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Make the game you want to play -- Agree?

User is offline   MrFlibble 

#31

There's one thing.

Here's a game made by a guy who created exactly the game he wanted to play (browser version): DIMONO.

I played it a bit for a while and since there is no English documentation I wrote a brief description here.

The game is competently done, has original mechanics and rules (does not directly copy any other board/puzzle game), and is playable and challenging. Yet personally I would not want to play it a lot. I'm completely neutral about this game, in fact.

Of course I don't know how many people actually find this game as interesting and exciting as its original author. But somehow I tend to think that this audience is not very large. (Maybe I'm wrong.)

But what I am sure of is that there are many similar developers out there, with original ideas and actually well done, interesting games, which are however pretty much niche, and many not being saleable material at all.
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User is offline   oasiz 

  • Dr. Effector

#32

Games are an artform, art is personal expression.

But games are also a medium of consumable entertainment and business that brings bread to table.

I don't fully agree with "Step aside".
Bad management. Bureaucracy, challenges, etc.. always become a bigger factor the bigger the possible payoff is.

As we truly drive and push the artform, it requires more and more resources, which translates to money.
We like to rag on a bout AAA not caring but it's an easy target, we forget that there are a ton of successes among the failures.
Difference is that any failures and hard lessons learned are just increasingly more visible.

With a bigger project it will be impossible to get outcomes that everybody is 100% on board with, but this is where it also be comes work and you do things you might not necessarily enjoy.
However it's important to remember again that games cost money and it must be financed out of somewhere. This allows dreams to become a reality.

A talented team with lots of passion can create both trash or treasure, you actually rarely get something where the devs truly don't give a shit.
These do happen and very visibly too, but there can be multiple reasons behind it as well.

Of course there is the other category of studios that crank out as much shovelware, etc.. to the market as possible but hey.. It's not like we don't have B movies.
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User is offline   Sanek 

#33

I think that whatever game you make, you must make it so you'll enjoy playing it yourself, but also make sure that you won't be the only person who's actually liking it. It must have some qualities that'll make people notice the game, whether it's visuals, genre or whatever.

I made SilverballZ and all of you guys ignored it. I also made a mind-teasing sort of a game that wasn't noticed eiher. Granted, I made exactly what I wanted to make and what I personally wanted to play, but I learned a lesson here.

From now on, I'm going to make a much more casual sort of a games with easy-to-learn, understandable or instantly recognisable gameplay mechanics. Games that I'd like to play myself and other people can play too, presumably in a shorts bursts - a coffee break type of games.
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User is online   ck3D 

#34

View PostMrFlibble, on 19 October 2020 - 04:29 AM, said:

There's one thing.

Here's a game made by a guy who created exactly the game he wanted to play (browser version): DIMONO.

I played it a bit for a while and since there is no English documentation I wrote a brief description here.

The game is competently done, has original mechanics and rules (does not directly copy any other board/puzzle game), and is playable and challenging. Yet personally I would not want to play it a lot. I'm completely neutral about this game, in fact.

Of course I don't know how many people actually find this game as interesting and exciting as its original author. But somehow I tend to think that this audience is not very large. (Maybe I'm wrong.)

But what I am sure of is that there are many similar developers out there, with original ideas and actually well done, interesting games, which are however pretty much niche, and many not being saleable material at all.


Oh I'm sure there is a great number of instances like this. Quality doesn't equal global fame and positive reception, it's just what it is, a sign of authenticity (that usually results in original substance) but it doesn't mean commercial success; just that it's going to speak to who it's going to speak to. I'm not 100% familiar with the industry of gaming in particular but in general, cultures that peaked in the late 80's/early 90's now have come to a point where their mainstream exploitation sort of subverted the interest they once had, and now so-called 'business-smart' creators kind of have to choose between either making an inherently good product or a commercial hit from the get-go, in many scenarii target audiences are defined before production or even conceptualization of a project even starts, and then you have every individual in the game trying to find the happiest medium between their vision and the constraints their ambition bears. That in this day and age where people are driven to consume mindlessly, niche stuff remains niche should come to no surprise, numbers no longer equates quality as much as marketing, but it's not marketing alone that keeps the whole boat afloat. Think about it, all the time people spend complaining about AAA games could be instead spent praising this or that good indie game, it's just that the power of marketing is so strong people nowadays don't know any better than eating up what's thrown in front of them - if you even consider researching alternatives, part of the industry considers you an exception.

I have a friend who used to run an advertising company and part of what he was selling to his clients was social media boosts, essentially he had access to whatever software and hardware he needed to artificially boost follower count and interaction on platforms like Instagram, and for 'practice' he spent some time boosting his own personal account with nothing on it but some very generic digital photography that might as well have come from some anonymous data bank. Three weeks into the process he had gotten to over 80K followers, and the interaction on his feed was crazy - literally just automated comments, and bots replicating the human language 'talking' to each other, but you'd click on every profile and there was nothing. The literal definition of inflated emptiness. And companies pay for that. That's the type of 'success' a lot of people pursuing numbers before everything else really are after these days, so if society has got to be headed that way then it's all the more crucial to remember about how there even are (many) alternatives to basically every product one can think of, and that it's possible to actually live life without giving a flying shit about everything mainstream.
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User is offline   Mark 

#35

Sanek: IIRC it was only a small thing that kept me from playing SilverballZ. Player movement with keyboard. I know its a dumb personal preference but I give a pass on games with WASD control. I like my mouse. ;)

This post has been edited by Mark: 19 October 2020 - 05:32 AM

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User is online   ck3D 

#36

View PostSanek, on 19 October 2020 - 05:01 AM, said:

I think that whatever game you make, you must make it so you'll enjoy playing it yourself, but also make sure that you won't be the only person who's actually liking it. It must have some qualities that'll make people notice the game, whether it's visuals, genre or whatever.

I made SilverballZ and all of you guys ignored it. I also made a mind-teasing sort of a game that wasn't noticed eiher. Granted, I made exactly what I wanted to make and what I personally wanted to play, but I learned a lesson here.

From now on, I'm going to make a much more casual sort of a games with easy-to-learn, understandable or instantly recognisable gameplay mechanics. Games that I'd like to play myself and other people can play too, presumably in a shorts bursts - a coffee break type of games.


Yeah, if you're trying to appeal to an audience and not just make playable content for yourself, then of course you have to at least consider who you want to speak to, and sometimes throwing in flashy stuff like unexpected candy in the bag actually works really well (the strippers and toilets probably played a huge role in the commercial success of Duke 3D, even if that's not the aspect we prefer to remember). Making playable content for yourself is only bound to sometimes work, sometimes not depending on how many people can happen to relate to your mindset and vision of a game, in a way it's the polar opposite of making a commercial product, but at least then the results are somewhat substantial in that they may bring unmarketable yet fun new elements to the table. Also it's not like there isn't a full spectrum between those two extremes, so the subject is complex.

It's also business smart to consider how people have a way different (shorter) attention span nowadays than they used to in the 1990's, and adapt your format accordingly. I guess I didn't play SilverballZ exactly because of that, as well as a lot of people, the format was probably right for your workflow and ambition and it's just the platform that wasn't appropriate.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 19 October 2020 - 05:37 AM

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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • The Sarien Encounter

#37

I still really like SilverballZ. And it's totally playable with a mouse. That's how I played it...
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User is online   ck3D 

#38

I didn't play SilverballZ for the same reason I usually miss out on a lot of user map releases to be honest (these days I watch playthrough videos on YouTube more than I actually play maps, unless I'm beta testing something, as it takes less exclusive attention when you're just curious): lack of time and, whenever I do find some spare time, of focus as then I'm just tempted to create instead. I try and keep a mental backlog of all the cool recent stuff I really want to check out, for instance I know I have bullerbuller7's Bioshock level and Sanek's latest map yet to play, and have had for a while now, but 99.9% of the time 100% of the time instead of launching eDuke32 it's Mapster32 that I boot up. But you know what, why we do and don't/didn't play this or that community release might actually make for some good discussion, players commonly give precious feedback on what they've positively experienced, but it's rare to be told firsthand by people why they don't play something. Dan was onto something the other day bringing up how mods that don't come with original playable content (new maps) will be less enticing, for instance. On my end I honestly never directly played works like the AMC TC or AA because they look so ambitious the idea of getting into them is intimidating at first (which I reckon is stupid), same goes for Zaxtor's Oblivion and quite a bit of stuff actually, yet I do remember playing and enjoying mods like Dukeplus. It might have been Blown Fuses that led me to download it in the first place, though.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 19 October 2020 - 11:32 AM

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User is offline   OpenMaw 

  • Judge Mental

#39

I mean I do think it's important when you're making a game that you do understand and have awareness of your audience.

I think first and foremost you make the game you want, but when it comes time to put it out there and put the final touches on it, what are you going to do?

Not to self-promote too much but one thing that has changed with Save The Astronaut is in about a week I'm going to be dropping a patch with some big bruh-hah-hah to get the game some more visibility.

The biggest change in the patch has to do with the way game overs our now handled. Originally, the game over would boot you back to the main menu and you would have to continue the game. Seems reasonable right? Especially given that the style of the game is an old school 8bit inspired platformer. Lots of games on the NES do exactly that, right? Well there are complications.

One, the game saves your progress at the start of each level. So you can continue as you please whenever you leave the game and come back. However, if you're flustered from a game over and you go back to the main menu you can accidentally hit the start game button and lose your progress. This happened to about 4 or 5 of the people I sent the game out to before release. I had two options, either insert a context for the game to put the marker on "continue game" by default, or, what I chose to do is simply reset the level and knock a thousand points off the total score. This retains the intended "old school hard" of the game while completely avoiding any chance of a fuck up on the menu. I was studying my inspirations closely. Mario, Dig Dug, Bubble Bobble. I wasn't just mimicking them, I was trying to incorporate the authentic experience of those games into my own. However, other people, the vast majority of the people testing the game, all pretty much agreed it was an irritation that could lead to people not playing the game.
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#40

View Postck3D, on 19 October 2020 - 03:38 AM, said:

Going viral is the enemy of quality, most every shit product out there nowadays you can tell has been manufactured to try and go viral but otherwise bears no substantial quality, and is just a shell of looks. People shouldn't try to make games to go viral, they should try to make good games.



True that, but i think Duke3D is quality and i wished it had more popularity as it deserve it, indeed i know persons that only know about DNF and this disappoint me.


View Postck3D, on 19 October 2020 - 03:38 AM, said:

Also right time and place has nothing to do with luck when one isn't disconnected from their audience, the problem right now is that numbers are the new popular religion and companies would rather sacrifice humble but faithful and authentic niche audiences to instead try and appeal to more and more customers from the anonymous masses (that might or might not even exist, since by trying to please everybody, you please no one - so essentially, that model would only be viable in a world where bots would have buyer power).



Well, if for mere luck an important person notice a nice work that you done and share it, this will surely help you to spread the word, let's take in case your maps or some other modding projects from this community, i think they are brilliant and deserve even more attention out there.
For the rest i can only fully agree ;)
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User is online   ck3D 

#41

View PostOpenMaw, on 19 October 2020 - 11:38 AM, said:

I think first and foremost you make the game you want, but when it comes time to put it out there and put the final touches on it, what are you going to do?


That's easy, I'm obviously going to spend fourteen years on the final touches until it looks 'just right'.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 19 October 2020 - 12:21 PM

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User is offline   OpenMaw 

  • Judge Mental

#42

View Postck3D, on 19 October 2020 - 11:55 AM, said:

That's easy, I'm obviously going to spend fourteen years on the final touches until it looks 'just right'.



*slow clap*


I love it.


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User is offline   Aristotle Gumball 

  • banned!

#43

View Postck3D, on 19 October 2020 - 11:55 AM, said:

That's easy, I'm obviously going to spend fourteen years on the final touches until it looks 'just right'.


The struggle is real.
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User is offline   Mark 

#44

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 19 October 2020 - 06:02 AM, said:

I still really like SilverballZ. And it's totally playable with a mouse. That's how I played it...


I'll have to download it and play again. I went back to my post in the release thread and saw that I commented on the keyboard control. I think that was an issue when I was going to help him with a couple of small things in the game. I couldn't test it properly because of keyboard movement I dislike and thus never got good at it.

EDIT: You have a choice of WASD or use the mouselook for direction but you still have to hold down W and S keys to move forward and backward. My oddball control configuration of choice for 25 years makes it too hard to adapt quickly to anything different. I use RMB and spacebar for those

This post has been edited by Mark: 19 October 2020 - 02:16 PM

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User is online   ck3D 

#45

View PostCartaphallus, on 19 October 2020 - 01:52 PM, said:

The struggle is real.


Forever has been.
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User is online   Danukem 

  • Duke Plus Developer

#46

View Postck3D, on 19 October 2020 - 03:38 AM, said:

Going viral is the enemy of quality, most every shit product out there nowadays you can tell has been manufactured to try and go viral but otherwise bears no substantial quality


Yeah for example most games trying to go viral lately were variations on battle royale shooters. But then you look at the games that actually did go viral and it's Among Us, Phasmobia, and Fall Guys. Only Fall Guys is a battle royale and it's not a shooter. You can't predict what the next trend is going to be so just make a good game you want to play.
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User is online   ck3D 

#47

Trying to think of a recent-ish game with an original approach that still managed to go somewhat viral, I believe Cuphead qualifies, then again I'm sure a lot of stuff I just haven't been paying attention to does too. But it's a great example in my opinion of something driven by passion so much, the resulting product naturally overflows with it. Stripped down bare, that game was just a succession of classic 80's video game elements but the general direction was more honest than just riding the retro wave, and genuinely makes you almost completely forget that you're essentially playing some NES-styled boss rush thing.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 19 October 2020 - 02:37 PM

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User is online   ck3D 

#48

Sorry The Battlelord, I just saw your reply.

View PostThe Battlelord, on 19 October 2020 - 11:54 AM, said:

True that, but i think Duke3D is quality and i wished it had more popularity as it deserve it, indeed i know persons that only know about DNF and this disappoint me.


That's true, but that behavior is only logical when you think about it as a game from the mid nineties isn't something the new generations are particularly going to play (except the curious ones who're passionate enough about gaming to start looking up niche content, no matter how historic, that is). What you're describing is exactly why many think DNF tarnished the legacy of the whole franchise, it was an unremarkable game that failed to hit as hard as a reminder of its original quality as expected, when the timing would have been crucial for it. Honestly though, I feel like some recent decisions such as the Switch port of World Tour are making more people realize that Duke Nukem has more to offer than DNF.

View PostThe Battlelord, on 19 October 2020 - 11:54 AM, said:

Well, if for mere luck an important person notice a nice work that you done and share it, this will surely help you to spread the word, let's take in case your maps or some other modding projects from this community, i think they are brilliant and deserve even more attention out there.
For the rest i can only fully agree ;)


Thank you but in general I think people tend to overhype the idea of 'making it', or pursue arbitrary 'success' without even having a clear idea of what success really means to them (hence why many are disappointed after their big idea finally materializes), usually just because they have deep self-esteem issues, what matter isn't the fictional attention something is not getting but the actual one it's positively getting. Of course in theory the more people the cooler but sometimes everything just isn't for everyone and it's better to just do what you want (and usually that's when your actual qualities shine best, and how you get meaningful interactions with people). I'm not just completely satisfied, I'm genuinely thankful for any attention my works get because I never really expect them to speak to people in particular. This is a big reason why I keep sharing updates about my current project and whatnot, some people are into it so the least I can do is show some consideration back with news on the status and the occasional sharing here and there.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 19 October 2020 - 03:24 PM

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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • The Sarien Encounter

#49

View PostMark, on 19 October 2020 - 02:02 PM, said:

I'll have to download it and play again. I went back to my post in the release thread and saw that I commented on the keyboard control. I think that was an issue when I was going to help him with a couple of small things in the game. I couldn't test it properly because of keyboard movement I dislike and thus never got good at it.

EDIT: You have a choice of WASD or use the mouselook for direction but you still have to hold down W and S keys to move forward and backward. My oddball control configuration of choice for 25 years makes it too hard to adapt quickly to anything different. I use RMB and spacebar for those


Uhh...ah I see. That's....unconventional.
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User is offline   necroslut 

#50

Something I've noticed many times when an indie developer or smaller team makes a type/genre game they don't want to play (might be for commercial/popularity reasons, or because they wanted to draw spaceships or whatever), is that a lot of the time that means making something they don't really know or understand and subsequently make a lot of "noob mistakes", stepping into design traps that people solved years or even decades ago.
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