[TheMuseumCurator]

If you could time travel & talk to Mr. Miller or Mr. Broussard circa late 2002? What would you say to them? I think Duke 3D was an amazing game with an interesting development cycle but it set a really bad precedent. It's okay to fuck around for 2... almost 3 years when that was considered "a really long time" to make a game in the 90's! Constantly change your mind & reiterate on content that is already done & working in game rather than finish what isn't done or try to push towards a finished product in that style. iD Software could've finished up LameDuke & shipped it within a month or two in '94/'95! (If you wanted your finished game to basically look & play like that... George never knew what he wanted!)

The difference was that Duke 3D eventually did come out & was a huge success. That investment of time & money ended up being justified & that's why I think Scott Miller kept hoping it would be "next summer" that Forever would finally reach the finish line. However, I maintain that even back then it was a highly wasteful & irresponsible way to create a computer game. If George could've scrapped the Build Engine version & redone it in Quake 1?! He would've. Given that Allen Blum III & Todd Replogle basically created Duke on their own for Apogee? I don't even understand why George had such a huge stake in it?! I was recently surprised to learn Tom Hall, also of iD Software fame did some "creative" on Duke II.

Like what even were George's qualifications to be Project Leader on Forever?! I honestly don't even know what he specifically did on 3D. Other than touch up some Richard Gray (Levelord) maps that were already started for Episode 4 & apparently played the game with only keyboard...It just blows my mind one of the greatest software developers ever (Apogee/3D Realms) threw away a game that would've made an impact at the time to simply redo the graphics over & over again. DNF 2002 apparently had more in common with Deus Ex, but the interviewing on a talk show / signing "Why I'm So Great" for a fan was already in place back then.

I also didn't care for the era 2003/2004-ish screenshots where suddenly the game seemed to not even feature Las Vegas or the Hoover Dam at all. It was all on a space station that looked oddly like a United Aerospace Armed Forces facility on Mars! Do you think George saw the initial Doom 3 E3 presentation or what?! Simply to compete with that game's graphics rather than get a finished product out earlier that would kick Half-Life 1's ass!!! I think that his goal all along even though he just seemed to like getting paid for playing with Beta's he never intended to release to the public. Like if I could time travel & be a "Beta Tester" or even be the guy sweeping the floors & see all the insane, wasteful over-iterations that George blew his time on? Although traveling back to the past & trying to reason with 3D Realms staff members would be an equally idiotic & wasteful use of the very impressive tech that "Duke Nukum 1" thought would be standard issue by the "near future" of 1997.

[DisgustedGrunt]

I would show Scott Miller the results of leaving Broussard run wild. If that doesn't change history nothing will.

[Ninety-Six]

Lazy Dog, on 07 August 2021 - 10:53 AM, said:

I would show Scott Miller the results of leaving Broussard run wild. If that doesn't change history nothing will.

Pretty much. Introduce the team to the difference between a creative director and a producer.

[OpenMaw]

"You lose everything." Would be the first place to start. Because they did. We did. Really, everyone involved lost. 3D Realms should have outlasted id Software as an independent developer, and I think Scott Miller's "We didn't have enough people" was a bullshit excuse when he gave that interview. That clearly was not the issue at 3D Realms during that time. They needed someone in there to act like a focusing array to get the game done. Just that simple Get the paranoia an insecurity and feature creep locked down.

[Jimmy]

You guys don't get it yet. DNF was never intended to be finished. It was a way to make money while jerking off.

[Forge]

Jimmy, on 16 August 2021 - 10:15 PM, said:

You guys don't get it yet. DNF was never intended to be finished. It was a way to make money while jerking off.

if by 'jerking off' you mean an addiction to cheese burgers and gambling, then I agree

[Jimmy]

It can mean whatever you want it to mean. DNF was basically a way to get free money for fifteen years.

[Aristotle Gumball]

Like Star Citizen.

[Forge]

Jimmy, on 17 August 2021 - 10:34 AM, said:

It can mean whatever you want it to mean. DNF was basically a way to get free money for fifteen years.

longer
george is still doing the world poker tournament tour and stuffing food into his face

the grift paid well

[AlektorophobiA]

George is a trend-chasing hack who got lucky with Duke 3D.

[NNC]

Without Blum and Replogle, Duke 3D would have been Legends of the seven paladins tier game.

[OpenMaw]

Again, I ask, what role did Greg Malone play? He's listed as the game director. Surely his influence on Duke 3D was important... No? I never hear his name dropped.

[Aleks]

The Watchtower, on 21 August 2021 - 06:53 AM, said:

Without Blum and Replogle, Duke 3D would have been Legends of the seven paladins tier game.

I wouldn't say just these 2 guys were particularly the most critical. Music in DN3D is something on another level, then there's also art - which I think doesn't get enough praise. Duke's textures and the style they are in - balanced between realism and comic-book look - are IMO one of the crucial elements of its success. The art direction is so much better than SW, Blood or Redneck. I even prefer that look to Ion Fury's graphical style.

[NNC]

Aleks, on 22 August 2021 - 03:33 AM, said:

I wouldn't say just these 2 guys were particularly the most critical. Music in DN3D is something on another level, then there's also art - which I think doesn't get enough praise. Duke's textures and the style they are in - balanced between realism and comic-book look - are IMO one of the crucial elements of its success. The art direction is so much better than SW, Blood or Redneck. I even prefer that look to Ion Fury's graphical style.

I ignored the music part. Of course both Jackson and Prince did marvellous jobs with the music. Art was partly made by Blum/Replogle too, AFAIK, but Chuck Jones and others did a good job as well on it.

[ck3D]

The Watchtower, on 22 August 2021 - 01:07 PM, said:

I ignored the music part. Of course both Jackson and Prince did marvellous jobs with the music. Art was partly made by Blum/Replogle too, AFAIK, but Chuck Jones and others did a good job as well on it.

Honestly Duke 3D art is so fascinating (especially most wall textures and decorations), the accurate authorship of this or that piece was always a big question in the back of my head. The monsters and whatnot I personally don't really care for, but a list of who exactly was behind certain other tiles, especially the ones that reinterpret real-life elements into something more psychedelic or even go full abstract I think I would love, even though highly unlikely to ever exist. I always felt like the people in charge of those designs would have made (a) great comic book artist(s) and it's tempting to feel like learning more about their own respective universes.

[NNC]

ck3D, on 26 August 2021 - 02:13 AM, said:

Honestly Duke 3D art is so fascinating (especially most wall textures and decorations), the accurate authorship of this or that piece was always a big question in the back of my head. The monsters and whatnot I personally don't really care for, but a list of who exactly was behind certain other tiles, especially the ones that reinterpret real-life elements into something more psychedelic or even go full abstract I think I would love, even though highly unlikely to ever exist. I always felt like the people in charge of those designs would have made (a) great comic book artist(s) and it's tempting to feel like learning more about their own respective universes.

I'm not sure we weill ever learn the details. Hornback, Storey, and the two Jones guys (Dirk and Chuck) worked a lot on the art. But Jimmy might know this better.

[Kristian Joensen]

As it happens Dirk and Chuck Jones are both working on some unnanounced FPS by 3DR and Slipgate. While Chuck Jones is also working on Graven.

[Jimmy]

I don't know too much more than the average guy but one uncommon piece of knowledge is that more textures than you might think were 3D modeled instead of photographically sourced or drawn.

[Ninety-Six]

Jimmy, on 27 August 2021 - 11:50 AM, said:

I don't know too much more than the average guy but one uncommon piece of knowledge is that more textures than you might think were 3D modeled instead of photographically sourced or drawn.

Any ideas as to what some of them were?

[NNC]

Jimmy, on 27 August 2021 - 11:50 AM, said:

I don't know too much more than the average guy but one uncommon piece of knowledge is that more textures than you might think were 3D modeled instead of photographically sourced or drawn.

Texture means wall textures as well? Those are hard to imagine as 3D modeled.

[Aleks]

Jimmy, on 27 August 2021 - 11:50 AM, said:

I don't know too much more than the average guy but one uncommon piece of knowledge is that more textures than you might think were 3D modeled instead of photographically sourced or drawn.

3D modeled, in 1995? I imagine the programs for that weren't so advanced, would actually rather think they would mold/sculpt them, then take photos (e.g. to get the shadows work well).

Quote

Texture means wall textures as well? Those are hard to imagine as 3D modeled.

I can imagine the more "3D" looking wall textures, i.e. with parts that are made to look like they stick out and leave shadow, would benefit from that technique.

[OpenMaw]

They did all the monsters that way. The tech was advanced enough to create a wall and put detail on it. Even modeling a cylinder for a tube, putting in some divets/bevels and using it as a PIECE of a texture is entirely possible.

Shit this is how a lot of high detail walls are done now, where you bake down a hi-poly greeblie onto a flat plane so you can have color/bump/normal/spec/AO etc.

[TheMuseumCurator]

I'm glad my ramblings provoked some kind of discussion! Especially bringing up really cool things that I never considered before!!! OpenMaw is right! Who the fuck is Greg Malone?! What exactly did he do / contribute to the project? My initial argument was that LameDuke was pretty directionless even in '94 & just lucked out into finding a style that took off. Why did George leapfrog over him & Allen Blum III / Todd Replogle into being the "MAIN GUY BEHIND DUKE NUKEM" even though he clearly wasn't?!

I think the other issue is that John Romero and/or Tom Hall have done multiple seminars tearing down the creation of Doom 1 in recent years, month by month. We know EXACTLY when they introduced flying enemies for the first time. We even know EXACTLY when the "hit scanner" green energy lost souls became the "head on collision" fiery lost souls. That kind of candid talk about what happened during each phase of development has never happened from 3D Realms. EVER. We don't know precisely when the Enforcers stopped using the abandoned flame weapons & changed to using a version of the Chaingun Cannon. Hell, we don't even know EXACTLY when the single barrel Plasma Cannon became The Ripper! It would be revelation on Duke 3D timeline alone, even if you don't care about anything that happened with Forever's multiple re-writes. Just an admission the basic Assault Troopers went through at least 4 major revisions would be nice!

Another thing I've considered since then? A lot of people claim George was jerking off with other people's money & in a sense he was...2K Games, Infogrammes, GT Entertainment, Take-Two, but it was also HIS money. George couldn't exactly be sacked / replaced / fired / made redundant / kicked downstairs / given a more creative consultant type role because he OWNED half of Apogee / 3D Realms at that time. Scott Miller was the guy who would've needed to reign in him as his partner. I think the "bigger team" shit fell on deaf ears because George completely lost touch by the later-2000's. He thought it was still okay to re-do & re-draw & re-think things that were already supposed to be "done" over & over & over, without a time limit, instead of pushing towards a finished product or considered what "isn't done yet" because that style of haphazard leadership eventually gave us an all-time classic: Duke Nukem 3D.

That's another thing. George Broussard has essentially "run away" from the entire situation since 2009. The Kim Justice YouTube video on "The Agony & The Ecstasy" opines that it might just be too difficult for him to even try to reconcile with it. George deep down knows that he fucked up on some level. I don't hate the man, I actually see much of myself in him! I've delayed books I've written way past the point where others think they're mostly finished & should come out because I"m not 100% happy with them. Ultimately I don't end up changing much, it's just a process of letting go & letting people see it.

George was never good at that... As with my initial post? Instead of time traveling to "save" Duke Forever in 2002? I could time travel to 1996 & "sabotage" Duke 3D just as easily. "Scrap the entire Build Engine of the game, George! You took too long! It looks more like the best version of a game trying to out-do Doom rather than a competitor to the top shelf graphics of Quake. Instead of existing in a very impressive middle level of tech that most PC's can run reasonably well? I'll give you the source code to ID's Quake engine for free. You want bleeding edge tech, right?! (Tech that takes at least 2 years to learn & becomes obsolete by the time you've mastered it). Fuck that fact the game is nearly done in this format! Start the project over in this engine!"

George fell for it himself the other 3 major times! 1998 / 2002 / 2006?!

[Hendricks266]

OpenMaw, on 21 August 2021 - 12:57 PM, said:

Again, I ask, what role did Greg Malone play? He's listed as the game director. Surely his influence on Duke 3D was important... No? I never hear his name dropped.

TheMuseumCurator, on 06 September 2021 - 01:42 PM, said:

I'm glad my ramblings provoked some kind of discussion! Especially bringing up really cool things that I never considered before!!! OpenMaw is right! Who the fuck is Greg Malone?! What exactly did he do / contribute to the project? My initial argument was that LameDuke was pretty directionless even in '94 & just lucked out into finding a style that took off. Why did George leapfrog over him & Allen Blum III / Todd Replogle into being the "MAIN GUY BEHIND DUKE NUKEM" even though he clearly wasn't?!

I think the other issue is that John Romero and/or Tom Hall have done multiple seminars tearing down the creation of Doom 1 in recent years, month by month. We know EXACTLY when they introduced flying enemies for the first time. We even know EXACTLY when the "hit scanner" green energy lost souls became the "head on collision" fiery lost souls. That kind of candid talk about what happened during each phase of development has never happened from 3D Realms. EVER. We don't know precisely when the Enforcers stopped using the abandoned flame weapons & changed to using a version of the Chaingun Cannon. Hell, we don't even know EXACTLY when the single barrel Plasma Cannon became The Ripper! It would be revelation on Duke 3D timeline alone, even if you don't care about anything that happened with Forever's multiple re-writes. Just an admission the basic Assault Troopers went through at least 4 major revisions would be nice!

gamesTM Retro Interview: Stephen A. Hornback - 11 Oct 2013 - https://web.archive.org/web/20131014210349/ https://www.gamestm.co.uk/features/retro-interview-stephen-a-hornback/

Quote

Many gamers see Duke Nukem 3D as the pinnacle of the series. Give us an impression of the attitude and feeling inside 3D Realms at the time.

With Duke 3D, everything seemed to go right. Apogee/3D Realms had hired a good director. I was highly motivated as I was told at the beginning of the project that I was to receive a 3 per cent royalty. So, yes, we had an extremely talented group of individuals, everyone was working very hard, and we were trying to make the game as fun as possible.

But after the project was completed, things changed. I was told my royalty would not be 3%, but only 1%. Not only was it a slap in the face, but to me that was the same as them stealing $100,000.00 – 200,000.00 right out of my pocket. Greg Malone left the company, Several talented programmers, an artist, and a level designer left to start Ritual Entertainment. Chuck Jones left to go work for Valve because he was unhappy with the way he was being treated. He wasn’t even invited to go to E3 when Duke 3D was finished, and I remember how bad he felt about being left out of that. So a lot of wonderful talent left then, and 3D Realms would never be the same.

[TheMuseumCurator]

Hendricks266, on 06 September 2021 - 02:32 PM, said:

gamesTM Retro Interview: Stephen A. Hornback - 11 Oct 2013 - https://web.archive.org/web/20131014210349/ https://www.gamestm.co.uk/features/retro-interview-stephen-a-hornback/

You'd be the one to know above all of us. I guess in simpler language? A bunch of staff members knew it was a bullshit, wasteful way to create a computer game that despite being a success, it took longer than it should've & ultimately took their talents elsewhere.

[OpenMaw]

I don't know if that's the right take away.

In those days, pre-Quake, you could get away with 5-12 people just making a game, farting around in the middle, and then crunch time after a matter of months. Even the guys at id hated working with the Quake engine at the time because the level of technical knowledge required to work with polygons is a step up from sprites and 2.5D environments where your limited in certain respects, which allows you to basically focus on layout and refining the gameplay. Listening to Romero talk about level design for Quake, it just sounds like a nightmare. Peolple used to bitch and complain about how difficult Worldcraft/Hammer could be to work with, but having to try and work in a fully 3D world with a tool that was literally just 2D graphing grids... UGH.

The experimentation is what gave Duke3D a lot of the great gameplay ideas it has, and even just some of the excentricities. Like the footsteps that come from water, sewage, poop, blood. That's just one of those things where we have the player spawning footsteps for one thing, and then we tie it into a bunch of other things with a palette swap and boom, you've suddenly got this smirk-inducing novelty that "just happens." That's one of the core elements that goes into the "lightning in a bottle" that is Duke. All of the little elements mix well together and give the game the life and presentation tha set it apart from Quake. Personality, attitude, activity. Lots of activity. Not just interactivity. Things are happening. When you compare that to Doom or to Quake you don't see nearly as much. Things are more streamlined, utilitarian.

Yes, the messiness of the creative process that gave us Duke3D in part lead to DNF going down the shitter, but I don't think that alone would have done it in. Someone, somewhere, was pushing Duke3D to a finish line. Looking at Lameduke, the 1995 build, the .99 beta, and then the shareware, you can see a very distinct line of evolution where things are being experimented with, and then cleaved and cleaned. Levels are cut down and refined for performance, but also more importantly for gameplay. Going through Lameduke is incredibly interesting from a historical perspective, but the scope of a lot of those levels is so vast and maze-like that I don't think they would have been nearly as fun as the finished game had they not been cut down and refined.

[Kralex]

But what about Shadow Warrior? That started development around 93/94 right? And they fucked around just as much with that, but after Duke 3D was a hit someone had the foresight to push it to the finish line. I wonder who that was?

[OpenMaw]

Between 93 and 99 There were so many projects that were just variations on experimentation. Whether it's SW, Blood, Duke, or Prey.

The odd thing is as you get close to 2000, there did seem to be someone pushing the projects forward. l Every year that we saw Prey being demonstrated it seemed to be making great strides towards a complete game.

Somewhere in there we did lose someone vital to the chain. Someone who was telling people no, and setting some kind of milestone sor deadlines to get things done.

[Jimmy]

Aleks, on 28 August 2021 - 12:07 PM, said:

3D modeled, in 1995? I imagine the programs for that weren't so advanced, would actually rather think they would mold/sculpt them, then take photos (e.g. to get the shadows work well).

Programs for that were actually incredibly advanced. However computing/graphics power for the average PC player wasn't strong enough to render entire games in actual 3D until Quake changed the market. There are renders out there in the public sphere of some of the things modeled for Duke3D and Shadow Warrior and they are quite detailed. 3D modeling out a floor texture is quite trivial in comparison to the detailed character models that were created at the time.

Kralex, on 11 September 2021 - 06:32 AM, said:

But what about Shadow Warrior? That started development around 93/94 right? And they fucked around just as much with that, but after Duke 3D was a hit someone had the foresight to push it to the finish line. I wonder who that was?

George was responsible for a lot of the last minute decisions that made the game more like Duke3D, and pushed it out the door.

[Altered Reality]

TheMuseumCurator, on 07 August 2021 - 08:38 AM, said:

If you could time travel & talk to Mr. Miller or Mr. Broussard circa late 2002?

It would be too late. DNF became George's personal playground, as opposed to a quick project to keep gamers occupied until the release of Prey, in mid-1998 when 3DRealms ditched all they did with the Quake2 engine and restarted development with the Unreal engine. If you read George's interviews at https://duke4ever.al...g/textdocs.html you can feel the abrupt change of tone in his answers, before and after the switch to Unreal.