[pavigna]

Hello! As you may know, these past few months i've been working on making my very own Total Conversion for duke. I decided to upload some pictures of part of the map, so that i can get some feedback on it. Enjoy!

ps. in this map there's a Mega-Secret. if you find it you'll chuckle quite a bit...









As i said before, i really appreciate some Feedback, right now mostly on use of space or texturing and such.

-Tom

[Ninety-Six]

The streets look a bit empty, but I do kinda like the downtown vibe this map seems to have going for it. It could probably use some stronger lighting I think; the outside is very flatly lit. Maybe have some of the brights closer to the buildings but a little more shading further away? I'm not sure.

Still, oddly enough downtown-ish maps like this I find sort of rare. To be in the heart of an urban location which is what Duke 3D is best at. I'm kinda looking forward to this for that alone.

[NNC]

I actually like the ""emptiness"" of the streets, it's refreshing to see classic style instead of the disorientating overdetailing most levels these days come up with.

The street ball court looks very good btw.

[ck3D]

Yes the space isn't a problem at all I don't think, that aspect is looking good.

Texturing tips:

- Signs that cover windows in 'absurd' ways (not being centered, covering random parts of windows etc.) always look off to me (i.e.. here the IMF sign, and the Duke Burger sign looks a bit nicer but could also be centered better over those windows), but then again I wouldn't want to push that OCD of mine on you. Similarly, that one sloped roof is literally cutting through windows which doesn't really make sense, just panning and realigning the texture should suffice to arrange that;

- Million Dollar sign could use some extra walls and trimming, as of now the repetition looks weird and I'm naturally tempted to read MillionDollarMillionDollar, Attack Of The Attack Of The etc. when in reality you have the exact same tile without the text just next to that texture in the set and you could apply that to different parts (all the while keeping respecting the alignment). Especially the side of that sign should be the text free version of that texture IMO. Speaking of which, the wall just above the side of the sign doesn't have to bear a window like the other perpendicular walls are, if you wanted to break some of the monotony keep in mind that you could just pan the tile manually on that one wall to have just the concrete part showing. Right now doesn't look wrong or bad at all, it's just an idea, similarly you could split long walls into smaller ones and play with mismatching their respective textures like that for trimming (as long as they look aligned).

- Shading/lighting looks OK in some screenshots (i.e.. the first one) but non-existent in most others, I'm hoping that's just temporary as you can obviously pull it off, just don't get lazy (many do, especially once they've built way too much level to then comfortably go back and 'fix' wall by wall).

New art looks pretty cool. I also like how you structure your buildings with the little entrances and lobbys. On screen 1, are you using one sector for each of those squares or are those flat sprites? If it's the former then it's quite a superfluous investment of resources (but why not, and I don't think you even intend to come close to the wall limit in particular with this map), although on the other hand you could always apply different floor rise SE's to them if at some point of the progression you want to turn them into stairs and allow Duke to reach an upper area (would look surrealistic but nothing shocking in-universe, maybe for a secret, like an apartment on the fourth floor of that building on the right). I'm definitely using that idea myself now, lol. But essentially, sectors and walls are precious resources, so it's a good idea to try and think of a function for them (usually before but also) once you've spent them.

[Nukem1994x]

It's looking really good so far. Very nice detail! I love street maps so i'm sure i'll enjoy this

[Merlijn]

I think it looks really nice! I agree with the others that the shading could be stronger, especially in that last indoor screenshot.
At the very least there should be wall shading to add some depth to the room.
But the downtown style is cool.

[pavigna]

ck3D, on 17 November 2020 - 04:10 AM, said:

Yes the space isn't a problem at all I don't think, that aspect is looking good.

Texturing tips:

- Signs that cover windows in 'absurd' ways (not being centered, covering random parts of windows etc.) always look off to me (i.e.. here the IMF sign, and the Duke Burger sign looks a bit nicer but could also be centered better over those windows), but then again I wouldn't want to push that OCD of mine on you. Similarly, that one sloped roof is literally cutting through windows which doesn't really make sense, just panning and realigning the texture should suffice to arrange that;

- Million Dollar sign could use some extra walls and trimming, as of now the repetition looks weird and I'm naturally tempted to read MillionDollarMillionDollar, Attack Of The Attack Of The etc. when in reality you have the exact same tile without the text just next to that texture in the set and you could apply that to different parts (all the while keeping respecting the alignment). Especially the side of that sign should be the text free version of that texture IMO. Speaking of which, the wall just above the side of the sign doesn't have to bear a window like the other perpendicular walls are, if you wanted to break some of the monotony keep in mind that you could just pan the tile manually on that one wall to have just the concrete part showing. Right now doesn't look wrong or bad at all, it's just an idea, similarly you could split long walls into smaller ones and play with mismatching their respective textures like that for trimming (as long as they look aligned).

- Shading/lighting looks OK in some screenshots (i.e.. the first one) but non-existent in most others, I'm hoping that's just temporary as you can obviously pull it off, just don't get lazy (many do, especially once they've built way too much level to then comfortably go back and 'fix' wall by wall).

New art looks pretty cool. I also like how you structure your buildings with the little entrances and lobbys. On screen 1, are you using one sector for each of those squares or are those flat sprites? If it's the former then it's quite a superfluous investment of resources (but why not, and I don't think you even intend to come close to the wall limit in particular with this map), although on the other hand you could always apply different floor rise SE's to them if at some point of the progression you want to turn them into stairs and allow Duke to reach an upper area (would look surrealistic but nothing shocking in-universe, maybe for a secret, like an apartment on the fourth floor of that building on the right). I'm definitely using that idea myself now, lol. But essentially, sectors and walls are precious resources, so it's a good idea to try and think of a function for them (usually before but also) once you've spent them.

you're talking about the disco's shading, right? yeah that looks flat because it was took in game while cyclers were making the disco look alive ( The lights flash like a real disco, also the floor is animated and the discoball spins.) as for the walls, i know they're a rare resource but i can spare a few. i have some build tricks and weird stuff, alongside a secret that took 2 hours to make and is quite tough to find. also worth mentioning that the Bus and the red car behind the grey building move and drive around. i will definitely get around to fixing the shading and textures though. Thanks for the advice!

[ck3D]

pavigna, on 17 November 2020 - 11:12 AM, said:

you're talking about the disco's shading, right? yeah that looks flat because it was took in game while cyclers were making the disco look alive ( The lights flash like a real disco, also the floor is animated and the discoball spins.) as for the walls, i know they're a rare resource but i can spare a few. i have some build tricks and weird stuff, alongside a secret that took 2 hours to make and is quite tough to find. also worth mentioning that the Bus and the red car behind the grey building move and drive around. i will definitely get around to fixing the shading and textures though. Thanks for the advice!

Well, just now I had trouble loading this thread, which caused the screenshots to pop up full size for a minute and now I feel stupid because I can tell every building is actually shaded properly (with adjacent walls having different shade values), for some reason I didn't get that impression earlier, maybe because the contrast isn't very strong and the shots loaded in a smaller size for me so it was harder to tell. So it's cool that you're already running with that logic, now if I were you I wouldn't hesitate every once in a while to experiment with even stronger contrast, for even more depth, it seems scary at first but in my opinion it really almost always works and is fun. Maybe make sure you're actually applying that 'rule' everywhere though because my criticism looks like it actually still stands for some occasional bits and bobs (for instance the grey walls around the basketball field look like they all share the same value, don't forget to apply it to every object such as cars for instance, just in case you did). And no, actually, the disco didn't bother me because I could tell there must have been working lights causing the uniform look. I like the funky palettes too.

Another sweet addition to those streets would be some long shadows from the buildings (wherever possible, even if it's just corners).

[pavigna]

ck3D, on 17 November 2020 - 11:40 AM, said:

Well, just now I had trouble loading this thread, which caused the screenshots to pop up full size for a minute and now I feel stupid because I can tell every building is actually shaded properly (with adjacent walls having different shade values), for some reason I didn't get that impression earlier, maybe because the contrast isn't very strong and the shots loaded in a smaller size for me so it was harder to tell. So it's cool that you've running with that logic, now if I were you I wouldn't hesitate every once in a while to experiment with even stronger contrast, for even more depth, it seems scary at first but in my opinion it really almost always works and is fun. Maybe make sure you're actually applying that 'rule' everywhere though because my criticism looks like it actually still stands for some occasional bits and bobs (for instance the grey walls around the basketball field look like they all share the same value, don't forget to apply it to every object such as cars for instance, just in case you did). And no, actually, the disco didn't bother me because I could tell there must have been working lights causing the uniform look. I like the funky palettes too.

Another sweet addition to those streets would be some long shadows from the buildings (wherever possible, even if it's just corners).

Ok so, long shadows are there. i just didn't take pictures of them. the only building that doesn't have long shadows is the Motel building because that street has locators for the bus, so no work there

As for the basketball court ones, i just checked. I just didn't shade those at all lol. in a few days or more i might release the map, or maybe should i hold out for a full episode 1 release?

[Aleks]

I'd agree with most comments (especially ck3D's ones which are most on point). Also, I've already given you quite some hints on Discord. One general thing I'd advise you would be to play (or at least look at screens) more maps by other people to get inspirations and ideas, as well as get familiar with "state of the art" design tricks. Of the top of my head, just play any city maps by ck3D or check his new topic with screens from his episode in the making.

Then going specifically by those screenshots, I'd say:

• Screen 1: Building with cinema sign has weirdly panned wall textures - the windows are cut in the upper part. Also, as I've already told you - maybe try adding some more details on the walls, so they don't look so monotone (flat sprites, for example different tapestries in windows with colorful palettes), also maybe a good idea would be to wrap the buildings around with some tiny sectors imitating a protruding part of roof.
• Screen 2: I'd suggest making the pavement a bit wider and perhaps a multiple of 512 build units, so the tiles look "even" - but that might be more of my own OCD here
• Screen 4: The basketball court looks quite cool. Maybe you could divide the little wall around it by joining inner and outer vertices, then flip the floor textures, so they form more naturally at the walls behind the baskets.
• Screen 7: The alien maskwalls used as a railing in disco are quite nice, but maybe add some sprites to neatly finish this railing off at the entrance on the scene. Also, since you're using cyclers there anyway and I assume you got lots of spare walls - why not break this room with diagonal lines for parts like "pizza slices" and tag the cyclers in a sequence around these slices, to create some really cool lighting effects there (and quite fitting to the disco ball)?

Oh and:

Quote

in a few days or more i might release the map, or maybe should i hold out for a full episode 1 release?

Maybe it would be a good idea to release it even in a WIP state so some people would play and give you more in-depth advice. It would be easier to fix just one map now, then going back map by map when you have whole episode ready and perhaps can help you get rid of some of the design flaws before you start making them again on next maps.
BTW

ck3D, on 17 November 2020 - 04:10 AM, said:

If it's the former then it's quite a superfluous investment of resources (but why not, and I don't think you even intend to come close to the wall limit in particular with this map), although on the other hand you could always apply different floor rise SE's to them if at some point of the progression you want to turn them into stairs and allow Duke to reach an upper area (would look surrealistic but nothing shocking in-universe, maybe for a secret, like an apartment on the fourth floor of that building on the right). I'm definitely using that idea myself now, lol.

Hahaha, you're really hooked up on that idea now, aren't you?

[Jimmy]

The Watchtower, on 17 November 2020 - 01:56 AM, said:

I actually like the ""emptiness"" of the streets, it's refreshing to see classic style instead of the disorientating overdetailing most levels these days come up with.

The street ball court looks very good btw.

I agree. I liked everything up until the last shot. The room is overbright, the new textures aren't great, and overall it just comes across as garish. Not trying to be a hater, everything else looks excellent.

[pavigna]

Jimmy, on 17 November 2020 - 09:40 PM, said:

I agree. I liked everything up until the last shot. The room is overbright, the new textures aren't great, and overall it just comes across as garish. Not trying to be a hater, everything else looks excellent.

I know, but as i already said, cyclers. It glows.



This is when it's off. it glows fast, but not like epilepsy fast

[Ninety-Six]

Ah. Yeah that makes sense.

How did you get those colored steps, anyway?

[Jimmy]

Still don't love it but that's just me. It's not the worst thing I've ever seen. No big deal.

[pavigna]

Ninety-Six, on 17 November 2020 - 11:49 PM, said:

Ah. Yeah that makes sense.

How did you get those colored steps, anyway?

I used different palettes, even going as far as Palette 30. those give a really cool disco look. At least i hope.

Oh and also the map is out, so if you want you can play it for yourself and take a look around.