[Galacnor]

Hey guys,

Heres a little bit of a tough nut.

Long story short, I'm looking for some more information regarding a Duke Nukem mod/custom map that was designed around 1996 for COSI of Toledo (for those of you unfamiliar, it was a childrens museum devoted to STEM subjects)

I've managed to track the mod back to the design firm ROTO, based in Dublin OH; but, alas, they hired an outside contractor to design the map for them, they only designed the exhibit around them.

They have informed me that they found the person who designed the mod for them by him including his name and contact information in his custom maps that he was offering online, and contacted him to design a map for them as well.

Unfortunately, they have lost track of what their name was, and no longer have the files on hand themselves.

I'm hoping that the person responsible for the modification may still be around, or at least known, so that the original modded files can be recovered and enjoyed again.

Anyone got any tips on where I should start searching for such an individual?

For those of you interested, the custom map was designed around the premis of finding the source of polution in a lake. Maybe he released the map himself, as well, or a prototype of it, to the public!

The level (if I remember correctly) started off with a video cutscene and then you began your adventure in the bottom of a ship, where you could dive out of the floor to enter the water.
There was also a small cabin to explore, and a water purification plant, and perhaps other areas to explore.

There may have been more than one level; however, being a child, I never made it to the end of the first one, so I can't vouch for what may have come after you beat that one.

Being that this modder was active at the very beginning of the Duke Nukem 3D era, and that he was putting his name and contact information in his mods that he made available online, I believe that there is a really good chance that we can uncover his identity and recover his mod from the depths of time.

fingers crossed!

Alex

[ck3D]

I was waiting before posting to see if anyone on here actually knew about that specific map, but I guess not. My best guess would be to check long-standing Duke 3D map and mod reviewing websites (https://msdn.duke4.net, https://dnr.duke4.net, http://www.scent-88.com, https://www.arrovfnukem.com are the primary ones I can think of), where you can sort public releases by date and maybe some screenshots in the 1996 releases would catch your attention, if not of the map itself then perhaps one will bring back memories of the style it used. Back in 1996, in order to stand out mappers had to have their own rather specific style (well the same is true today, but the output of online releases seems like it was a non-stop chaotic mess at the time, so good releases were especially recognizable); if the author you're looking for was popular, as you said, chances are you might be able to identify them. Chances also are that the contact info in the joined .txt files has expired since 1996 but if their real name is in there, you can probably try an online search from then on.

Good luck! Also the story sounds vaguely familiar, so I might have read about that map before, or maybe it was something else just the practice of hiring mappers back when the game had peak popularity that wasn't uncommon at the time. Would love to hear if you ever end up finding it.

[NNC]

I've seen various Reddit threads about it (some are many years old), probably you were the author in some of them. Was that map an educational level? Did it have enemies, like octabrains, or just water and techbase? As I read, it wasn't a vanilla level, the Duke sprite was changed to a female diver.

[Jimmy]

I don't remember any kind of mod like this. I get the feeling this has never been released. Something like this would have been very unique even up to the 2000s.

[Galacnor]

Hello Gentlemen,

Please forgive me for my slow response. After a few days of not hearing anything back I had assumed that nobody was going to post a response and didn't think to check. I'm glad that I was mistaken.

ck3D, on 14 February 2021 - 09:39 AM, said:

I was waiting before posting to see if anyone on here actually knew about that specific map, but I guess not. My best guess would be to check long-standing Duke 3D map and mod reviewing websites (https://msdn.duke4.net, https://dnr.duke4.net, http://www.scent-88.com, https://www.arrovfnukem.com are the primary ones I can think of), where you can sort public releases by date and maybe some screenshots in the 1996 releases would catch your attention, if not of the map itself then perhaps one will bring back memories of the style it used. Back in 1996, in order to stand out mappers had to have their own rather specific style (well the same is true today, but the output of online releases seems like it was a non-stop chaotic mess at the time, so good releases were especially recognizable); if the author you're looking for was popular, as you said, chances are you might be able to identify them. Chances also are that the contact info in the joined .txt files has expired since 1996 but if their real name is in there, you can probably try an online search from then on.

Good luck! Also the story sounds vaguely familiar, so I might have read about that map before, or maybe it was something else just the practice of hiring mappers back when the game had peak popularity that wasn't uncommon at the time. Would love to hear if you ever end up finding it.

All good ideas. Thank you for your help. I will come back with some new information if I find any!

The Watchtower, on 14 February 2021 - 02:57 PM, said:

I've seen various Reddit threads about it (some are many years old), probably you were the author in some of them. Was that map an educational level? Did it have enemies, like octabrains, or just water and techbase? As I read, it wasn't a vanilla level, the Duke sprite was changed to a female diver.

Believe it or not, only a very recent one, posted only a few weeks ago, is mine. A few people were searching for information on this map for a long time; but, so far, I'm the one whos gotten farthest! Heres my reddit post. COSI Duke Nukem Reddit Post

The map, as far as I remember was only barely classified as "educational", there wasn't really anything about it aside from pollution that truly made it appropriate for where it was displayed. I seem to remember it having some sharks; but, that could be a false memory. I beleive you could also kick or punch with your hands or feet; but, my memory fails me a little there.

You are correct, it was indeed not a vanilla level, and there was definitely a female diver there, you are correct.

Jimmy, on 15 February 2021 - 10:31 AM, said:

I don't remember any kind of mod like this. I get the feeling this has never been released. Something like this would have been very unique even up to the 2000s.

Yes, it seems it was never released by anyone, fingers crossed we find it and recover it!

[Kristian Joensen]

This describes it without any reference to Duke or the Build engine(although some of the comments mention that aspect): https://www.reddit.c...in_cosi_toledo/

Are you sure it is not either A)A standalone TC/game using the Build engine or B)On some other engine with similar graphics to Build?

Edit:

I ask because that Reddit post describes it as an: "old scuba diving game". He uses the word "game" instead of "mod" or "level". It might just be an unprecise choice of word or his memory being bad. But still, it could be helpful.

[Jimmy]

If it was indeed the Build engine, then they just said "game" as a colloquial kind of term.

I feel like this might be something lost to time, unless somebody has it on a hard drive somewhere.

[NNC]

I found this old website with the various areas of the museum, but no info of the game: https://web.archive....rningworlds.htm

Possibly it was a feature in WaterWorks. What was the last time you remember the game there?

[NNC]

Btw. the first modder that came to my mind who might have been involved was Ben Roffelsen. He created the famous Aqua trilogy back in 1996, I'm pretty sure by that time they were among the most popular maps released for free. Also Mike Beaulieu created Bobafett, which was somewhat relatable to the water purifier/diving stuff in the OP.

[Jimmy]

That video claims to be taken in 2003.

[NNC]

Jimmy, on 02 March 2021 - 12:33 PM, said:

That video claims to be taken in 2003.

But then I can't see anything informative in the archived website.

[Galacnor]

Hello again Everybody,

Wonderful to see that this thread is really starting to get some attention.

Let me respond to all of you individually.

Kristian Joensen, on 28 February 2021 - 06:13 AM, said:

This describes it without any reference to Duke or the Build engine(although some of the comments mention that aspect): https://www.reddit.c...in_cosi_toledo/

Are you sure it is not either A)A standalone TC/game using the Build engine or B)On some other engine with similar graphics to Build?

Edit:

I ask because that Reddit post describes it as an: "old scuba diving game". He uses the word "game" instead of "mod" or "level". It might just be an unprecise choice of word or his memory being bad. But still, it could be helpful.

Hello Kristian,

Wonderful to hear from you.

Regarding your question. Yes, it is most certainly a modification of the Duke Nukem 3D game. This is confirmed in an email I have received from the head man over at design firm responsible for hiring the modder who designed it. Please see this screenshot.

Jimmy, on 01 March 2021 - 11:26 PM, said:

If it was indeed the Build engine, then they just said "game" as a colloquial kind of term.

I feel like this might be something lost to time, unless somebody has it on a hard drive somewhere.

Hello again Jimmy.

You are correct, it was indeed a BUILD engine game. Please see the email screenshot provided above.

Yes, I also fear that it is currently lost to time. But, the longer we go without finding it, the greater the chance it will be lost forever.
I'm not willing to believe currently that nobody saved a copy of it somewhere, and I'm still digging, hoping we recover it.
I really think its probable that if we find the original modder, he will have saved a copy of what he designed.

Fingers crossed!

The Watchtower, on 02 March 2021 - 04:03 AM, said:

I found this old website with the various areas of the museum, but no info of the game: https://web.archive....rningworlds.htm

Possibly it was a feature in WaterWorks. What was the last time you remember the game there?

That looks like their original website from the early 2000s. I rememebr that! Wow! Its crazy that the early 2000s are now nearly 20 years behind us.

You are correct that it was a feature in waterworks, within a submarine. Here are a pair of original photos of the exhibit.



I would guess that the last time I saw it personally was around 2004 or 2005. I moved to Columbus Ohio in 2005. I believe it was installed there until COSI Toledo closed, and later reopened as imagination station.

The Watchtower, on 02 March 2021 - 04:57 AM, said:

Btw. the first modder that came to my mind who might have been involved was Ben Roffelsen. He created the famous Aqua trilogy back in 1996, I'm pretty sure by that time they were among the most popular maps released for free. Also Mike Beaulieu created Bobafett, which was somewhat relatable to the water purifier/diving stuff in the OP.

That seems like a really promising place to start. Even if he was not responsible for this mod, its possible that he might remember someone else who could have been. Have any idea how we could get in contact with them?

Jimmy, on 02 March 2021 - 12:33 PM, said:

That video claims to be taken in 2003.

That seems to look about correct. However, it doesn"t seem to do much for us! Too bad!

The Watchtower, on 02 March 2021 - 03:34 PM, said:

But then I can't see anything informative in the archived website.

Agreed, unfortunatley the website provides no new information for us, a shame. But, the search will go on!

Lets see what we continue to uncover.

Regards
Alex

[NNC]

Since you have contact with that guy who created the exhibit, you should try to harass him one more time with sending some names, one of them might ring him a bell, who knows.

This is a still functional old site with 1996-97 maps only: https://solyga.xulin...UKE3D/maps.html

If I read correctly, he was just looking for a 1996 usermapper, which reduces our realistic possibilities greatly. There were very few decent mappers back then, most of the stuff released were quite terrible. I'm pretty sure he didn't send the offer to anyone, only to the people whose work wasn't that awful.

For starters, you should send him the following names:

Ben Roffelsen (creator of the Aqua series)
Dale Metcalfe (friend of Roffelsen, also made some techbase style maps)
Mike Beaulieu (creator of some water themed levels like Bobafett)
Robert Travis (the most prominent and ambitious name from 1996, who also created commercial addons like the Duke Caribbean) - if he is the right answer, we will have a hard time finding him, as we already tried
Aaron Barber (one of the creators of the Gate TC and other Build engine and Quake levels, became a pro at Valve)
Ryan Isenberg (another high profile name from the Gate TC)
and well, the other Gate TC people: Jonathan Cacy, Christa Forest, Matt Harris, Jeff Heath, Demian Holmberg, Paul William Jury, Tyler Matthews, Preston Packard, Shane Paluski, Nick Parde, Cho-Yan Wong, Jim Semkiw, Brady Cox, Neil Munday

We will ask Charlie Wiederhold, he might have some information, he was the co-author with Robert Travis on many Duke Caribbean and Duke it out in Dcl levels.

[Aleks]

I'm not sure The Watchtower's perspective here is correct - now we can judge these early user maps as crappy, but back in the day people didn't have that much specified taste or knew what was good. Back in the day, I'd play anything. Also going specifically for the bigger names, like Travis or BDP guys, doesn't seem like the right path - they were busy creating commercial addons back then mostly. Looking at my map archives, and just mentioning the authors of particularly good and interesting titles or the ones centered around underwater themes from 1996/1997, I'd mention/recommend checking these guys:

• William Reid Morris III (Aquarium World map);
• Daniel Johnson (Atlantis map - there were a lot of maps called Atlantis back then!);
• Brian C. Sasso AKA Mr. Zero (Azneer Building/Azneer13.map, a particularly good map centered around an actual university building and with large underwater section);
• Robert Carter (Beam Me Up Scotty and Warp Ship 255 - great space levels);
• Chris Muir (Highjack, Cruzship and Uptown - all quality levels);
• David J. Nolder AKA Dejer (Death Star map);
• John Mooney (Duke's Day Off map);
• Bud Drakir (Escape from Alcatraz map, particularly good from plethora of Alcatraz.map's of the time);
• Patrick Clemons (Filmwarp series, which used a lot of extra assets);
• Greg Hoyer (awesome G.J. Hoyer map);
• Enric Alvarez (LEM series, which also used lots of extra assets - I know that he's now a professional game developer);
• Dale Clowers (Mars series);
• Andrew Emmons (another Atlantis level - this one was particularly nice IIRC);
• Kevin Sipes AKA Gamerjoe (Watergun map).

Slight chance, but maybe this helps - I'd suggest posting these names to your contact and checking if any of them rings a bell...

[NNC]

I actually forgot to mention Enric Alvarez and Robert Carter, kudos Aleks.

Robert Travis is still extremely suspicious, based on this description: "No defiantly not. It had no dialogue. Also the graphics were much older. Like Doom graphics. I remember there being a kick action with your flippered foot. I remember there being this bathtub? that you could go into and you would fully submerge and be in an underwater environment with sharp tooth fish."

He liked sharks, aquariums (Betaone for example), bathrooms, submarines, and Caribbean had flippered foot.

But of course if you send these names, one might ring a bell.

[NNC]

I managed to get contact with Ben Roffelsen, he replied very quickly. Sadly he isn't the guy we are looking for.

[Jimmy]

If he can remember a name, I can try to track them down too.

[Galacnor]

Aleks, on 04 March 2021 - 03:42 AM, said:

I'm not sure The Watchtower's perspective here is correct - now we can judge these early user maps as crappy, but back in the day people didn't have that much specified taste or knew what was good. Back in the day, I'd play anything. Also going specifically for the bigger names, like Travis or BDP guys, doesn't seem like the right path - they were busy creating commercial addons back then mostly. Looking at my map archives, and just mentioning the authors of particularly good and interesting titles or the ones centered around underwater themes from 1996/1997, I'd mention/recommend checking these guys:

• William Reid Morris III (Aquarium World map);
• Daniel Johnson (Atlantis map - there were a lot of maps called Atlantis back then!);
• Brian C. Sasso AKA Mr. Zero (Azneer Building/Azneer13.map, a particularly good map centered around an actual university building and with large underwater section);
• Robert Carter (Beam Me Up Scotty and Warp Ship 255 - great space levels);
• Chris Muir (Highjack, Cruzship and Uptown - all quality levels);
• David J. Nolder AKA Dejer (Death Star map);
• John Mooney (Duke's Day Off map);
• Bud Drakir (Escape from Alcatraz map, particularly good from plethora of Alcatraz.map's of the time);
• Patrick Clemons (Filmwarp series, which used a lot of extra assets);
• Greg Hoyer (awesome G.J. Hoyer map);
• Enric Alvarez (LEM series, which also used lots of extra assets - I know that he's now a professional game developer);
• Dale Clowers (Mars series);
• Andrew Emmons (another Atlantis level - this one was particularly nice IIRC);
• Kevin Sipes AKA Gamerjoe (Watergun map).

Slight chance, but maybe this helps - I'd suggest posting these names to your contact and checking if any of them rings a bell...

The Watchtower, on 04 March 2021 - 04:34 AM, said:

I actually forgot to mention Enric Alvarez and Robert Carter, kudos Aleks.

Robert Travis is still extremely suspicious, based on this description: "No defiantly not. It had no dialogue. Also the graphics were much older. Like Doom graphics. I remember there being a kick action with your flippered foot. I remember there being this bathtub? that you could go into and you would fully submerge and be in an underwater environment with sharp tooth fish."

He liked sharks, aquariums (Betaone for example), bathrooms, submarines, and Caribbean had flippered foot.

But of course if you send these names, one might ring a bell.

The Watchtower, on 04 March 2021 - 06:33 AM, said:

I managed to get contact with Ben Roffelsen, he replied very quickly. Sadly he isn't the guy we are looking for.

Jimmy, on 04 March 2021 - 06:08 PM, said:

If he can remember a name, I can try to track them down too.

Hello again Everyone,

Seems like you've collected quite a few names here already!

I think the idea to show a list to the owner of the design firm might be a good one.

May I suggest that we try and contact as many of these guys as possible and get their answers ourselves before we show the owner of the firm a list of possible candidates?

Narrowing the list would go a long way to making it more possible for someone to remember a name from so long ago, and with any luck, we may find out from one of these gentlemen who the original modder was, even if it wasn't one of them. At the very least they may have a few more names for us.

With my regards
Alexander

[Kristian Joensen]

Another benefit that contacting modders from back then could be that even if they did not create this mod, they might know who did or they might have some ideas/suggestions of their own as to who can have done so.

[Galacnor]

Hello Everyone,

Any updates so far?

I can also start contacting people; but, have no idea what their contact information is.

Regards
Alex

[NNC]

I think we already mentioned a few names. Go for it.

[Galacnor]

The Watchtower, on 13 March 2021 - 04:44 AM, said:

I think we already mentioned a few names. Go for it.

Jimmy, on 04 March 2021 - 06:08 PM, said:

If he can remember a name, I can try to track them down too.

Aleks, on 04 March 2021 - 03:42 AM, said:

I'm not sure The Watchtower's perspective here is correct - now we can judge these early user maps as crappy, but back in the day people didn't have that much specified taste or knew what was good. Back in the day, I'd play anything. Also going specifically for the bigger names, like Travis or BDP guys, doesn't seem like the right path - they were busy creating commercial addons back then mostly. Looking at my map archives, and just mentioning the authors of particularly good and interesting titles or the ones centered around underwater themes from 1996/1997, I'd mention/recommend checking these guys:

• William Reid Morris III (Aquarium World map);
• Daniel Johnson (Atlantis map - there were a lot of maps called Atlantis back then!);
• Brian C. Sasso AKA Mr. Zero (Azneer Building/Azneer13.map, a particularly good map centered around an actual university building and with large underwater section);
• Robert Carter (Beam Me Up Scotty and Warp Ship 255 - great space levels);
• Chris Muir (Highjack, Cruzship and Uptown - all quality levels);
• David J. Nolder AKA Dejer (Death Star map);
• John Mooney (Duke's Day Off map);
• Bud Drakir (Escape from Alcatraz map, particularly good from plethora of Alcatraz.map's of the time);
• Patrick Clemons (Filmwarp series, which used a lot of extra assets);
• Greg Hoyer (awesome G.J. Hoyer map);
• Enric Alvarez (LEM series, which also used lots of extra assets - I know that he's now a professional game developer);
• Dale Clowers (Mars series);
• Andrew Emmons (another Atlantis level - this one was particularly nice IIRC);
• Kevin Sipes AKA Gamerjoe (Watergun map).

Slight chance, but maybe this helps - I'd suggest posting these names to your contact and checking if any of them rings a bell...

Kristian Joensen, on 28 February 2021 - 06:13 AM, said:

This describes it without any reference to Duke or the Build engine(although some of the comments mention that aspect): https://www.reddit.c...in_cosi_toledo/

Are you sure it is not either A)A standalone TC/game using the Build engine or B)On some other engine with similar graphics to Build?

Edit:

I ask because that Reddit post describes it as an: "old scuba diving game". He uses the word "game" instead of "mod" or "level". It might just be an unprecise choice of word or his memory being bad. But still, it could be helpful.

ck3D, on 14 February 2021 - 09:39 AM, said:

I was waiting before posting to see if anyone on here actually knew about that specific map, but I guess not. My best guess would be to check long-standing Duke 3D map and mod reviewing websites (https://msdn.duke4.net, https://dnr.duke4.net, http://www.scent-88.com, https://www.arrovfnukem.com are the primary ones I can think of), where you can sort public releases by date and maybe some screenshots in the 1996 releases would catch your attention, if not of the map itself then perhaps one will bring back memories of the style it used. Back in 1996, in order to stand out mappers had to have their own rather specific style (well the same is true today, but the output of online releases seems like it was a non-stop chaotic mess at the time, so good releases were especially recognizable); if the author you're looking for was popular, as you said, chances are you might be able to identify them. Chances also are that the contact info in the joined .txt files has expired since 1996 but if their real name is in there, you can probably try an online search from then on.

Good luck! Also the story sounds vaguely familiar, so I might have read about that map before, or maybe it was something else just the practice of hiring mappers back when the game had peak popularity that wasn't uncommon at the time. Would love to hear if you ever end up finding it.

Update: October 30th, 2023

Hello again everyone,

I am very sorry that I have allowed this thread to go dead in the last coupled years. I have been busy with projects that have had to take priority, and as a result have not begun trying to dig anyone out of the woodwork until now.

As of this evening, I have been able to find and contact everyone that has been listed as a possible source of information via a variety of both new and old contact details. Whether or not all of these channels are being monitored due to age, is another story. We will have to wait and see.

I was even able to find who I think is Robert Travis!

I was unable to find any contact details that returned as delivered for either
Chris Muir
Bud Drakir

I will also forward the list of names that we have now gathered to the ROTO people to see if any memory can be reconstructed.

Until an answer comes back, does anyone have contact details for any of the people listed? I think many of my contact attempts will be dead ends and I would like to try to get the word out via as many channels as possible.

Regards
Alex

[FisherMako]

Galacnor, on 30 October 2023 - 07:39 PM, said:

Update: October 30th, 2023

Hello again everyone,

I am very sorry that I have allowed this thread to go dead in the last coupled years. I have been busy with projects that have had to take priority, and as a result have not begun trying to dig anyone out of the woodwork until now.

As of this evening, I have been able to find and contact everyone that has been listed as a possible source of information via a variety of both new and old contact details. Whether or not all of these channels are being monitored due to age, is another story. We will have to wait and see.

I was even able to find who I think is Robert Travis!

I was unable to find any contact details that returned as delivered for either
Chris Muir
Bud Drakir

I will also forward the list of names that we have now gathered to the ROTO people to see if any memory can be reconstructed.

Until an answer comes back, does anyone have contact details for any of the people listed? I think many of my contact attempts will be dead ends and I would like to try to get the word out via as many channels as possible.

Regards
Alex

[FisherMako]

I also remember this game from the Toledo COSI in the early 2000s. If I remember correctly, there were almost no HUD elements, and the environment and atmosphere were relatively empty. There was definitely a female diver character, and I seem to remember the first room being a large rocky basin with a sunken boat of some kind at the bottom, requiring you to swim through a submerged cave to progress.

I've made an account for this site specifically for this thread, I would love to recover this lost media. If nobody has yet, it may be worth posting to reddit at r/LostMedia as the folks over there tend to be impressively good at finding even the most obscure lost media.