Dark Side's Blue Key Card Door
#1 Posted 20 July 2020 - 06:19 AM
I wonder what the devs thought when they put this door in here. Why in a world...it just doesn't make sense when you passby card slot in a random hallway. It almost looks like they couldn't figure out how to make way to the upper sections of the level, so they went with this stupid door that almost makes it look like a secret area and doesn't look very professional in my opinion. Maybe they just don't have enough space or time or any other reason but I don't think it's the case since Dark Side is one of earliest levels made for the game. Still, despite this minor curio it's one of the best maps ever.
And yes, I know that there's a similar "door in a hallway" in Lunar Reactor, but there you can clearly see what's going to open.
So what do you think?
#2 Posted 20 July 2020 - 07:22 AM
#3 Posted 20 July 2020 - 07:38 AM
This was likely done to allow a showcase of SOS.
Maybe they got so used to it over the years that it just didn't seem that off anymore.
#4 Posted 20 July 2020 - 08:11 AM
#6 Posted 20 July 2020 - 05:07 PM
#8 Posted 21 July 2020 - 01:25 AM
This post has been edited by /Defiatron\: 21 July 2020 - 01:27 AM
#9 Posted 21 July 2020 - 07:14 AM
Ninety-Six, on 20 July 2020 - 07:10 PM, said:
Assuming you're responding to me: Freeway as a level is entirely an SOS exploit. All potential visual glitches are concealed by the tight corridor you walk through between freeways.
#10 Posted 23 July 2020 - 12:23 AM
#11 Posted 23 July 2020 - 08:45 AM
R A D A Я, on 21 July 2020 - 07:14 AM, said:
Freeway is even easymode (Only two layers that need to be stacked), derelict must have been a nightmare to make with the tools they had.
Imagine having to stack all those layers just to playtest each time.. Even with better tools on Ion Fury it was kind of annoying at first.
#12 Posted 23 July 2020 - 09:05 AM
The fact that they pulled this off without creating visual glitches is pretty remarkable. Must have taken some time to get all the sectors lined up just right.
It's one of those things you start to appreciate once you understand how the engine works.
(of course, it was quickly rendered obsolute once true 3D engines took over, but still..)
#14 Posted 23 July 2020 - 01:08 PM
#15 Posted 23 July 2020 - 01:51 PM
High Treason, on 23 July 2020 - 01:08 PM, said:
I still can't believe how bad vanilla Quake 2 looks. Worst looking engine ever.
#16 Posted 23 July 2020 - 02:15 PM
Sanek, on 20 July 2020 - 06:19 AM, said:
And yes, I know that there's a similar "door in a hallway" in Lunar Reactor, but there you can clearly see what's going to open.
On a related note, have you ever noticed in pre-release screenshots from Lunar Reactor that there used to be an identical door directly across from it? It contained a set of stairs that led upward to a small room that was connected to the ventilation shafts in the ceiling. I'm kinda disappointed they removed it.
#17 Posted 23 July 2020 - 07:42 PM
Merlijn, on 23 July 2020 - 09:05 AM, said:
It's one of those things you start to appreciate once you understand how the engine works.
I've always considered that structure a gold standard example of classic style SOS usage. Its subtlety and texture choices combine to draw your eye in without becoming a gimmick.
oasiz, on 23 July 2020 - 08:45 AM, said:
Imagine having to stack all those layers just to playtest each time.. Even with better tools on Ion Fury it was kind of annoying at first.
For Wavemistress and Airplane I had to keep a running series of saves in case I accidentally saved the combined version over my latest because once they were combined there was no going back. I definitely lost a few hours of work a couple of times due to that. I got out of the habit of using normal saves and always Save As with an increment on the number, and a specific filename intended only for the combined version.
Some folks work that way even with normal content where the risk is low, but I've only felt the pressing need for those two.
#18 Posted 24 July 2020 - 03:44 AM
ck3D, on 23 July 2020 - 12:23 AM, said:
I agree. Gotta give Derelict some credits as well, not only it's the only map in episode 4 which felt like a genuine work in the first 3 (or especially the first 2) episode style, but the way they did SOS and eventually the 3D atmosphere there was crazy.
And for Dark Side, slightly off topic, but just watch the shadows in the entire level (the beta version's map had been scanned into the WT thread, that's telling as well).... Blum was so clever, he put all the shadows against the angle of the sun seen in the sky! These kind of things put Duke way ahead of its Build competitors, including Blood, which lacks all of these stunning design elements.
EDIT: oasiz beat me with the Derelict reference.
This post has been edited by The Watchtower: 24 July 2020 - 03:46 AM
#19 Posted 24 July 2020 - 05:33 AM
RunRonRun, on 23 July 2020 - 07:42 PM, said:
For Wavemistress and Airplane I had to keep a running series of saves in case I accidentally saved the combined version over my latest because once they were combined there was no going back. I definitely lost a few hours of work a couple of times due to that. I got out of the habit of using normal saves and always Save As with an increment on the number, and a specific filename intended only for the combined version.
Some folks work that way even with normal content where the risk is low, but I've only felt the pressing need for those two.
That's interesting, same strategy as I used. Especially when there is zero tolerance for bugs with a "released product", it's extremely annoying since play testing versions always have to be created manually after fixing one bug or two. Some times build won't even automatically create red-walls so during testing you'd just encounter a solid wall despite the sectors overlapping.
I've had to re-separate my maps a few times after managing to mess up filenames so I know what you mean all too well. I have to say that I found the airplane, wavemistress, RR:RA maps and especially EP2 very inspiring when working on Fury SOS so good job on those two. I always try to push the limits
Trivia: I don't think this has been brought up but there is a reason why that hallway in dark side has those rotating cycling lights. Having done a lot of SOS, It's now obvious that it's done to "slice" sectors in to convenient bits so that the SOS parts don't overlap. This allows a rather nice rotating angle for the player and seeing only a tiny amount of overlapping sectors at the same time.
This is because the engine only cares two VISIBLE overlapping sectors at a time, it doesn't cull based on occluded view from a wall. You can confirm this by looking at the overlapping hallway, top-side, where no cycler exists but the sectors are still split to slices
This is what I like about clever design with SOS, turning a workaround in to a visual spectacle. Very cool and why I absolutely love pushing SOS work to it's limits.
#20 Posted 24 July 2020 - 01:55 PM
Somewhat related, but it's kinda neat how Blood's alpha has this one map where an overlapping area hasn't been dragged into place yet, or else has been dragged out.
#21 Posted 24 July 2020 - 06:36 PM
ck3D, on 23 July 2020 - 12:23 AM, said:
I think that's something that has been lost in the past few decades. Back in the 90s and up to around the mid-naughties (and technically the 80s too but I'm specifically referring to FPSes), a lot of games had limitations that informed design. Not just that, but a lot of games were also made to deliberately cheat their way around said limitations, which probably informed design a lot more.
As a result I personally think that was one of the key elements that made these old games so good. They threw themselves whole-hog into showing off as much as possible. Of course creating genuinely good levels was just as if not more important to these games' success, but still.
I think Duke 3D is a shining example of those cheats being on full display. They have this brand new engine that allows for almost genuine 3D spaces, and they decided applying it to more realistic locations while also marrying it to good level design to make exploring and battling in recognizable places essentially a core identity of Duke 3D. And we haven't really seen something like that since. Even the interactivity was there to demonstrate what they could come up with, and that has most definitely been lost in recent games since there's no reason to show it off anymore.
I don't wanna circlejerk here but I truly genuinely believe that a large part of that spirit lives on in this community, as creating believable places with technically more limitations (even though eduke raises the static map limits, most mappers are limited to stock assets only) is what you guys do.
#22 Posted 24 July 2020 - 07:20 PM
Ninety-Six, on 24 July 2020 - 06:36 PM, said:
Yeah. One of the more painful things about working on current games is the question is no longer "I wonder if I can..." and discovering creative ways to evoke feelings/experiences with limited tools that surprise people. There's literally nothing impossible now if you can afford the investment... which is cool enough on one hand to be that free... but creatively unsatisfying on the other. It's an entirely different form of craftsmanship and was inevitable.
There was a fairly magical window where games still straddled the line between books and movies... where books require you to still use your own imagination to project beyond what the exact words say and create a bigger mental image than literal arrangements of A-Z. Now games are literal (even the artistic/metaphor driven ones). Games aiming for retro styles aren't doing it to stimulate your imagination about "what could be" but instead tapping into nostalgia or just a purely aesthetic choice on the same page with choosing Black/White/Red film colors only.
This post has been edited by RunRonRun: 24 July 2020 - 07:47 PM
#23 Posted 24 July 2020 - 11:00 PM
This post has been edited by The Watchtower: 24 July 2020 - 11:00 PM