Why we don't have Little Mods in this community
#1 Posted 05 December 2020 - 01:49 PM
First of all, there's only a handful of us making mods, and those of us who are are motivated by a desire to create an overall experience for the player. From our point of view there is nothing to be gained by making a mod that tweaks one or two little things in the game, unless it's an experiment or a joke. We have played the vanilla game a ton and we are done with it -- our sights are set on bigger things.
Beyond that, there are also technical obstacles. EDuke32 CON script is certainly more modular-friendly than it used to be, but it's still not possible for a noob to just drop in a mutator mod and combine it with other mods. Without the ability to combine mods, the idea of having a mod that makes one or two little changes is not very attractive. In a best-case scenario, the mod would be a chunk of code starting with "appendevent" and ending with "endevent" and would contain no gamevar declarations. As such, the code could simply be pasted into a CON file that already gets loaded for the game, and it would work. That's still not a guarantee because it could potentially conflict with other code, but if it's as I described then it certainly has the potential to work fine with other mods.
So let's say I make a mod like that and I post the code. Then the question comes from the noob, "what do I do with the code?" And I say, "you can just paste it into GAME.CON". And then the noob says, "Where is that?" And that's a problem because in many cases their GAME.CON is not accessible -- it's inside of their DUKE3D.GRP, and they may not even know where that is. Ok, so let's say I distribute it as an EDUKE.CON that consists of include GAME.CON plus my little addition. Then the noob can just put it in their game folder. That's better, but it will only get you so far. To add more little mods, they have to be pasted into or included in that EDUKE.CON and noobs will have trouble with this. Also, they will not know how to combine the little mod with other bigger mods that have their own code and do not use GAME.CON.
Another technical issue is that CON script does not allow for local variables. This can cause trouble because the new mod might declare a variable that has the same name as one used in other included mods, and that can lead to a number of issues.
So in short it's just not worth the trouble.
#2 Posted 05 December 2020 - 09:12 PM
#4 Posted 06 December 2020 - 08:48 AM
Being able to just join a server and having it download automatically is a huge advantage, especially if there are other players.
#6 Posted 06 December 2020 - 01:33 PM
#7 Posted 06 December 2020 - 01:45 PM
Nonetheless, there was one I was working on with someone, so if there really is demand for such things, I may share it when I'm done with it - it's horrid, but it was meant solely as a joke anyway, so whatever.
#8 Posted 06 December 2020 - 02:00 PM
High Treason, on 06 December 2020 - 01:45 PM, said:
Yeah, typically little mods do include those things, my example of a single event only mod was a best-case scenario for one that would be modular and play well with others.
_______________________
Over the years I've seen various requests from people asking "can you make a mod that only does this" or "can you make a mod that just has this one feature from your bigger mod that I like" and the purpose of this thread was to explain why mods like that are rare.
#9 Posted 06 December 2020 - 02:32 PM
#10 Posted 06 December 2020 - 05:33 PM
#11 Posted 06 December 2020 - 11:54 PM
I mean, a person should at the very least start from something basic (useless if too lazy to read and just complain), but some things are too hard to be understood by a normal user.
I always found DukePlus menu just genial, even a crybaby can set the game as he prefer, if it was even more expanded and the user could add/switch even more stuff ie: explosive/electric/nuclear projectiles and many more things like, visual recoil, jetpack firelines, switch some sounds, well it would have been be just perfect.
I know that most can seem minor stuff, but put all of it togheter and... wow! It could work like an in-game editor.
Well, if i had the knowledge i would liked to spent my time on some editor, maybe in C++ that could compile CON files based on what the user select, but yeah, it is easy to say than to do it i guess, now you can call me poor fool
This post has been edited by The Battlelord: 07 December 2020 - 12:10 AM
#12 Posted 07 December 2020 - 04:01 AM
IS
NOT
MODULAR
.
And it's no more 1999, where -we- used to make and/or need little mods.
The "noobs" sure want to both learn and make something for the community, but it's the wrong time.
And i think we duke coders are a sort of masochists to like and use a so frustrating language/approach
This post has been edited by RichardStorm: 07 December 2020 - 04:23 AM
#13 Posted 07 December 2020 - 10:16 PM
Of course a good few of those can be achieved by just modifying the USER.CON, which was put there for exactly that sort of purpose. Not all of them, though.
This post has been edited by Ninety-Six: 07 December 2020 - 10:16 PM
#14 Posted 08 December 2020 - 07:23 AM
#15 Posted 08 December 2020 - 08:38 AM
Sure, some mods can be easily merged up, but it requires that also the user has some coding skills, both CON and DEF when needed.
#16 Posted 08 December 2020 - 11:20 AM
#17 Posted 08 December 2020 - 02:37 PM
Making maps is easier though, obv- I plan on releasing at least one. But as for modding... I tried picking up on it once but, I'll leave to those who know what they're doing. I admire whoever makes mods tbh
This post has been edited by Mya!: 08 December 2020 - 02:38 PM
#18 Posted 08 December 2020 - 07:03 PM
You can also look at a mod like Brutal Duke that increase blood effects and gibs. In the grand scheme of things it's probably not necessary, and is superseded by something like say, DukePlus. However having the option of having a stand alone "Blood & Gore" mod is certainly useful. And yes it is fun to see enforcer arms and mob pieces on the floor after I blow them up with my rpg.
Heck even small mods that change ammo/health pickups or weapon damage can change drastically the way we play DN3D, making it more of a survivalist/tactical game were it is not worth it killing easy mobs with for risk of wasting ammo. Heck you may even start using Duke's Mighty Foot for once.
Is this a compatibility nightmare at times? Yes. I was/still occasionally am a active Skyrim modder and it is hell on earth to get little messages that say "Hi can you plz make this dungeon mod compatible with this stripper house that X added in de same area thnx bae".
However although I somewhat agree with this quote:
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and this one after reading Gerolf''s excellent CON tutorials
Quote
IS
NOT
MODULAR
.
And it's no more 1999, where -we- used to make and/or need little mods.
The "noobs" sure want to both learn and make something for the community, but it's the wrong time.
I as a Duke Nukem 3D mod end user also agree with this:
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I mean, a person should at the very least start from something basic (useless if too lazy to read and just complain), but some things are too hard to be understood by a normal user.
It has not been hard to learn as a end user how to mod the game. It has no been hard to learn what are .def files, how to ensure compatibility between texture mods, how to insert lines of code into user.con or game.con. What has been hard is hunting the information to be able to learn what as a end user I can't or can do. I think that if there was a guide or tutorial that was centered on helping end users learn good Duke Nukem 3D modding practices and had "noob friendly" language than the problems were "noobs" bothered mod makers would be greatly diminished.
That would NOT SOLVE the other problems Danukem and Richardstorm have talked about. But it would at least stop the noob debacle.
#19 Posted 08 December 2020 - 07:11 PM
This post has been edited by Mark: 08 December 2020 - 07:12 PM
#20 Posted 08 December 2020 - 07:12 PM
jkas789, on 08 December 2020 - 07:03 PM, said:
If you like I can make another thread about why we don't have that either.
#21 Posted 09 December 2020 - 04:03 AM
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This would be very interesting, as i don't know it myself.
Anyway, i think that the words of this thread need to be cleared a little bit more... i mean:
"Why we don't have little mod in this community"
We actually DO have tons of little mods in this community, if we take ALL the mods/addons we got since 1995... and people still do something similar, regardless if they want to add little feature, if they just want something to start with, and if is "crap" or "gold".
The question is if the title want to say something like " We don't want little mods", or "There is no (more?) space for little mods" ... and more important, if there is a suffix like ", unfortunately", or "god damn it".
Also, i'd question the meaning of "noob", if is just who is approaching to modding duke and is not aware of all those limits, or it is perceived as a bothering kid.
I'm not criticizing nor questioning Dan himself of course about these two clarifications, but what we Dukers think about that.
It is also curious how new people get near to this 25 y.o. game with a dead franchise... not like Doom, i mean.
To solve the CON problem, anyway, i think to two parallel solutions:
the former, and simpler, is to spam everywhere the minimum know-how for approaching Duke3d modding till is near impossible to have a single unaware "noob" in that sense. BOTH for user only, and for modders of any kind.
the second, so difficult but not impossible as one mentioned, is to gradually convert Eduke from reading CON and DEF toward more modularity like Csomething, classes, a mod loader, maybe another map editor etc.
#22 Posted 09 December 2020 - 07:20 AM
Yeah, that should be a other thread about that problem(s) too.
==
Modularity for CON coding and can load multiple small mods would help but still CON is a tough thing, and I think the whole Build+Duke3D codebase just too complicated for that to make that happens...it's possible but who want to do that?
This post has been edited by Player Lin: 09 December 2020 - 07:30 AM
#23 Posted 09 December 2020 - 08:12 AM
I'm not the sharpest knife in the set but with time I was able to figure out Con coding. Like a lot of modders I started by changing numbers in the USER.CON for ammo, strength, etc. Then I started looking at other mods and TCs and would make a guess at which lines of code I needed to copy/paste into my project for a certain feature. Of course the game log file would spit out a bunch of errors. Thru much trial and error I would attempt to figure out how to correct those errors one at a time. Thats where the learning really started. I used the wiki for reference constantly.
But there were a lot of times I couldn't figure something out no matter how long I tried so I turned to a few of the better coders around here for some help. Sometimes I would get lucky and they would supply the snippet of code I needed. Other times they would explain the general concept and tell me which con commands to try but I still needed to figure out how to use those commands. Many times the advice assumed I had more knowledge than I had and I was too embarassed to admit I had no idea how to do what they just suggested. So it was back to more trial and error. This is when I wished the wiki gave more code examples and explained in less technical mumbo -jumbo.
#24 Posted 09 December 2020 - 08:35 AM
Mark, on 09 December 2020 - 08:12 AM, said:
I'm not the sharpest knife in the set but with time I was able to figure out Con coding. Like a lot of modders I started by changing numbers in the USER.CON for ammo, strength, etc. Then I started looking at other mods and TCs and would make a guess at which lines of code I needed to copy/paste into my project for a certain feature. Of course the game log file would spit out a bunch of errors. Thru much trial and error I would attempt to figure out how to correct those errors one at a time. Thats where the learning really started. I used the wiki for reference constantly.
But there were a lot of times I couldn't figure something out no matter how long I tried so I turned to a few of the better coders around here for some help. Sometimes I would get lucky and they would supply the snippet of code I needed. Other times they would explain the general concept and tell me which con commands to try but I still needed to figure out how to use those commands. Many times the advice assumed I had more knowledge than I had and I was too embarassed to admit I had no idea how to do what they just suggested. So it was back to more trial and error. This is when I wished the wiki gave more code examples and explained in less technical mumbo -jumbo.
Agree with that. I got into coding and mapping in eduke 2.5 months ago and i had a really tough time. coded some stuff before in C#, but Con was a different beast. Simple things like manual reloads, graphical stuff, and balancing or new weapons/bullets were relatively easy, but i'm making a TC and i wanted it to look badass. so i had to make a new HUD of course. and THAT's where i had to turn to people with more knowledge than me. I think what's missing the most on the wiki is a tutorial for an HUD or a template somewhere. was a nightmare figuring everything out because i asked for help near the end, as like you i was too stubborn to admit i didn't understand that much. We need more tutorials on TOUGH things. easy ones? people can figure them out, but add a complete tutorial for new weapons, enemies like the one Dan was doing some time ago, HUD's or even new features that could be common to many mods, like ladders and such.
#25 Posted 09 December 2020 - 08:46 AM
This post has been edited by Mark: 09 December 2020 - 08:47 AM
#26 Posted 09 December 2020 - 09:37 AM
For an example in FPS game for me best is add - more levels or replace/add more weapons - two things what make game better. For HL1 I add better made weapons ( my dream list) and playing with this change, is more enjoyable.
This post has been edited by Nfsfan83: 09 December 2020 - 09:39 AM
#27 Posted 10 December 2020 - 10:41 PM
Danukem, on 08 December 2020 - 07:12 PM, said:
Wait there was one? I'm gonna guess someone somewhere (probably an end user) fucked up real bad. This is why we can't have nice things.
If there is interesting lore behind it I would very much like to know actually.
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"Why we don't have little mod in this community"
I mean sure I guess. Though I never thought about it as Danukem/the community not wanting them or there being no space for them, but rather as a "Well shit son I'm working on my own stuff and frankly everybody is as well. And if you fuck this up with the code I posted than I can't help you because as I said I'm busy". Which I can understand as someone involved in another modding community. You don't have the time help everyone/hand hold them through everything let alone doing a mod for someone. Time is precious and you gotta prioritize it. Also compatibility. Can't stress that enough. And also CON scripting (at least for me who I'm trying to learn) is hard.
The noob question I assumed someone was posting around or sending comments to someone telling them to please make this cool mod.
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God damn it now I'm gonna have to go back to the quagmire that is thread hunting. Although honestly if I want to do that I'll just run rednukem with a Duke64 rom, plus I get to play with the grenade launcher. ...but my curiosity has been piqued.
#28 Posted 11 December 2020 - 05:47 AM
#29 Posted 11 December 2020 - 05:55 AM
jkas789, on 10 December 2020 - 10:41 PM, said:
If I had to guess, it's less about "deep lore" of the community, and more that trying to have "tutorials" for CON sits at the intersection of two difficult things - Trying to teach people programming, and trying to inform people about a myriad of quirks and oddities of the scripting language. IMO it's beyond the scope of a tutorial to teach people how to program and good programming practices. And as for the quirks of the language and the engine, and more that there isn't One True Way to implement most features of solve most problems. You could ask 5 separate CON programmers to create an effect, and get at least 6 different results.
Back in the Dukeworld days I ran a CON editing "tutorial site" and there was only so much you could do without, at a certain point, just writing code for other people. Granted, this was before the days of EDuke so it was a lot simpler, but there was still the same problems then.
This post has been edited by Reaper_Man: 11 December 2020 - 05:55 AM
#30 Posted 11 December 2020 - 06:26 AM
This post has been edited by Jimmy: 11 December 2020 - 06:27 AM