[brullov]

I must say that I have never been to the USA, so I can judge the view of E1L1 only by films, videos, photos, etc. Personally, Hollywood Holocaust looks more like NY for me: tall buildings, back alleys, night city landscape and general noir atmosphere which is more suitable to NY. Of course, it's all about media propaganda — "NY is rainy and moody, LA is sunny and chill". Anyway...

Are the first 2 levels are a mix of these two cities? Or maybe I am totally wrong and HH looks pretty much like real LA streets?

[Danukem]

LA has tall buildings as well, just not as tall as some of the ones in NY. As a native of California, I do feel that the graffiti fits 90s LA well. I have not been to NY but since its an older city I would expect the streets to be narrower and more packed with stuff. LA on the other hand is notoriously sprawling. So I think the first two levels probably do fit LA better, although of course they are pretty primitive representations even by Build standards.

[Fox]

Hollywood Holocaust does looks like real LA

The city in the background is scanned from a real photo of LA

[Jimmy]

Duke Nukem 3D is also heavily inspired by the dystopian sci-fi films of the 1980s, it's supposed to be a more run down, dilapidated form of L.A. The manual kind of hints at that.

[Ninety-Six]

Fox, on 24 March 2021 - 04:00 PM, said:

The city in the background is scanned from a real photo of LA

Have we ever seen the photo in question like we did the palm trees? I'd really love to see the original to compare if so. I never would have guessed that was a scanned image since it looks so stylized.

[NNC]

Episode 3 and some episode 4 city levels (particularly Raw Meat, Bank Roll, Movie Set, Fahrenheit, Shop-n-Bag, Pigsty, XXX Stacy) feel like they were done after the Universal Backlot.

[ck3D]

brullov, on 24 March 2021 - 02:46 PM, said:

I must say that I have never been to the USA, so I can judge the view of E1L1 only by films, videos, photos, etc. Personally, Hollywood Holocaust looks more like NY for me: tall buildings, back alleys, night city landscape and general noir atmosphere which is more suitable to NY. Of course, it's all about media propaganda — "NY is rainy and moody, LA is sunny and chill". Anyway...

Are the first 2 levels are a mix of these two cities? Or maybe I am totally wrong and HH looks pretty much like real LA streets?

That's not a weird thing to ponder, I used to sort of feel the same when I was younger. Now I've stayed in both NYC and LA for extended periods of time and would say, Jimmy has the right answer. That map doesn't look like the typical LA postcard because it's set at nighttime and bears little color but greys and browns (when most of LA is rather colorful, but then again so can be NYC), but if you forget about it representing a remarkable part of the city (which would be closer to how LameDuke city maps felt, in fact) and instead assume it's a random little back alley in some sketchy district even the police would avoid, and throw in the Blade Runner vibes to match the game's dark tone then it does kind of work. I feel like the architecture and most especially the textures (not even talking about the sky) would be different from what we got, had that map been meant to represent something on the East Coast. The weather conditions year round not being the same isn't a gimmick and so surfaces differ quite a bit when it comes to types and wear.

[brullov]

Thank you for the info guys. Does the architecture of LA and NY differ a lot? I mean not only the downtown architecture.

To me, they look kinda identical, but again, I may be wrong. E.g. could you find such a back alley in LA?

[ck3D]

^ In some districts perhaps. A lot of the typical 'NYC imagery' that gets exported as such is in fact more generally American, if you're thinking of features such as emergency exits, balconies, dumpsters and whatnot then those are rather universal and nothing typically East Coast. The only thing really hinting at NYC in that picture is the bricks and general style of the facade and even then I wouldn't say that's always a trustworthy indicator, in some streets sometimes one building will just look off. I'd say East Coast specificities reside more in the little things, for a random example some neighborhoods in NYC have a shit ton of cellar doors protruding out of most every building, or a lot of diamond plate storefronts and generally look weathered down. LA is a different type of weathered down, being exposed to a different climate, the kind of aging you get there on materials is more of the dry kind that's been exposed to the sun for too long vs. the brutal kind that's constantly being stormed through by all four elements. And that's also not considering how both cities are big and comprise districts that sometimes look nothing alike.

Side note but my personal experience was discovering California first and then NY a bit later. At that point I had heard of all the clichés according to which the East Coast was supposedly more rugged whereas the West Coast was a lot nicer, but that really didn't turn out to be the case. Some areas in downtown SF look like how the average Joe would naively picture NYC just cranked up to eleven; also this is not the nineties anymore and a lot of NY (and California) has been gentrified since, making for more apparent common ground.

[DNSKILL5]

LA and NYC differ significantly. They're on opposite sides of the country and their climate, culture, etc. differs from each other. East coast and West coast USA are almost like visiting two different countries in terms of what it feels like to be at either of these cities. Their buildings and most certainly the roads are distinctively different in style between the two cities as well, and skyscrapers are not exclusive to these two cities (most down town cities all over the country have their own little city area that has skyscrapers and true city-life, usually the crime and politics follow as well). NYC is also older and surrounded by more water. LA is larger than NYC and only some of it is near water. Both cities have similar politics and crime rates, which is where their similarities are most prominent.

I agree with ck3d that had the levels been set in NYC, the level design would've likely looked different because the East Coast is quite different from the West.

A good example of Duke in NY would be in Duke Nukem Zero Hour, but I imagine had they made DN3D set there the levels would've given off an Escape From NY vibe similar to what is seen in a few levels in DNZH.

Also, no offense, but comparing pictures only gets you so far. You've got to truly see these cities for yourself to get the full picture. There may be similarities here and there, but the same could be said about pretty much any US city.

[High Treason]

Aren't there a bunch of movies that try to pass off places in Illinois (presumably Chicago, but probably others too) as NY and LA? I could swear this was borderline common in the 80s. Perhaps I shall try to find them later as the titles just aren't coming to me right now even though I can see the films in my head.

Weirdly Duke 3D being set in LA never really occurs to me that much, it may as well simply be "Bigcity, Somewhere, USA" as I'd wager that, like the pistol, they just went with ideas they thought looked cool and played well above trying to make it particularly accurate.

[brullov]

Could you please tell me the names of the films that inspired the creation of the episode?

By the way, is Los Santos in GTA 5 accurate? Can it be used as a reference? Or maybe it is too modern LA for the 90s Duke 3D city style. I am looking for an accurate reference

[Hendricks266]

Ninety-Six, on 24 March 2021 - 09:56 PM, said:

Have we ever seen the photo in question like we did the palm trees? I'd really love to see the original to compare if so. I never would have guessed that was a scanned image since it looks so stylized.

Yes, I posted it previously.

Hendricks266, on 22 April 2014 - 03:43 AM, said:

In other news, the LA night skybox is a scan from a book or a magazine.

This photo was taken from an observatory I don't remember the name of. You can tell because of the vantage point.

[Ninety-Six]

That is awesome. Much appreciated! I wasn't around back when that original post came up, so I missed it the first time.


That image even explains some of the oddities I've seen in the texture. Why some buildings look merged: they're the same building that maintains a perfect rectangle even at an angle. Or what the cluster of lights at the bottom of the texture is.

This is both fascinating and super cool. Of course it helps that I have a love for nighttime cityscapes.

[X-Vector]

brullov, on 25 March 2021 - 01:02 AM, said:

E.g. could you find such a back alley in LA?

I guess so.

[ck3D]

I had forgotten about that First Interstate bank sign - it can be a bit of a trip. To me, the in-game rendition of that part of that building always looked like the rough outline of what eventually became the Duke Burger logo in The Birth with the big letter D, subconsciously, and I wouldn't be surprised if I weren't the only one to have ever thought that.

[brullov]

X-Vector, on 25 March 2021 - 08:41 AM, said:

I guess so.

As a foreigner, I would say it's NY

@Hendricks266

Thank you for providing this scan, I remember seeing it some time ago here, but it's definitely a treasure for my reference collection.

[Aleks]

For me it was always the other way around - having played Duke when I was like 7-8 and knowing it's Los Angeles, this depiction of LA was forged into my memory for years to come (probably until I played GTA San Andreas with a more sunny vibe Los Santos portraying Los Angeles). Now, after years of playing games and watching movies and TV shows, I believe I get to recognise some of the differences between the styles of each city/part of US that lay a bit deeper than the hues the director goes for - even provided I've never been to USA myself. It's an interesting discussion here nevertheless, and one that I just realised I've never given much though about! And the pictures posted by Herdricks are solid gold.

High Treason, on 25 March 2021 - 06:53 AM, said:

Aren't there a bunch of movies that try to pass off places in Illinois (presumably Chicago, but probably others too) as NY and LA? I could swear this was borderline common in the 80s. Perhaps I shall try to find them later as the titles just aren't coming to me right now even though I can see the films in my head.

From the top of my head, I recall that large portion of "Lucifer", despite taking place in LA, was recorded in Vancouver, and "Suits", taking place in NY, was recorded in Toronto. And that's recent shows, not 80s ones!

[MC84]

High Treason, on 25 March 2021 - 06:53 AM, said:

Aren't there a bunch of movies that try to pass off places in Illinois (presumably Chicago, but probably others too) as NY and LA? I could swear this was borderline common in the 80s. Perhaps I shall try to find them later as the titles just aren't coming to me right now even though I can see the films in my head.

If I'm not mistaken Seinfeld was filmed in LA, but was set in NYC.

[OpenMaw]

brullov, on 25 March 2021 - 01:20 PM, said:

As a foreigner, I would say it's NY

@Hendricks266

Thank you for providing this scan, I remember seeing it some time ago here, but it's definitely a treasure for my reference collection.

New York isn't known for palm trees like Los Angeles and Los Vegas.

Duke Nukem's visual language borrows from a lot of 1980s films. The Terminator is actually a big one. Also Dirty Harry, Die Hard. Duke's primary look for the urban environments is the gritty nasty run down version of LA that was very popular in the 80s.

[duke3d.exe]

Hendricks266, on 25 March 2021 - 08:15 AM, said:

Yes, I posted it previously.


This photo was taken from an observatory I don't remember the name of. You can tell because of the vantage point.

I want to rent an apartment in one of these buildings and play LA Meltdown.

[Fox]

Anther photo from the same angle:

[Ninety-Six]

That looks a lot like the skybox for Hollywood Inferno.

[The Battlelord]

From many movies and perspectives they feels quite similar indeed, but the natives can probably recognize places and show the differences.


Always wondered why the HRP never got such a HD (no blurry) skybox like this, the most close attempt seem to be from Eternity, but the skyscrapers are too short, they looks nice if the player does not jump/fly to find out that the the bottom lead pratically in the middle of nowhere lol.

[NNC]

Ninety-Six, on 27 March 2021 - 04:46 AM, said:

That looks a lot like the skybox for Hollywood Inferno.

I'm wondering what were the origins of the World Tour skyboxes. Some of them look like lazy drawings, practically in all of the european maps.

[Ninety-Six]

The Watchtower, on 27 March 2021 - 06:44 AM, said:

I'm wondering what were the origins of the World Tour skyboxes. Some of them look like lazy drawings, practically in all of the european maps.

A lot of them look like edited photographs to me. HI's doesn't even appear to be an edited photograph and always just looked like a straight-on photo after some bit-crushing.

[OpenMaw]

I was thinking about Duke NUkem Zero Hour today. It takes place in New York during it's "near future" and "post apocalypse" settings. There is a distinct difference between those levels and the city levels of Duke Nukem 3D. Sort of a short-hand translation effect. New York in Zero Hour is very tall buildings, long streets, It gives a very narrow, claustrophobic feeling in some spots, even though it's actually quite sprawling. Even though many textures are seemingly reused from Duke 3D, the nature of the design does somewhat articulate the differences between the two cities.

Just compare Mean Streets to Hollywood Holocaust.

[necroslut]

OpenMaw, on 31 March 2021 - 02:06 PM, said:

I was thinking about Duke NUkem Zero Hour today. It takes place in New York during it's "near future" and "post apocalypse" settings. There is a distinct difference between those levels and the city levels of Duke Nukem 3D. Sort of a short-hand translation effect. New York in Zero Hour is very tall buildings, long streets, It gives a very narrow, claustrophobic feeling in some spots, even though it's actually quite sprawling. Even though many textures are seemingly reused from Duke 3D, the nature of the design does somewhat articulate the differences between the two cities.

Just compare Mean Streets to Hollywood Holocaust.

There's a big difference in map design style between 3DR and Eurocom city maps though, where Duke 3D is mostly interiors with some small street sections and ZH is mostly streets with some smaller interiors.

[OpenMaw]

Granted, but I still think it demonstrates some of the differences between the two cities.