[mattjoes]

I arrived at this thread because I've been looking for what feels like ages for something like what the OP described: a fan-made episode that could be confused for an official expansion, or even the original game.

From what I've played, the closest I've found to that was the ADG episode, which is good fun.

I recently played through some of Downtown Journey, and that had a visual style that, while definitely more refined, still reminded me quite a bit of the original game. With some changes, I could see the bus station level appearing in the original game or an expansion. That said, the scale of the areas in the mapset is smaller than in the original episodes, so movement is quite restricted and the gameplay feels different.

I'm no one to be asking for things from the Duke community (I only made one space map many years ago, and deleted it without sharing it with anyone because I was a harsh critic of myself, even though it was okay in retrospect). But I would like to throw this idea out there, and maybe someone will say "hmph, you know, I'd like to work on that". Those of you who also play Doom will get this next reference. The idea is a mapset titled "Duke Nukem 3D - The Way 3D Realms Did".

One would have to think about what makes a map 3D Realms-style, which is an interesting exercise in and of itself. I suppose the scale of the map is never too big, and it should be beatable within, say, 20 to 30 minutes by an average player. The map should have a sense of interconnectedness, with doors and cracks on the walls allowing the player to return to previously visited areas. In offices and places like that, there should be some detailing to sell them as living, breathing places, but not so much that you're stopping to look at the furniture. In city maps, as mentioned in an earlier post, the idea would be to capture the feeling of a real-life place, rather than creating a realistic representation of it. Crucially, there is also a specific rhythm to the maps in the original game where, provided you are skilled enough, you feel like you are in an action scene from beginning to end, with a continuous flow of shootouts as you make your way through the map, interspersed with occasional "setpiece" moments, like a building being demolished, a reactor exploding or a bank vault opening. Puzzles, if any, are brief and simple, not there to make you think too hard, but to add some variety. Finally, city maps tend to focus on one building (a movie theater, sushi restaurant, etc.), and those maps that have more than building are not too sprawling, and don't have too many different types of buildings.

I just wanted to share those thoughts and impressions, and hopefully motivate anyone to work on that style of level.

[Ninety-Six]

Fox, on 11 February 2022 - 09:21 AM, said:

the Water Bases episode from LR&WB.

I still disagree on this one. Weapon/ammo balancing is almost hostile, the atmosphere is strange, and the second half develops a fascination with long empty hallways.



Anyway, regarding the topic. One of the things that makes a DNtW3DRD (what a mouthful) difficult would be an artistic problem, I think. Even though the first three episodes use a lot of generic textures, the levels themselves still mostly revolve around level-specific themes. So short of new artwork that would suit the game's style, a project like that would generally have to stick to the original themes of a level, minus a handful that manage to find a creative way to use the old textures.

On that note, have you tried Metropolitan Mayhem? If you liked ADG, MM will probably also be your speed. It tries to emulate the 3DR aesthetic a bit more. It's not down to a science the same way DTWiD was, and the maps are shorter (slightly longer than ADG's I'd say), but it does a good job for what it sets out to do. It even has a shining example of what can be done with vanilla textures outside of vanilla themes: Dukenpark. My advice is to not judge the whole pack by the first two levels; everything after that is more original.



That said. In my opinion, that's not quite the right question to be asking. I don't think it's down to aesthetics or the ins-and-outs of vanilla level design that necessarily define what could be confused for an official episode. It's more of a spirit, or a general vibe. After all, even the original game wasn't super congruent (E4 has a different tone and the expansions just kinda did their own thing, to say nothing of episode 5). Still, there are common elements that can be boiled down.

To that end, I recommend DNF2013, especially the Community DLC which breaks the conventions of what came before and creates more original layouts (last two levels in particular). I also strongly recommend Alien Armageddon, which does feel like what a new solid Duke Nukem game should be. You should also keep an eye on Duke Smoochem, an in-development episode that basically feels like what would have happened if The Birth was made by brits, and is going above and beyond when it comes to interactive elements.

[Merlijn]

mattjoes, on 11 February 2022 - 08:04 AM, said:

But I would like to throw this idea out there, and maybe someone will say "hmph, you know, I'd like to work on that". Those of you who also play Doom will get this next reference. The idea is a mapset titled "Duke Nukem 3D - The Way 3D Realms Did".

One would have to think about what makes a map 3D Realms-style, which is an interesting exercise in and of itself. I suppose the scale of the map is never too big, and it should be beatable within, say, 20 to 30 minutes by an average player. The map should have a sense of interconnectedness, with doors and cracks on the walls allowing the player to return to previously visited areas. In offices and places like that, there should be some detailing to sell them as living, breathing places, but not so much that you're stopping to look at the furniture. In city maps, as mentioned in an earlier post, the idea would be to capture the feeling of a real-life place, rather than creating a realistic representation of it. Crucially, there is also a specific rhythm to the maps in the original game where, provided you are skilled enough, you feel like you are in an action scene from beginning to end, with a continuous flow of shootouts as you make your way through the map, interspersed with occasional "setpiece" moments, like a building being demolished, a reactor exploding or a bank vault opening. Puzzles, if any, are brief and simple, not there to make you think too hard, but to add some variety. Finally, city maps tend to focus on one building (a movie theater, sushi restaurant, etc.), and those maps that have more than building are not too sprawling, and don't have too many different types of buildings.

I just wanted to share those thoughts and impressions, and hopefully motivate anyone to work on that style of level.

One big hurdle for such a mapset is that it will need to have some new art work, so the mappers can explore locations that were not covered in the original game. Otherwise you'll just end up replicating the same movie theaters, sushi restaurants etc. Of course dozens of user maps managed to go into new places through creative use of the vanilla assets. But that would already move things away from the '3DR style".

EDIT: also my Shaky Grounds episode is finished and out now, for those who missed it. But I think it deviates too much from the original game to apply here.

[Aleks]

I think Shaky Grounds would definitely fit in as "official expansion", but it all comes down to criteria I guess. It explores a single story from start to finish, the levels keep a natural continuity, everything has a strong theme of location, the maps are of similar length, most of the time, the layouts are clear (IIRC even keeps the 3 keycard per level) and gives the player a strong sense of progression and heading to a goal. Also there's just enough backstory and lore for a Duke game.

Metropolitan Mayhem felt very user-mappy in my opinion, even if the purpose was different. I've found a lot more consistency and "3DRism" in Duke Hard, ADG Episode is definitely also a good mention. I also think that Lost Highway by Kucera and Cerovsky also had a strong 3DR feeling, especially when it comes to aesthetics. Of course it also had quite some shortcomings, but the balance was quite fair too.

[Ninety-Six]

Aleks, on 12 February 2022 - 03:15 AM, said:

I also think that Lost Highway by Kucera and Cerovsky also had a strong 3DR feeling, especially when it comes to aesthetics.

I agree for the first half. The second half, starting with the dam level, the secret level, and the finale, not so much.

[mattjoes]

On the subject of textures, you are right, to portray new types of locations you would need new textures. In the case of this game, I would say creating new textures would not go against the spirit of a "The Way 3D Realms Did" project, provided the look of those new textures was consistent with that of the original ones. I suppose if 3D Realms had made more maps, they would have come up with textures for them as needed (and in fact, they have done that).

I haven't played Metropolitan Mayhem myself, as I when I checked it out in a video, I was a bit put off by the fact several of its maps appeared to be remakes of maps from the original game. But I'll take another look at it, same with the other projects. I have played DNF2013 and I love it.

Ninety-Six, on 11 February 2022 - 04:33 PM, said:

That said. In my opinion, that's not quite the right question to be asking. I don't think it's down to aesthetics or the ins-and-outs of vanilla level design that necessarily define what could be confused for an official episode. It's more of a spirit, or a general vibe. After all, even the original game wasn't super congruent (E4 has a different tone and the expansions just kinda did their own thing, to say nothing of episode 5). Still, there are common elements that can be boiled down.

I'd be curious to know more about this vibe you mention, and what variations you feel there were in E4 and the expansions compared to the base game. To me, the expansions feel pretty consistent with the original game, with the most significant difference perhaps having to do with the scale of some levels like Smithsonian Terror. But I admit I haven't given it a great amount of thought.

[Merlijn]

Metropolitan Mayhem is one of those cases where the whole is more than the sum of its parts. The quality of the maps is pretty uneven at times, and yes some of them are just replicas of the originals.
But the whole thing flows really well as an episode, it's fun to play in 1 go. It pretty much abandons the '3DR style' towards the end though.

[Aleks]

I'm not sure if new textures would work, at least for me, for the "3DR" feeling. After so much time, I've grown too familiar and fond of the original textures from Duke, which are quite unique and to be honest, I haven't really seen any TC that would match them in terms of style and consistency. The new textures in Duke DC worked, but there was mostly just a few of them, same with Caribbean, but even World Tour feels off in that department.

Quote

I agree for the first half. The second half, starting with the dam level, the secret level, and the finale, not so much.

I wouldn't divide it like that. Maybe only the secret level felt a bit off, but then this is kinda how secret levels in Duke always worked, being more surreal/different than original game. Also, this vibe is probably strongest for me in the 1st, 3rd and final maps of the episode. The dam level is quite large in scale and there's few unintuitional stuff in it, but then it doesn't venture much from the first experience I've had with e.g. Toxic Dump.

...did we mention Mikko's maps here yet?

[Ninety-Six]

mattjoes, on 12 February 2022 - 06:32 AM, said:

I haven't played Metropolitan Mayhem myself, as I when I checked it out in a video, I was a bit put off by the fact several of its maps appeared to be remakes of maps from the original game. But I'll take another look at it, same with the other projects. I have played DNF2013 and I love it.

Like I said, it gets more original after the first two levels. There are one or two more "remakes" in the rest of the pack, but one of them (Sex City) I'd say actually does a better job of representing the original level theme than its vanilla counterpart (just less than half the level actually took place in the porn studio, and there was only like one set).

mattjoes, on 12 February 2022 - 06:32 AM, said:

I'd be curious to know more about this vibe you mention, and what variations you feel there were in E4 and the expansions compared to the base game. To me, the expansions feel pretty consistent with the original game, with the most significant difference perhaps having to do with the scale of some levels like Smithsonian Terror. But I admit I haven't given it a great amount of thought.

Unfortunately the vibe is not the easiest thing to put to words. There are elements, such as the occasional (or not-so-occasional) pop-culture references, the interactive objects, and for Duke 3D specifically the ability to construct recognizable locations. But I don't think just having them is enough.

It's...an attitude. A particular style and approach to game and level design that, while it often doesn't break a ton of new ground, still exudes a personality that is distinctly Duke Nukem (I mean the brand itself, not the character, though the character often represents those same elements). One that doesn't apologize for anything and does what it wants, reflecting the same ubermacho traits of the main character.

It's not Duke 3D, but the best example of what Duke Nukem as a brand can mean for a game is, in my opinion, Manhattan Project. At its core, Manhattan Project is just a simple 2.5D platformer. It's got solid level design and gameplay, but nothing inherently special or amazing. I'm not knocking the game, mind, only stating that purely at its core it doesn't do anything new. It was a budget mid-2000s PC game, and had no illusions of otherwise. But amidst all that, you have Duke Nukem, and the series' core identity. You have the gratuitous violence, babes with ridiculous jiggle physics, you have a very comic book-y plot involving mutants, you get shrinkers and de-mutators, you have health represented by ego, and actually plays like ego because you get more ego (so, more health) by doing cool things like doing flying kicks into an enemy's face.

You take what would otherwise be a typical but solid platforming game, and inject so much personality that it even starts to affect the game design. It elevates the game into the near-cult classic status it has today, being a fan-favorite entry. And even in Duke's two older games before Duke 3D, before the lean into more mature content... shades of these elements, and that personality, was still there. DN1 was aping Commander Keen, but did so in a way that was unique to it, still with that comic book flair. DN2 was more DN1, but it injected a lot more of the ridiculous testosterone-overdose action, as well as giving Duke more of that famous egotistical personality he became known for. This is also where DNF faltered a bit. It had a lot of those core elements, but they weren't fit together properly. As a result, the tone didn't marry the darkness and the goofiness like its predecessors, Duke's character personality was off, it didn't really make the games it was aping its own, etc.

I wish I could go into more detail about the specific combination to create that Duke vibe, but words fail me here. It's really more a case of you either have that spirit, or you don't.



As for the variations, Episodes 1-3 are definitely a lot darker and have more of a "laughing through gritted teeth" thing going on. Duke's commentary on the levels themselves are relegated mostly to secret easter eggs, and the jokes within the levels themselves are very few and a lot more subtle. In episode 4, Duke talks a lot more, and the jokes and references are more in your face. By contrast, DC is a lot more like the original three episodes, but now without the mid-level commentary or those referential easter eggs. DC is really more about...well, DC, and exploring the famous landmarks. Nuclear Winter is basically at about the same level as the Birth, just with a christmas theme. Caribbean barely has any references at all, but it does have Duke talk about as much as The Birth, just now more about what's happening in the levels themselves. It doesn't have really any of the underlying darkness that was still present in E4, but given the tropical theme that's appropriate. And lastly AWO is more like Caribbean, though it has a few more shades of darkness. Not many, though.

[NNC]

Aleks, on 12 February 2022 - 10:52 AM, said:

I'm not sure if new textures would work, at least for me, for the "3DR" feeling. After so much time, I've grown too familiar and fond of the original textures from Duke, which are quite unique and to be honest, I haven't really seen any TC that would match them in terms of style and consistency. The new textures in Duke DC worked, but there was mostly just a few of them, same with Caribbean, but even World Tour feels off in that department.

I wouldn't divide it like that. Maybe only the secret level felt a bit off, but then this is kinda how secret levels in Duke always worked, being more surreal/different than original game. Also, this vibe is probably strongest for me in the 1st, 3rd and final maps of the episode. The dam level is quite large in scale and there's few unintuitional stuff in it, but then it doesn't venture much from the first experience I've had with e.g. Toxic Dump.

...did we mention Mikko's maps here yet?

I actually think the secret level is one of the best in Lost Highway, and it felt 3DRish to me but with a new theme (exactly what this thread is about).

[duke3d.exe]

Shaky Grounds could be a modern commercial release like 20th Anniversary was, but it lacks at least an extra secret map and ideally a new proper enemy+weapon+boss. That always adds a nice extra touch of novelty, but I know how hard it is to get that right. Atomic edition added a perfect new enemy + boss that fits in well within the Duke 3d design and that was pretty much the last and only time that happened. The new gun was basically the opposite of the shrinker with the same texture but works well, the flamethrower was a bit out of place, and the firefly enemy looks like out of Tekwar or other game, final boss is just a red cyclops. So like I said The Birth is still to me the best new episode commercial or user release.

[Merlijn]

duke3d.exe, on 18 February 2022 - 08:20 PM, said:

Shaky Grounds could be a modern commercial release like 20th Anniversary was, but it lacks at least an extra secret map and ideally a new proper enemy+weapon+boss. That always adds a nice extra touch of novelty, but I know how hard it is to get that right.

Thanks! I had plans for a secret level, but felt that it would mess with the pacing of the episode too much (that's the thing when you're implementing a moving storyline, there has to be forward momentum and a sense of urgency). Perhaps I'll go back and add a secret map anyway, somewhere down the line. As for new enemies, ck3d's Blast Radius project is going that route so it will be interesting to see how that will play out.