[Balls of Steel Forever]

Cartaphilus, on 24 July 2020 - 01:43 PM, said:

Lol, my first post on the internet was on a Blood forum. Bugger off. I never really went on 3DR so I can't verify what goes on there (ck3d clearly has a different take), but if these are the people they banned, it can't have been that bad.

I know I've made fun of you Dan, but for the record, I'd let you moderate any forum I ran and give you free reign. The fact that you can't just do whatever you want, given that you're clearly more intelligent and more productive than most members of Duke4, I see as disrespectful towards you frankly. Most of the other admins just sit by the sidelines while you do the lion's share of actual moderating.

Clearly you wouldn't go on a ban-rampage either way.

The problem with the smart people is they're full of self doubt. The opposite would be someone like Jimmy, who is a prime example of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action.

Your moral compass is so near rock bottom that you want us to turn against each other, and brown nose the only moderator who gives you any form of time of day.

You're more of an attention whore then I am.

God be with you.

Cartaphilus, on 24 July 2020 - 02:18 PM, said:

I'm a part-Jewish dude who lost family members in the holocaust.

This idea that you are owed something because of something that happened to you or your family is fucked up.

No one deserves anything or is owed anything unless certain parties are involved and there's an agreement between such parties.

There is no agreement verbal or otherwise on how people treat you, there is no agreement on how you treat them.

I'm sure that if anyone was able to do legitimate harm on this forum they would be punished.

No one here has promised legitimate harm physical or otherwise as far as I know. Attacks on ideology, yes, idiot based opinions, yes, belittling others, yes, but you are as much a perpetrator of such as anyone else, and you shouldn't judge others or act holier than thou because of that.

And this is coming from someone that only has 27 members left in their family.

Cartaphilus, on 24 July 2020 - 02:18 PM, said:

Have fun "tying yourself in knots". How hard your life must be.

Do not pretend you know what a difficult life is.

Today I learned that I may not be able to drive anymore as cars are completely missing where others can see them.

However my life is not harder then yours or dan's for that matter it is just different.

You have to realize that you are just as valuable a life as jimmy.

The day you realize that is the day you become more complete as a person.

[Forge]

Cartaphilus, on 24 July 2020 - 12:58 PM, said:

Sure, keep some of the sacred cows like Forge and Wieder then. They might leave on their own accord or fall into decent behavior once steps are taken to curb some of the more egregious rhetoric.

My behavior has been decent.
You editorialized bastard when describing what you were called. I never called you a bastard.
If anything, you've been quite insulting and derogatory towards me, but your bait was cheap.

I also never denied the holocaust.
Maybe some jokes in bad taste, or mocking someone who uses it as a crutch.

and for the record, I'm not a gamer gate denier either. Bitch sold sex to buy publicity, then cried wolf when all the mean men from the men's only club called her and the cuck journo out on it.

[PokeThePower]

/Defiatron\, on 24 July 2020 - 12:37 PM, said:

...which doesn't make them shenanigans at all, really.

Evil shenanigans!

[Jimmy]

I swear to God I'll pistol whip the next guy who says "Shenanigans."

[DevoNukem]

/Defiatron\, on 24 July 2020 - 02:33 PM, said:

I swear to God I'll pistol whip the next guy who says "Shenanigans."

Well.......

ShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigans
ShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigans
ShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigans
ShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigans
Shenanigans
ShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigans
ShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigansShenanigans

uhh, it's going out of the box.

[Forge]

that was easy

[Jimmy]

We didn't even have to trick him into telling us his favourite restaurant.

[Radar]

Did thricecursed seriously just play the Jew card.

[Danukem]

Cartaphilus, on 24 July 2020 - 02:18 PM, said:

Dan. I was gonna send this privately, but what does it matter anymore.

I'm a part-Jewish dude who lost family members in the holocaust. Sorry, but holocaust denial is where I draw the line.

If anyone around here straight-up denied the Holocaust, they would be gone, and fuck you for smearing us and making it sound otherwise. Holocaust deniers are evil pieces of shit. But even in the realm of holocaust denial, there are different places one can draw the line. Your standard is very strict, isn't it? If someone makes a vague statement that leads you to believe they might be a denier, then you want them gone. If someone thinks that the historical accounts are only 95% accurate and not 100% accurate, you want them gone. Hey, I'm not deriding you for that; it is absolutely your right to apply that strict standard whenever you are in charge of a forum, and given your background I do not blame you at all. You are right that there have to be some limits on freedom of speech, but don't call me a hypocrite because I draw the line in a different place. The expedient thing to do, in almost every case, is to censor points of view that one disagrees with and censor points of view that can get one into trouble. If I were one to "back down" out of weakness as you think, then I would act expediently.

[PokeThePower]

R A D A Я, on 24 July 2020 - 03:36 PM, said:

Did thricecursed seriously just play the Jew card.

[PokeThePower]

Cartaphilus, on 24 July 2020 - 12:58 PM, said:

Sure, keep some of the sacred cows like Forge and Wieder then.

I specifically prefer to be low key and open for criticism and ridicule by anyone else here and get it plenty hard, often by people who have no idea I'd even read what they have to say. That's one of the main reasons I like it here... just another jackass on the internet surrounded by a lot of people that I enjoy learning from and butting heads with.

You're the one that keeps trying to turn me into something I'm not, and projecting something on me that is almost universally not shared by the other people here.

[Danukem]

So am I supposed to challenge that video posting now or remove it on the grounds that it is insensitive to the families of holocaust victims or to the victims of actual anti-semitism? What kind of case would someone make along those lines... I guess they would say that the video gives comfort to holocaust deniers and anti-semites by promoting the idea that claims of holocaust denial or anti-semitism are made falsely. Yep, I get it. But the thing is, we know that sometimes such claims are false. That does nothing to detract from the reality of the holocaust or undermine the seriousness of actual anti-semitism. Maybe some bad people do take comfort in that video, but they shouldn't, and it's not our fault if they do. So when a video like that is allowed to stand uncontested, is that one of the things that thricecursed holds against me/us? Is that supposed to make me a hypocrite somehow? I honestly don't know.

[Radar]

Honestly even I don't agree with that video. Israeli aggression on its borders is justified just as American aggression on its borders is justified. It's not their fault we cucked out on our border wall yet they have a sweet one.

[PokeThePower]

Trooper Dan, on 24 July 2020 - 07:20 PM, said:

So am I supposed to challenge that video posting now or remove it...

Censoring a video of a person saying things that makes the cultural majority with institutional privilege upset sounds like it would be pretty anti-something to me.

R A D A Я, on 24 July 2020 - 07:38 PM, said:

Honestly even I don't agree with that video. Israeli aggression on its borders is justified just as American aggression on its borders is justified. It's not their fault we cucked out on our border wall yet they have a sweet one.

I don't entirely disagree with your disagreement.

However contemplating the purpose behind raising the specter (threat) of declaring someone anti-something and its actual accuracy about the motivations of a person with criticisms/concerns/doubts holds regardless of opinions on specific walls and borders and who has a right to specific plots of land.

[Hank]

Trooper Dan, on 24 July 2020 - 07:20 PM, said:

So am I supposed to challenge that video posting now or remove it on the grounds that it is insensitive to the families of holocaust victims or to the victims of actual anti-semitism?
>> cut

since this is now a different thread ...

This was not the point of this short video, as per my limited IQ interpretation.
The point is that if you criticize Israel you are automatically stamped an Anti-Semitic. This 'trick' is used by many interest groups, not just Israel.

However, under the current toxic social media environment, posting this video will definitely place you into the Anti-Semitic group.
You can't win.

[Danukem]

Hank, on 24 July 2020 - 07:55 PM, said:

This was not the point of this short video, as per my limited IQ interpretation.
The point is that if you criticize Israel you are automatically stamped an Anti-Semitic. This 'trick' is used by many interest groups, not just Israel.

However, under the current toxic social media environment, posting this video will definitely place you into the Anti-Semitic group.
You can't win.

I do get it. I was asking the question in reference to what thricecursed said, that he "draws the line at holocaust denial". When someone puts it like that, it sounds very reasonable. Only a monster could argue with that, right? But I know from experience that drawing a line is never that simple. What if someone fully accepts the fact of the holocaust, but challenges details in a specific account of a specific survivor? They might have a bad motive for doing so, or maybe they have reason to believe that a specific person is a fraud and want to set the record straight. I know of no such example, this is purely hypothetical. Nevertheless, it would be a grave mistake to ban all such discourse. But what if someone challenges several different accounts? What if they say that 10% of them are phony? Is there some specific point at which it automatically becomes hate speech? These kinds of questions quickly lead to absurdity, which is one reason I tend to err on the side of free speech. Thrice himself called me a racist cunt at one point simply because I pointed out that different cultures have differing views on the roles of women and that could impact survey results. So if one were to "draw the line at racism" on his forum, then evidently such an observation about cultural differences would be out of bounds and banworthy. And he expects me to trust his judgment? Ridiculous.

[MusicallyInspired]

If reading through this thread has taught me anything it's that I don't agree with everything everyone says, I like some people's personalities more than others, I can still get along with most of them, and I can say what I want and know that all I'll get back at worst is a discussion that challenges my stances and makes me think harder about why I believe what I believe. I may not change my mind or anyone else's sometimes but I have been enriched and bettered for having had said discussion. These are the people I respect more than anyone else regardless of aforementioned points. These are people of integrity. The ones who fling insults out of pure hatred, cause division, and suck up to the authority at the same time are not worth my time to worry about.

So, in other words, just like real life should be. I thank God that this place exists as it does because there's so little of normal life left on the internet. In many ways this place stands as a last bastion of hope for me that the future won't be a totally subjugated and brainwashed society with no way back. That people still believe that other people are smart and can think for themselves and don't need to be guided or corrected to make up their own minds. I see so much of that everywhere I go online.

Leaving this place is crazy to me and anyone that chooses to, well...it's their loss in a myriad of ways. They can leave if they want to but I'll never feel bad about being a part of this place.

And Dan, I appreciate everything you do here truly as well as your decision to not leave. (And if I had a forum you could run it anytime. )

[Hank]

Trooper Dan, on 24 July 2020 - 08:48 PM, said:

I do get it. I was asking the question in reference to what thricecursed said, that he "draws the line at holocaust denial". When someone puts it like that, it sounds very reasonable. Only a monster could argue with that, right? But I know from experience that drawing a line is never that simple. What if someone fully accepts the fact of the holocaust, but challenges details in a specific account of a specific survivor? They might have a bad motive for doing so, or maybe they have reason to believe that a specific person is a fraud and want to set the record straight. I know of no such example, this is purely hypothetical. Nevertheless, it would be a grave mistake to ban all such discourse. But what if someone challenges several different accounts? What if they say that 10% of them are phony? Is there some specific point at which it automatically becomes hate speech? These kinds of questions quickly lead to absurdity, which is one reason I tend to err on the side of free speech. Thrice himself called me a racist cunt at one point simply because I pointed out that different cultures have differing views on the roles of women and that could impact survey results. So if one were to "draw the line at racism" on his forum, then evidently such an observation about cultural differences would be out of bounds and banworthy. And he expects me to trust his judgment? Ridiculous.

Ah. Unlike you, I ignored most of his posts, except when he quoted myself. My bad.

[Danukem]

@MusicallyInspired I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be saying those nice things about the forum if your experience here largely consisted of getting into fights and being called a commie, cuck, moron etc.

Don't get me wrong -- it's good to hear that you like it here, and it's interesting that some respectable non-toxic people like yourself, ck3d, and Ninety-Six who don't post much about politics, enjoy the forum for what it is. Meanwhile, there are also many respectable people out there who do not want to be anywhere near this forum. Their loss? Our loss?

When I think of this forum, I'm reminded of that scene in SW where Obi Wan says "Mos Eisley Spaceport. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." It can be a rough place, and sometimes someone loses an arm. But the band plays on.

[PokeThePower]

Trooper Dan, on 24 July 2020 - 10:53 PM, said:

...and sometimes someone loses an arm.

Except they don't. Someone doesn't even get spittle on their face or their ear drums blown out by screaming. They are exposed to nothing more than ideas and perspectives. That can be read at their own pace. Or skipped entirely. It's the most mild form of "conflict" exchange humanity has to offer. You don't even have to endure the other person's voice or facial expressions (well except Jimmy's when other people post them).

It is a crime against humanity how much we've robbed people of the belief and practice of control over how those ideas make them feel. Unlike being physically attacked or the other forms of attacks intended to cause harm and damage but aren't physically violent that have become popular in recent years. This move to disempower people to such a weak worm-like state of emotional responsibility is promoted by people who have the exact opposite of good intentions for the people who buy into it.

Cultural change is not an ever upward progression to better and better... we have been in retrograde for quite some time now and the full consequences are openly playing out. Thankfully it's being extensively recorded so we stand a much better chance of not repeating this cycle. Though knowing humanity, especially humanity without God as the guiding principle, we'll just repeat it in an ever more spectacularly ironic and obscenity worshiping fashion.

[Hank]

RunRonRun, on 24 July 2020 - 11:16 PM, said:

Except they don't. Someone doesn't even get spittle on their face or their ear drums blown out by screaming. They are exposed to nothing more than ideas and perspectives. That can be read at their own pace. Or skipped entirely. It's the most mild form of "conflict" exchange humanity has to offer. You don't even have to endure the other person's voice or facial expressions (well except Jimmy's when other people post them).

It is a crime against humanity how much we've robbed people of the belief and practice of control over how those ideas make them feel. Unlike being physically attacked or the other forms of attacks intended to cause harm and damage but aren't physically violent that have become popular in recent years. This move to disempower people to such a weak worm-like state of emotional responsibility is promoted by people who have the exact opposite of good intentions for the people who buy into it.

Cultural change is not an ever upward progression to better and better... we have been in retrograde for quite some time now and the full consequences are openly playing out. Thankfully it's being extensively recorded so we stand a much better chance of not repeating this cycle. Though knowing humanity, especially humanity without God as the guiding principle, we'll just repeat it in an ever more spectacularly ironic and obscenity worshiping fashion.

There is phrase, the pen is mightier than the sword. Words can hurt as much as an uppercut.

And what you post can get you fired.
https://reclaimthene...es-matter-meme/

I do miss going to my pub and do the save-the-world-arguments in person, but for as long as we are encouraged to stay away from each other, this has to do.

[Jimmy]

Trooper Dan, on 24 July 2020 - 10:53 PM, said:

@MusicallyInspired I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be saying those nice things about the forum if your experience here largely consisted of getting into fights and being called a commie, cuck, moron etc.

Don't get me wrong -- it's good to hear that you like it here, and it's interesting that some respectable non-toxic people like yourself, ck3d, and Ninety-Six who don't post much about politics, enjoy the forum for what it is. Meanwhile, there are also many respectable people out there who do not want to be anywhere near this forum. Their loss? Our loss?

When I think of this forum, I'm reminded of that scene in SW where Obi Wan says "Mos Eisley Spaceport. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." It can be a rough place, and sometimes someone loses an arm. But the band plays on.

Isn't the music fuckin' great too?

I'm much reminded of the punk scene in the 70s. You'd be just as likely to get a free beer or joint from some skid as you would a free whack across the head from some dumb lumbering oaf.

[Danukem]

/Defiatron\, on 25 July 2020 - 01:49 AM, said:

Isn't the music fuckin' great too?

I'm much reminded of the punk scene in the 70s. You'd be just as likely to get a free beer or joint from some skid as you would a free whack across the head from some dumb lumbering oaf.

I appreciate the adventuresome spirit more than you think (hence my example) but I'm not fond of the dumb oaf whacks and they do tend to drive away some otherwise fine patrons with more delicate sensibilities.

Speaking of the 70s, my personal preference for political discourse more resembles Firing Line with William F Buckley than a raucous punk pub (i.e. I prefer that the violence of arguments be cloaked in civility rather than crude and ineffective insults). However, both are preferable to what passes for discourse in the modern age. In the modern age, we sit in the pews of a Church. We sit and listen to the sermon. We nod. And we do not speak heresy. Fuck church.

[ck3D]

Trooper Dan, on 25 July 2020 - 02:03 AM, said:

Speaking of the 70s, my personal preference for political discourse more resembles Firing Line with William F Buckley than a raucous punk pub (i.e. I prefer that the violence of arguments be cloaked in civility rather than crude and ineffective insults).

Just a lighthearted observation - there is civility (and brains) amidst the punk scene too. If curious and/or bored enough, I'd recommend reading 'Punk Manifesto' by Greg Graffin (singer-songwriter, multi-instrumentalist, college lecturer, evolutionary biologist, zoologist, and author). The whole essay is a Google search away, available online from various sources; the commentary on responsible voting at the end feels a bit outdated these days but overall it remains a cool read that can shatter some clichés if one lets it (although I think you're too intelligent for most clichés already - which actually is what leads me to think you might be into it).

[MusicallyInspired]

Trooper Dan, on 24 July 2020 - 10:53 PM, said:

Meanwhile, there are also many respectable people out there who do not want to be anywhere near this forum. Their loss? Our loss?

Trooper Dan, on 25 July 2020 - 02:03 AM, said:

In the modern age, we sit in the pews of a Church. We sit and listen to the sermon. We nod. And we do not speak heresy.

Both, but this is why I truly believe it's their greater loss ultimately. In my opinion it's essential for people to be challenged on their ideas more and learn how to formulate effective arguments. And to learn to not let things they can't change bother them. It is not important for Jimmy to agree with someone. In fact it's vital that he does not. He's positively rough around the edges but he's not really a threat to anyone. Just their egos. And worrying what others think of a place you frequent because of some troll is terribly sad to me. As is acting like he owns the place. But to each their own. I believe some great Build conversations do happen here and often and Jimmy or Radar existing takes nothing at all from that.

People have too many caveats and conditions for their happiness and peace of mind these days that involve other people and that's just too fearful or too controlling to me. The insults here are just kind of a screening to make sure you're prepared enough. They legitimately do not bother me. I wouldn't use them, but so what? This place doesn't revolve around me. They can just as easily be ignored. For the weak-hearted, you either get people who just shy away entirely because they're afraid of confrontation or don't like dissenting opinions, or the people who stoop to unimaginably low levels (lower than said insults) to spew their venom and hatred for another person because that's what they think the opposing side is doing when they're not. I don't really believe Jimmy truly hates anybody and wants to see anyone suffer or die whereas I have my doubts about others. (please correct me if I'm wrong lol)

[Forge]

*demands certain threads or members be permanently removed
*refuses to stay out of the offending threads, or from engaging the distasteful individuals from one end of the website to the other
*cries that the entire forum is a toxic wasteland

[Morpheus Kitami]

The problem with the idea that this forum is dead because of the Outhouse crew is stupid. As I alluded to before the thread split, there ARE other forums about Duke Nukem. They are as lively as this one. Further, there's nothing stopping Thricecursed/Cartaphlius/"Wandering Jew" (try using that username on another forum) from starting a thread on Duke on ResetEra or whatever other white supremacy forums he uses. The problem there will be as the problem here, there's nothing new to talk about on the Duke himself. Its like, if it isn't someone who worked on it being a creep, someone's getting sued. On other forums there isn't exactly a map a week either. Anyone who can't withstand a giant ass like Jimmy or Radar isn't going to be making a map for Duke, just as surely as most people here wouldn't make a map for H.U.R.L. outside of novelty.
I mean, I say this, but its clear that the guy is only going to be here until someone bans his ass.
Also, you can get people together for a community project here. On a game-making forum I'm on, we can't even scrap up four people to make a short game. People are that consumed by their own ego there. Here? In a topic dedicated to Mr. Banbait, there's legitimate talk of making a new project. Yeah, Duke sure is dead.

[Danukem]

Since we are all getting along so well now, maybe I should change the thread title to "Circle Jerk of Hate Speech" in honor of thricecursed.

[Sledgehammer]

Cartaphilus, on 23 July 2020 - 04:44 AM, said:

Having to very carefully choose your words to avoid attacks? Walk on eggshells, as it were. Because that happens everywhere that you allow belligerent assholes have free reign.

Greatest description of how modern societies work.

[Danukem]

Morpheus Kitami, on 25 July 2020 - 07:28 AM, said:

Also, you can get people together for a community project here. On a game-making forum I'm on, we can't even scrap up four people to make a short game. People are that consumed by their own ego there. Here? In a topic dedicated to Mr. Banbait, there's legitimate talk of making a new project. Yeah, Duke sure is dead.

True enough. We have seen the death of vanilla user maps (with some very recent and notable exceptions), but Eduke32 projects are alive and well. Thing is, they are big projects that take a lot of time to develop so they don't get releases all that often.