Duke4.net Forums: Dark Side's Blue Key Card Door - Duke4.net Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Dark Side's Blue Key Card Door

User is offline   Sanek 

#1

it's been bothering me for over 20 years. I can't be the only one!

I wonder what the devs thought when they put this door in here. Why in a world...it just doesn't make sense when you passby card slot in a random hallway. It almost looks like they couldn't figure out how to make way to the upper sections of the level, so they went with this stupid door that almost makes it look like a secret area and doesn't look very professional in my opinion. Maybe they just don't have enough space or time or any other reason but I don't think it's the case since Dark Side is one of earliest levels made for the game. Still, despite this minor curio it's one of the best maps ever.
And yes, I know that there's a similar "door in a hallway" in Lunar Reactor, but there you can clearly see what's going to open.

So what do you think?


Attached Image: duke0001.png
1

#2

It is an odd out of place set piece. I thought the N64 design handled this level better.
1

User is offline   oasiz 

  • Dr. Effector

#3

Older version had this one in unlocked form as well so it's not really a completely rushed design.
This was likely done to allow a showcase of SOS.

Maybe they got so used to it over the years that it just didn't seem that off anymore.
2

User is offline   NNC 

#4

Slighty off-topic, but I fucking love this level. It's so smooth and polished, the epitome of a good Duke Nukem level.
1

User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • The Sarien Encounter

#5

And excellent music.
1

User is offline   Radar 

  • King of SOVL

#6

My favorite level with my favorite song in the game. And yeah I always thought that elevator was weird too. It was probably added as a clean transition to all that SOS work up there.
0

User is offline   Ninety-Six 

#7

Didn't Freeway have a similar thing with its blue key door?
1

User is offline   Jimmy 

  • Let's go Brandon!

#8

Don't forget about multiplayer, I feel like sometimes that some design oddities might have had that in mind.

This post has been edited by /Defiatron\: 21 July 2020 - 01:27 AM

1

User is offline   Radar 

  • King of SOVL

#9

View PostNinety-Six, on 20 July 2020 - 07:10 PM, said:

Didn't Freeway have a similar thing with its blue key door?


Assuming you're responding to me: Freeway as a level is entirely an SOS exploit. All potential visual glitches are concealed by the tight corridor you walk through between freeways.
0

User is online   ck3D 

#10

There's just so much level design in the first three episodes (most especially) that's just pure experimentation and going nuts with the new possibilities of SOS and I love it. In a way with every new engine it's always a given that the devs are going to flash all the impressive new elements in the player's face, but in this case the new element was SOS which can't be demonstrated but by interesting layouts, conceptual enterprises and elaborate designs. We're kind of lucky the original level designers had so much fun with the feature as they did, it served as a good demonstration to the future fanbase of how abstract yet sophisticated levels could get with it. Duh-level observation as the Build engine was especially notorious for that feature but one that's still worth celebrating - Duke 3D as a game probably would have been a much less appealing, unique and mysterious one if it hadn't been for the existence of SOS, and instead more akin to a prettier Doom clone - and it's kinda funny just to imagine by how much exactly.
1

User is offline   oasiz 

  • Dr. Effector

#11

View PostR A D A Я, on 21 July 2020 - 07:14 AM, said:

Assuming you're responding to me: Freeway as a level is entirely an SOS exploit. All potential visual glitches are concealed by the tight corridor you walk through between freeways.


Freeway is even easymode (Only two layers that need to be stacked), derelict must have been a nightmare to make with the tools they had.
Imagine having to stack all those layers just to playtest each time.. Even with better tools on Ion Fury it was kind of annoying at first.
2

User is offline   Merlijn 

#12

On that subject, the way the SOS is used in Dark Side is really clever. Just look at this:
Attached Image: duke0108.png

The fact that they pulled this off without creating visual glitches is pretty remarkable. Must have taken some time to get all the sectors lined up just right.
It's one of those things you start to appreciate once you understand how the engine works.

(of course, it was quickly rendered obsolute once true 3D engines took over, but still..)
6

User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • The Sarien Encounter

#13

It's no less impressive. In fact, it's more impressive.
0

#14

I'd still side with Build over any of those crummy polygonal engines it was contemporary with anyway, as Build looks good and those other engines look like trash, plus games on said engines often seemed to rely on "oh wow polygons!" above all, making a fun game was secondary at best. I always felt polys became the norm a little too early.
2

User is offline   Aristotle Gumball 

  • banned!

#15

View PostHigh Treason, on 23 July 2020 - 01:08 PM, said:

I'd still side with Build over any of those crummy polygonal engines it was contemporary with anyway, as Build looks good and those other engines look like trash, plus games on said engines often seemed to rely on "oh wow polygons!" above all, making a fun game was secondary at best. I always felt polys became the norm a little too early.


I still can't believe how bad vanilla Quake 2 looks. Worst looking engine ever.
0

User is offline   Smikes 

#16

View PostSanek, on 20 July 2020 - 06:19 AM, said:


And yes, I know that there's a similar "door in a hallway" in Lunar Reactor, but there you can clearly see what's going to open.



On a related note, have you ever noticed in pre-release screenshots from Lunar Reactor that there used to be an identical door directly across from it? It contained a set of stairs that led upward to a small room that was connected to the ventilation shafts in the ceiling. I'm kinda disappointed they removed it.
0

#17

View PostMerlijn, on 23 July 2020 - 09:05 AM, said:

On that subject, the way the SOS is used in Dark Side is really clever. Just look at this:

It's one of those things you start to appreciate once you understand how the engine works.

I've always considered that structure a gold standard example of classic style SOS usage. Its subtlety and texture choices combine to draw your eye in without becoming a gimmick.

View Postoasiz, on 23 July 2020 - 08:45 AM, said:

Freeway is even easymode (Only two layers that need to be stacked), derelict must have been a nightmare to make with the tools they had.
Imagine having to stack all those layers just to playtest each time.. Even with better tools on Ion Fury it was kind of annoying at first.

For Wavemistress and Airplane I had to keep a running series of saves in case I accidentally saved the combined version over my latest because once they were combined there was no going back. I definitely lost a few hours of work a couple of times due to that. I got out of the habit of using normal saves and always Save As with an increment on the number, and a specific filename intended only for the combined version.

Some folks work that way even with normal content where the risk is low, but I've only felt the pressing need for those two.
0

User is offline   NNC 

#18

View Postck3D, on 23 July 2020 - 12:23 AM, said:

There's just so much level design in the first three episodes (most especially) that's just pure experimentation and going nuts with the new possibilities of SOS and I love it. In a way with every new engine it's always a given that the devs are going to flash all the impressive new elements in the player's face, but in this case the new element was SOS which can't be demonstrated but by interesting layouts, conceptual enterprises and elaborate designs. We're kind of lucky the original level designers had so much fun with the feature as they did, it served as a good demonstration to the future fanbase of how abstract yet sophisticated levels could get with it. Duh-level observation as the Build engine was especially notorious for that feature but one that's still worth celebrating - Duke 3D as a game probably would have been a much less appealing, unique and mysterious one if it hadn't been for the existence of SOS, and instead more akin to a prettier Doom clone - and it's kinda funny just to imagine by how much exactly.


I agree. Gotta give Derelict some credits as well, not only it's the only map in episode 4 which felt like a genuine work in the first 3 (or especially the first 2) episode style, but the way they did SOS and eventually the 3D atmosphere there was crazy.

And for Dark Side, slightly off topic, but just watch the shadows in the entire level (the beta version's map had been scanned into the WT thread, that's telling as well).... Blum was so clever, he put all the shadows against the angle of the sun seen in the sky! These kind of things put Duke way ahead of its Build competitors, including Blood, which lacks all of these stunning design elements.

EDIT: oasiz beat me with the Derelict reference.

This post has been edited by The Watchtower: 24 July 2020 - 03:46 AM

1

User is offline   oasiz 

  • Dr. Effector

#19

View PostRunRonRun, on 23 July 2020 - 07:42 PM, said:

I've always considered that structure a gold standard example of classic style SOS usage. Its subtlety and texture choices combine to draw your eye in without becoming a gimmick.


For Wavemistress and Airplane I had to keep a running series of saves in case I accidentally saved the combined version over my latest because once they were combined there was no going back. I definitely lost a few hours of work a couple of times due to that. I got out of the habit of using normal saves and always Save As with an increment on the number, and a specific filename intended only for the combined version.

Some folks work that way even with normal content where the risk is low, but I've only felt the pressing need for those two.


That's interesting, same strategy as I used. Especially when there is zero tolerance for bugs with a "released product", it's extremely annoying since play testing versions always have to be created manually after fixing one bug or two. Some times build won't even automatically create red-walls so during testing you'd just encounter a solid wall despite the sectors overlapping.
I've had to re-separate my maps a few times after managing to mess up filenames so I know what you mean all too well. I have to say that I found the airplane, wavemistress, RR:RA maps and especially EP2 very inspiring when working on Fury SOS so good job on those two. I always try to push the limits :)


Trivia: I don't think this has been brought up but there is a reason why that hallway in dark side has those rotating cycling lights. Having done a lot of SOS, It's now obvious that it's done to "slice" sectors in to convenient bits so that the SOS parts don't overlap. This allows a rather nice rotating angle for the player and seeing only a tiny amount of overlapping sectors at the same time.
This is because the engine only cares two VISIBLE overlapping sectors at a time, it doesn't cull based on occluded view from a wall. You can confirm this by looking at the overlapping hallway, top-side, where no cycler exists but the sectors are still split to slices

This is what I like about clever design with SOS, turning a workaround in to a visual spectacle. Very cool and why I absolutely love pushing SOS work to it's limits.
1

#20

I always tried to avoid SOS for anything other than visual effects, because if I had to go back and fix it later, it would be a headache - more of a headache than it was already, anyway. My preference was to use silent teleporters as much as possible, usually in doorways, corridors, stairways or elevators.

Somewhat related, but it's kinda neat how Blood's alpha has this one map where an overlapping area hasn't been dragged into place yet, or else has been dragged out.
Attached Image: mapedit_038.png
0

User is offline   Ninety-Six 

#21

View Postck3D, on 23 July 2020 - 12:23 AM, said:

There's just so much level design in the first three episodes (most especially) that's just pure experimentation and going nuts with the new possibilities of SOS and I love it. In a way with every new engine it's always a given that the devs are going to flash all the impressive new elements in the player's face, but in this case the new element was SOS which can't be demonstrated but by interesting layouts, conceptual enterprises and elaborate designs. We're kind of lucky the original level designers had so much fun with the feature as they did, it served as a good demonstration to the future fanbase of how abstract yet sophisticated levels could get with it. Duh-level observation as the Build engine was especially notorious for that feature but one that's still worth celebrating - Duke 3D as a game probably would have been a much less appealing, unique and mysterious one if it hadn't been for the existence of SOS, and instead more akin to a prettier Doom clone - and it's kinda funny just to imagine by how much exactly.


I think that's something that has been lost in the past few decades. Back in the 90s and up to around the mid-naughties (and technically the 80s too but I'm specifically referring to FPSes), a lot of games had limitations that informed design. Not just that, but a lot of games were also made to deliberately cheat their way around said limitations, which probably informed design a lot more.

As a result I personally think that was one of the key elements that made these old games so good. They threw themselves whole-hog into showing off as much as possible. Of course creating genuinely good levels was just as if not more important to these games' success, but still.

I think Duke 3D is a shining example of those cheats being on full display. They have this brand new engine that allows for almost genuine 3D spaces, and they decided applying it to more realistic locations while also marrying it to good level design to make exploring and battling in recognizable places essentially a core identity of Duke 3D. And we haven't really seen something like that since. Even the interactivity was there to demonstrate what they could come up with, and that has most definitely been lost in recent games since there's no reason to show it off anymore.

I don't wanna circlejerk here but I truly genuinely believe that a large part of that spirit lives on in this community, as creating believable places with technically more limitations (even though eduke raises the static map limits, most mappers are limited to stock assets only) is what you guys do.
1

#22

View PostNinety-Six, on 24 July 2020 - 06:36 PM, said:

I think that's something that has been lost in the past few decades. Back in the 90s and up to around the mid-naughties (and technically the 80s too but I'm specifically referring to FPSes), a lot of games had limitations that informed design.

Yeah. One of the more painful things about working on current games is the question is no longer "I wonder if I can..." and discovering creative ways to evoke feelings/experiences with limited tools that surprise people. There's literally nothing impossible now if you can afford the investment... which is cool enough on one hand to be that free... but creatively unsatisfying on the other. It's an entirely different form of craftsmanship and was inevitable.

There was a fairly magical window where games still straddled the line between books and movies... where books require you to still use your own imagination to project beyond what the exact words say and create a bigger mental image than literal arrangements of A-Z. Now games are literal (even the artistic/metaphor driven ones). Games aiming for retro styles aren't doing it to stimulate your imagination about "what could be" but instead tapping into nostalgia or just a purely aesthetic choice on the same page with choosing Black/White/Red film colors only.

This post has been edited by RunRonRun: 24 July 2020 - 07:47 PM

2

User is offline   NNC 

#23

What I would have loved to see an idtech1 and quake 1-2 engine game with believable (urban etc.) locations. And a good one as well, not a SiN type mediocrity.

This post has been edited by The Watchtower: 24 July 2020 - 11:00 PM

0

User is offline   Jimmy 

  • Let's go Brandon!

#24

I truly have a big issue with modern games where I can't tell what's an object, enemy, or part of the environment or what-have-you. Everything just blends together for me. The excess of detail really confuses me visually.
2

Share this topic:


Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic


All copyrights and trademarks not owned by Voidpoint, LLC are the sole property of their respective owners. Play Ion Fury! ;) © Voidpoint, LLC

Enter your sign in name and password


Sign in options