rang me a bell, but I don't think I've ever played any of their maps before. And they are all well worth checking out, probably some of the closest things to the "classic OG Duke style" I've played so far - so no wonder you of all people would enjoy them.


I really like how the landscapes look in this map with the HRP (especially your first screenshot for this map), that sky combined with the ground create a really impressive visual effects in this mode!

Thanks Aleks. Note that i used an older Duke HRP from year 2007 with some features from SD Duke Addon and Sewerside level by Iggy, such as double pistols. Speaking of beautiful detailed sky textures, i dunno how those HD sky textures and other HRP resources are updated in latest HRP versions. Maybe those newer HRP versions have even more beautiful sky textures.

As for December Map Club progress, i've done some more stuff.

Risk

Short but fun level. Details are ok, typical for late 90s time. Reminds me of some good looking user maps from that period.



Stadion and South Park

Although they are Dukematch only levels, i still decided to play them and explore, for no any particular reason at all. But still they are part of December Map Club. So i hope at least i gave some kind of ad for those good looking Dukematch-only maps.

[Aleks]

I've started with Cerovsky maps and so far it's a blast

Bitva

Moving to Cerovsky, I didn't know what to expect. This seems to be his first map dating back to 1998, so I didn't expect much. The beginning of the map indeed didn't enchant me, as it throws us right into the battlefield where Duke is quite underpowered against his enemies, with rocket shooters and scarce ammo. Until finding the shotgun and clearing this area, the gameplay is quite hectic. However, further down the road the map turned out to be really cool. A lot of the stuff on the initial battlefield can be destroyed in quite a spectacular way. Also one of the rocket shooters here can be turned off, unfortunately the 2nd one will just keep shooting. We visit the barracks and army training facility, which are very nicely designed with classic texture choices and shadows that are superb to most stuff we have seen back in 1998. The map is also quite a thing from the "technical" point of view - it even uses the dummy 2-way train for one of the effects to time the activation/deactivation, which might be one of the first maps to use this technique and if Lukas found it out by himself in 1998, then hats off. This war/military kind of theme is quite uncommon in Duke maps really, but here it was done very well. There's also 2 cool secret places around the training facilities which will trigger as you try out your training routines, but I won't spoil more about them. Towards the end, there's an 8 button puzzle - I don't think there's been a solution for it hidden anywhere around the map, so had to just check this one in Mapster. Another really cool thing is one of the last rooms (where we get to summon the boss), which turns from a karaoke bar into a spy ops center as we walk in there, the effect is very smooth and impressive. The boss fight itself is also pretty cool, with nicely placed "distractors" to draw our attention and the rocket shooter still being vigilant. If other Cerovsky maps are of this high quality, we're in for a treat!


Palace Charitas

The ammo at the beginning was super stingy, also the progression was quite obscure before finding the first keycard. In fact it seems that the secrets were easier to find in this one than the major objectives. As for the design, it's on a top-notch level for the time it was made and I'm pretty sure it would still pass as a good looking map by today's standards. The map seems to be recreating a real life location, which is a dance school - which is quite original, but also doesn't offer much in terms of complexity of the layout. Lukas seems to squeeze as much as possible from it due to making interesting puzzles that don't feel like they're dragging the map, but rather kind of a "point-and-click" adventure game with lots of monsters around. Texturing and shading are very nice in this one.


Boeing 747

Another plane map, but this one didn't annoy me with opaque shoot through curtains or cramped seats, as the scale was fairly OK here. As with previous Kucera maps, the progression requires some thinking, but I must say I really like this kind of gameplay. The locations are fairly small and closed, so they are fairly easy to navigate and figure out, also the maps are pretty linear (despite plenty of secrets and optional locations) and everything has its own logic. Again, the design is very good, the textures used for the interior of the plane are quite original and there's 3 different travel classes, each having different kinds of seats, toilets etc. The wings and sky passing by that can be seen through the windows looks neat, but my favourite details were probably the wheels retracted and seen in the bottom, technical part of the plane. Also the author knows what he's doing tech-wise, with a flawless transition between two levels of the plane made with silent teleporter and a curtain. There's some interesting secrets as well this time. Overall, it's probably the most entertaining plane map I've played so far.

[LakiSoft]

Just finished Doly.map. The beginning part of the level was indeed frustrating because of lack of ammo and somewhat confusing layout, but the final part, inspired by Dread October, was what makes this level unique and great. The level is well detailed too. If we ignore the fact with ammo lack and confusing path, it was great fun playing this level overall.

[Merlijn]

I played a couple of maps, as usual I'll probably won't have the time to play everthing.
(also makes me wonder if these threads should have a smaller selection of maps, perhaps that will garner some more responses).

I picked 4 maps based on the comments here and my own tastes, so here it goes:

Hasit

I tried this one first since ck3D recommended it, probably not a good idea because the gameplay was extremely frustrating to me.
The scarcity of ammo and supplies was annoying, you basically have to be lucky for one of the pig cops to drop a shotgun or else the first part is nearly unplayable.
The opening is a cool idea in concept, but mostly really annoying in execution. Too cramped, it's impossible to avoid damage, not enough items to heal you up afterwards.
In short the first minutes of the map already put me in a bad mood and it didn't get much better afterwards.
It also doesn't help that you need to traverse the opening section 2 more times, which inevitably drains even more health from you.

I'll save you all from more ramblings and will say that the map looks really good, very neat design and some original locations. And a lot of the puzzles are at least good in theory.
Plus calling the fire department was a cool touch! Overall I'd recommend to play some of the other maps first, so you're at least a bit aware of the BS that this author will occassionally
throw at you.

Letiste

This is the airplane/airport map, I actually quite enjoyed this one. The plane itself is annoying as Aleks rightfully pointed out.
Enemies and turrets are able to shoot you through curtains before you can see them which is just a dick move. But the rest of the map was quite enjoyable, the secrets are really well done
(there's 2 in particular which made me think 'ooh that's clever') and design is very clean. I also enjoyed the final fight, it's difficult but you're given just enough ammo and health to survive it.
Plus if you find the secrets you'll have a pretty big advantage. Cool little map!

Petrin

Picked this one next thanks to Aleks's comments. The map opens inside the lift that took you to the top of the hill, which immediately started things off on a good note (I always wanted to do something similar).
I wonder if the entire map is based on a real life location? It sure seems that way. Ammo is still pretty scarce but not to the point of getting annoying. As the others pointed out, the hole in the building
is kinda janky and can kill you if you're not careful, which is a shame and a pretty big downside. Also it's possible to get to the final room without picking up the RPG, in which case you're pretty much screwed.
So don't forget to hunt for the RPG first!

Overall quite good and my favorite of the 4 I played, I enjoyed the original theme, the tower on top of the hill looked cool and gameplay was good except for the mentioned downsides.

Vlak

ooh boy, this map... I have a soft spot for train maps (or maps on moving vehicles in general) so I checked this one out of curiosity. It's cleary based on the train map from Blood, which is basically the ultimate
train map. Unfortunately this one isn't nearly as good. Falling off the train is supposed to kill you but it's possible to avoid this from certain angles (in which case you can finish the map in 10 seconds). The cramped
nature of the opening area plus the enemy opposition will also result in some cheap deaths if you're not careful. And then there's a secret that's pretty much obligatory (unless you can somehow beat a battlelord
with only a pistol :\) and it still doesn't give you enough ammo. In the end I decided to wait until the battlelord walked off the ledge of the train, not sure if that was intended but it was by far the easiest way to get
past that point.
After that hurdle the map becomes a lot easier, and plays fine enough although it ends rather abrubtly. The moving train effect looks quite good but other than there's not much to see.

[NNC]

Played Divadlo.... wow, this map could have been really really good without those annoying moments that intentionally made the map almost unplayabe.

At the start, you have to find a secret to move through the laser tripbomb. You also have to find another secret in the exact same area, if you don't want to fight a commander with only pistol around. Then you have to kill a babe to get a keycard (I guess lots of people don't kill babes, I usually do, but not always). Then you have to find an almost invisible crack in the bathroom to enter a really cramped underwater segment, where sharks and octabrains are hovering through the ceiling. Then you have to fight a battlelord that is totally unfit for the location. Then you are literally trolled to get the red keycard (if you actually find it and don't travel outside the building to get completely distracted), and of course, atomic health (which alone can't save you) is hidden. Then going backwards, you can either cheat the puzzle with the blocked entry, or have to find a secret switch to move to the intended area (which is actually very clever, just not executed well). And finally, you have to use a blue palette multiswitch you can't use properly during the end.

And all of these unnecessary shit in a really good looking level. I was just thinking this deserve a re-release.

[LakiSoft]

The Watchtower, on 18 December 2021 - 03:24 PM, said:

Played Divadlo.... wow, this map could have been really really good without those annoying moments that intentionally made the map almost unplayabe.

At the start, you have to find a secret to move through the laser tripbomb. You also have to find another secret in the exact same area, if you don't want to fight a commander with only pistol around. Then you have to kill a babe to get a keycard (I guess lots of people don't kill babes, I usually do, but not always). Then you have to find an almost invisible crack in the bathroom to enter a really cramped underwater segment, where sharks and octabrains are hovering through the ceiling. Then you have to fight a battlelord that is totally unfit for the location. Then you are literally trolled to get the red keycard (if you actually find it and don't travel outside the building to get completely distracted), and of course, atomic health (which alone can't save you) is hidden. Then going backwards, you can either cheat the puzzle with the blocked entry, or have to find a secret switch to move to the intended area (which is actually very clever, just not executed well). And finally, you have to use a blue palette multiswitch you can't use properly during the end.

And all of these unnecessary shit in a really good looking level. I was just thinking this deserve a re-release.

Hey Watchtower, thanks for this post. I finally know what i am supposed to do in Divadlo.map.

[ck3D]

Merlijn, on 17 December 2021 - 04:03 AM, said:

Hasit

I tried this one first since ck3D recommended it, probably not a good idea because the gameplay was extremely frustrating to me.
The scarcity of ammo and supplies was annoying, you basically have to be lucky for one of the pig cops to drop a shotgun or else the first part is nearly unplayable.
The opening is a cool idea in concept, but mostly really annoying in execution. Too cramped, it's impossible to avoid damage, not enough items to heal you up afterwards.
In short the first minutes of the map already put me in a bad mood and it didn't get much better afterwards.
It also doesn't help that you need to traverse the opening section 2 more times, which inevitably drains even more health from you.

I'll save you all from more ramblings and will say that the map looks really good, very neat design and some original locations. And a lot of the puzzles are at least good in theory.
Plus calling the fire department was a cool touch! Overall I'd recommend to play some of the other maps first, so you're at least a bit aware of the BS that this author will occassionally
throw at you.

Haha yeah that Pigcop heavy start is brutal, I always really liked that super challenging intro though, when you're mentally prepared for what you're just about to get yourself into is when it starts feeling super satisfying to beat. I do enjoy it sometimes when the player actually has to carefully watch for their ammo and health and the game actually becomes kinda hard but obviously this is an instance of straight up discomfort. I wonder how much the author really did that on purpose, it may be a noobie mistake and/or lack of testing as I know some of my earliest maps started exactly like that too (bunch of hitscanners, scarcity of items and so a certain extra leeway than what's usually tolerated for things to go wrong, as opposed to gameplay mechanics that consistently make sure you're safe). So that start is actually a high point for me complete with that execution, I find it to be pretty fresh but it definitely could have been designed in a fairer way and also, IIRC what follows that section in terms of navigation and playability is nothing but different instances of frustrating in succession so I can definitely see why the map would leave a bad taste in one's mouth. But if you do give it the chance, it's one with surprisingly good replay value. The first time around you learn its rules in all the hard ways but then, once they've registered, it becomes a lot more acceptable.

Petrin name always made me laugh because in French, being in the "pétrin" means being neck deep in shit, so it's funny how even the eponymous map may mean trouble. And I remember trying to play Divaldo maybe not once, but twice or perhaps thrice and never finding my way out of the first couple of hallways IIRC, I must have checked in Mapster to no avail even, that was forever ago though.

[Aleks]

Played a bunch more maps, including the dreaded Divadlo...

Metro

As The Watchtower mentioned, this one seems to be based on real life location once again, and it does that really well. It's a train/underground level, the gimmick was of course nice in original Duke 3D, but these levels do get kind of repetitive. Here the train travels take quite a bit between station to station, also the tunnels are pitch black, so it's pretty difficult to navigate (although there's some nice sightseeing along the way, as the metro goes underwater for a part and at one of the stations, there's some nice landscaping with waterfall and a bridge. The gameplay seems more balanced than other maps from these guys (besides the first area, which is obviously quite challenging due to lack of ammo - I managed to get the enforcer eaten by protozoid hatching from an egg, which helped quite nicely in that initial encounter). Each of the 3 stations have nice, distinctive texturing, also quite original, but I can imagine this looking a lot like quite a few European metro systems I have been to, which is neat. Towards the end, there's some puzzles involving getting shrunk, but they are presented in a very clear and readable way, so it shouldn't be a problem for anyone to finish them. Overall, this map might also feel a bit obscure at times, but I like that kinds of maps which sometimes make me think and it didn't feel unfair at all. Definitely worth recommending.


Divadlo

"Divadlo" apparently means "theatre" in Czech, but the map, despite indeed taking place in a theatre, also brought to my mind a similar Polish word "dziwadło", which means "freak". The design is great and there's a lot of cool little technical details in this one, however the map is cryptic and obscure even for Cerovsky standards. It also takes a while before finding a decent gun at the beginning, so I was stuck with just pistol for about 20 first enemies (there's a secret around the beginning that contains a chaingun, which I didn't find until much later...). There was a seemingly cool puzzle where you could switch the sceneries around the theatre scene, then if you set a correct one, you could use it to travel from a bridge into a window - unfortunately it turned out it was pointless, as there was nothing to be found there and it wasted a couple of minutes trying to get it right. Finding the first keycard was also quite a chore, I started killing the hookers, and as The Watchtower mentioned, apparently it was a good idea because the keycard was respawned from one of them. The next keycards weren't any easier to come by: the next one required finding a barely visible crack on a wall, and the last one required pressing a small invisible switch in a room with a dead end, which then would explode the whole room with you unless you made a really swift getaway. There's also one secret place ||in the lobby|| that requires you to jump on a monster to access, I ended up luring a pig cop from behind the red key door to get there, which was actually easier than it may sound. Finally, at the very end there was an admittably clever, but extremely frustrating, puzzle with hitting multiswitches and watching out not to be squished. At this point, it was really a bit too much. The gameplay, as usually, was challenging at the beginning before stacking up a bit on guns and ammo, then a lot easier - still some nasty battlelords in tight spaces were quite entertaining. The design was the best part - the theatre looked especially good, loved the balconies and the overall complex layout of the place (I assume it's once again based on a real life location). To be honest, I really had high hopes for this one looking at the screens and the puzzles did seem enjoyable for a bit, but then it turned out to be too confusing even for my liking.

Boyard

This is essentially a small puzzle map, unfortunately not a very good one at it IMO, to be honest. The goal is to find the clues to the password, which then has to be pressed down on an A-Z 25 button combination. Needless to say, the password is

Spoiler

same as the map name, BOYARD

We have to proceed to a bunch of rooms, each one opening another one and some of them containing some kinds of clues (most usually just the large letter hidden somewhere as part of the password). There is one math puzzle which has a primary school grade error for some reason, I had to check out the solution to that in Mapster

Spoiler

it's 246

then only after this I was able to "reverse-engineer" under what circumstances this equation could give that kind of result There's also some instructions handed to us in Czech, which isn't too clever idea IMO. The map also uses Penthouse art, but seems this is only for 1 graphic of a naked woman towards the end, so playing without this art won't make you miss much. Some of the concepts for puzzles/progression are kinda neat, but overall the map is very cryptic and too random to be enjoyed for what it is. The design is also a bit lazy, besides the initial boat ride and entrance/courtyard maybe.

[Merlijn]

ck3D, on 19 December 2021 - 02:10 AM, said:

Haha yeah that Pigcop heavy start is brutal, I always really liked that super challenging intro though, when you're mentally prepared for what you're just about to get yourself into is when it starts feeling super satisfying to beat. I do enjoy it sometimes when the player actually has to carefully watch for their ammo and health and the game actually becomes kinda hard but obviously this is an instance of straight up discomfort. I wonder how much the author really did that on purpose, it may be a noobie mistake and/or lack of testing as I know some of my earliest maps started exactly like that too (bunch of hitscanners, scarcity of items and so a certain extra leeway than what's usually tolerated for things to go wrong, as opposed to gameplay mechanics that consistently make sure you're safe). So that start is actually a high point for me complete with that execution, I find it to be pretty fresh but it definitely could have been designed in a fairer way and also, IIRC what follows that section in terms of navigation and playability is nothing but different instances of frustrating in succession so I can definitely see why the map would leave a bad taste in one's mouth. But if you do give it the chance, it's one with surprisingly good replay value. The first time around you learn its rules in all the hard ways but then, once they've registered, it becomes a lot more acceptable.

Petrin name always made me laugh because in French, being in the "pétrin" means being neck deep in shit, so it's funny how even the eponymous map may mean trouble. And I remember trying to play Divaldo maybe not once, but twice or perhaps thrice and never finding my way out of the first couple of hallways IIRC, I must have checked in Mapster to no avail even, that was forever ago though.

I see where you're coming from, and I know there's a market for unreasonably difficult gameplay (just look at how crazy custom Mario levels can get!).
But personally I do not enjoy having to fight my way through multiple enforcers and pig cops with only a pistol. These authors seem to really like that, they also like hiding essential weapons in secret areas for some reason. It's really not my cup of tea, but perhaps these maps were made from a similar mindset as the aforementioned Mario levels.

But speaking of Hasit, you must admit the ending is ridicilous. I'd argue even the infamous Supa had a better ending.

Spoiler

throwing the battlelord boss at the player in a tiny room with not enough rockets to properly kill it, just why? But then you can easily cheese it by simply moving back into the supermarket, as the battlelord doesn't fit through the door and becomes a sitting duck. I wonder if these maps got playtested at all...

I also played through the Lost highway episode, and that one is a blast for the most part! While it also starts out with scarce ammo and resources (a running theme with these 2 authors), at least the episode never takes away your guns at any point. So once the essentials are aquired you don't have to worry about it for the rest of the episode.The maps are mostly failry short and well designed, plus the highway theme is really well presented. There's a real sense of travelling from place to place, as you hitch rides from a truck, a bus etc. It features locations you would expect in a highway themed episode, like a motel, a factory and a gas station. And all maps are well connected to each other. There's also a big dam level in there, which still looks quite impressive today (and this was made in 1999!). The ending is a bit of a let down, but overall this episode holds up quite well!

[NNC]

Boyard is based on a lousy TV show called Fort Boyard. It was a thing here in Hungary back in the early 2000s.

[ck3D]

Merlijn, on 19 December 2021 - 05:20 AM, said:

I see where you're coming from, and I know there's a market for unreasonably difficult gameplay (just look at how crazy custom Mario levels can get!).
But personally I do not enjoy having to fight my way through multiple enforcers and pig cops with only a pistol. These authors seem to really like that, they also like hiding essential weapons in secret areas for some reason. It's really not my cup of tea, but perhaps these maps were made from a similar mindset as the aforementioned Mario levels.

But speaking of Hasit, you must admit the ending is ridicilous. I'd argue even the infamous Supa had a better ending.

Honestly I had forgotten the ending was so mean but just in my post earlier I was saying the whole supermarket section as a whole may have been a cool nifty little extra but really wasn't needed in my opinion, would have been cool to end the map earlier than that, and the last door just took you to a Nukebutton - sometimes less is more (usually when 'more' is only thrown in just because you can, but that doesn't mean you should). Would have made it a more simple and digestible level.

The Kaizo Duke comparison is a good one, I wouldn't say it's exactly as unfair but I guess the player's levels of anxiety are bound to raise just as high (which will be hit or miss, think mass audience of all kinds of players vs. niche audience of speedrunners just with adjusted balance), still not as nerve wrecking as stuff requiring frame perfect tricks like Glitch City in my opinion (really that level is the one true 'Duke's Nightmare', although beautifully designed). Funnily enough, in my last post I was close to, but refrained from making a comparison with Cuphead which is a tad easier than Kaizo Mario and yet harder than this kind of awkward gameplay in my opinion.

I'm really just shooting the shit by the way, not trying to defend that gameplay practice altogether. Like I was saying, one of my earliest released maps has a very comparable start (a school map from 2002 I think, I was a kid when I made it), that was mostly due to lack of testing but also because I mostly grew up on NES video games or even some PC games with 'tight' gameplay (sometimes flawed on purpose to ensure 'replayability') and part of me subconsciously gives in to the Stockholm syndrome sometimes, I used to really hate that particular map start but in retrospect I have developed some kind of love-hate relationship with it. Also, really sitting on your maps testing them and making sure they're at the very least traversable before you release them is something one learns with time and experience (I used to completely disregard that part of the process for instance, which was always a huge mistake), so I really wouldn't be surprised if maybe half the maps out there online were really never thoroughly tested (but you can tell when one has, usually) and that were indeed the case here. What's hilarious is I've seen YouTube comments along the likes of 'this map must have been beta-tested to shit, the item to monster ratio and placement are perfect' on some old levels of mine I know were never beta-tested at all - just drop the stuff in there and go. The eye of the beholder, etc.