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looking for complex, interconnected maps that take place inside a single main structure

User is offline   Snave 

#1

Hello all,

I'm looking for maps that are very twisty and interconnected, with lots of exploration, but take place inside a single main structure, such as a factory, mansion, or spaceship. You know, the kind with lots of hidden passages and walls that explode to open up shortcuts between areas. No city maps please, though I love interconnected city maps too. Otherwise, any theme or style is fine, from any mapping era. It's the layout that I'm most interested in.

Here are my favorite maps in this style that I have played:

RCPD Finale, by Paul Bolduc
Demolition Plant (second level of Rendezvous episode), aka REZ2.MAP, by Henri K, alias RazorZ
Desert Complex, by Robert "underTaker" Wypiór
Brainwash Facility, also by underTaker (this one has more than one building, but is still focused around a big central facility)
Insurance Overload (aka EDF Bureau), by Alias Conrad Coldwood

I've played many Duke maps over the years, but I've never been part of the community. I'm sure everyone here knows about lots of great maps that I've missed, so I'm hoping you can clue me in! I hope it's alright that my first post is a request for recommendations. I'm very thankful for all the great content the community has (and continues to) put out.
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User is online   Ninety-Six 

#2

I admit I don't fully grasp what you're asking for, but is this the sort of thing you're after?
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User is offline   ck3D 

#3

Welcome!

First map that came to mind upon reading your description is ACB Studios: https://msdn.duke4.n...tacbstudios.php haven't played it in a while, but IIRC it ticked all the boxes.

I can totally see the picture you're describing, those are my favorite levels too, although for a few years I've almost exclusively been mapping for and not playing Duke 3D so I might not be the best person to reply. One (unreleased) map I've made recently could also qualify, but it's part of a project that's realistically not coming out in a year, if even that.

I have yet to play the recently released Bioshock map by bullerbuller7 so I can't say for sure, but from what I've seen in videos, it looks like it qualifies under some aspects too, although I can't guarantee anything about the layout being what you're looking for since, well, I haven't experienced it myself: https://msdn.duke4.net/hotbioshock.php

It's a collection of maps, but Duke Hard (thematically) plays inside one structure, although the division between the levels might break your interest (but the immersion works in-game, for me at least): https://msdn.duke4.net/hotdukehard.php

I'm also getting recollections of some maps by the Oostrum brothers such as Red 5 or ABBA, but I haven't played those in years.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 30 June 2020 - 02:54 PM

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User is offline   Snave 

#4

View PostNinety-Six, on 30 June 2020 - 02:27 PM, said:

is this the sort of thing you're after?

Thanks! I downloaded and tried it briefly, and it looks to be the right style, with a fair bit of exploration available to the player at the start. I think a key element of the maps I'm looking for is that the player largely controls the pacing with their own exploration, and slowly gains an understanding of the large-scale layout of the structure and how its parts connect. IMO, the ur-example of this in Duke is E1L3 (Death Row). Another good example is E4L9 (Derelict). The view from outside the ship tells the player "this is the 3D space that you're about to enter and explore and map out", and it's that sense of entering a structure and exploring its innards, so to speak, that I'm seeking (it's not important that the player start outside, though).

View Postck3D, on 30 June 2020 - 02:53 PM, said:

ACB Studios, Duke Hard

I have played and enjoyed both of these. ACB Studios is a decent example of the style, but doesn't get as squiggly and multi-level with its pathways as I prefer. And Duke Hard is great, but yeah, it's more of a thematic cohesiveness, as you said, and not the "one unified 3D structure you can run around in from top to bottom" that I'm looking for. And I'll check out that Bioshock map, thanks.
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User is offline   Micky C 

  • Honored Donor

#5

How open are you to mods and TCs? The AMC TC has many such maps. Although it also has many outdoor maps too.

https://www.moddb.com/games/the-amc-tc
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User is offline   Snave 

#6

View PostMicky C, on 30 June 2020 - 05:50 PM, said:

AMC TC

This looks awesome, but I might have to bookmark it until I upgrade my computer. My only worry with mods and TCs is that I won't be able to run them. I'm using 32-bit Windows Vista (lol) with an aging graphics card.
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User is online   Danukem 

  • Duke Plus Developer

#7

I thought of this map: http://www.scent-88....yx/factoryx.php

It doesn't really have hidden passages or destructible walls, but it is one big interconnected facility and is well designed.
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#8

Those maps has been contains several interconessions, or at least is that's what the reviews and the opinions affirm. Most are based on urban and city setting and not into a single structure, but you may found some of the exceptions you talked about.
Beerzity
Metropolitan Mayhem
Border Town
FM4X - The Uprising
Death Drive Episode
Shocking Twist
Wide Awake II (Wide Awake! sequel)
Forever and one more day
Duke 2070
Pyratel
Spacetronic
DN64 Revisited
Brooklyn Bridge
Entrapped
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User is offline   ck3D 

#9

View PostFantinaikos, on 01 July 2020 - 07:58 AM, said:

Those maps has been contains several interconessions, or at least is that's what the reviews and the opinions affirm. Most are based on urban and city setting and not into a single structure, but you may found some of the exceptions you talked about.
Beerzity
Metropolitan Mayhem
Border Town
FM4X - The Uprising
Death Drive Episode
Shocking Twist
Wide Awake II (Wide Awake! sequel)
Forever and one more day
Duke 2070
Pyratel
Spacetronic
DN64 Revisited
Brooklyn Bridge
Entrapped


Pyratel is a nice one - was on my mind when posting earlier too but somehow I forgot to include it. Also, my two Wide Awake maps really don't qualify I don't think - not only do they not tackle a central structure at all, they're actually all over the place, although the second one (Siebenpolis) was indeed a good 'practice map' for me to figure out how interconnections worked and get better at 2D layouts in general (maybe it was the original spark that encouraged me to emphasize on that aspect of mapping later, actually). I don't think any map of mine released to this day matches OP's criteria, the unreleased levels I'm sitting/working on are more in that style however (that type of approach and design has become a newfound love of mine over the recent years).

Oh, Dukemeal Restaurant is another one that left me with a good, classic impression a few years back but I can't remember whether or not it qualifies for this thread in detail off the top of my head: https://msdn.duke4.net/hotdukemeal.php

This post has been edited by ck3D: 01 July 2020 - 10:28 AM

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#10

Last Reaction and Water Bases episode 2 (fuck me, for shamelessly advertising this thing over and over again)

Moonbase Accident can be your cup of tea as well.

If you like very old maps, the Aqua series might be fun for you too, but it had problems.
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User is offline   Micky C 

  • Honored Donor

#11

View PostR A D A Я, on 30 June 2020 - 08:11 PM, said:

I don't remember if any maps from these authors revolve around a single structure, but when it comes to interconnectedness and nonlinearity I would recommend anything from the following mappers:

David B.
Paul Bolduc
Micky C
Undertaker


Why not something from both Paul Bolduc and Micky C? There's Parkade, which revolves around a central structure and is very interconnected from memory: http://msdn.duke4.net/hotparkade.php

There's the question of whether your computer can handle it though. The map makes extensive use of TROR and was designed for the abandoned and poorly-optimised Polymer renderer. Polymost works relatively well for it these days, but your computer does sound fairly underpowered.

The map has gained a bit of a reputation in that after its release, Paul kept on tweaking it and tweaking it, constantly sending new "final" versions to review sites to host. Puritan at CGS Duke became so annoyed that he permanently changed the site's policy to not accept any map revisions from anyone after the review is uploaded https://forums.duke4.net/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif
I have no idea what version is hosted at MSDN, and quite frankly I'm afraid to play the final version to see how much of my work has been changed https://forums.duke4.net/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif
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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#12

The authors submitted parkade for review & I found exploits. This went back and forth several times, so they basically were using my reviews as beta tests. 8 revisions before Puritan finally them him off. And I got a bunch of animosity for finding exploits and not changing the score dramatically after they were fixed.

It's a good map worth a look. Think I ran it on a phenom II X2 550 black & a gtx 650
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User is offline   Micky C 

  • Honored Donor

#13

I don’t think it was just about fixing exploits. I recall him changing graphic details and gameplay (weapon) progression/balance. He was trying to tune it to perfection basically, with the problem being that perfection doesn’t really exist. I recall him hoping that it would be bundled with eduke32 as a demo for TROR, which is not how eduke32 works.

Anyway, I don’t mean to turn this into the Parkade thread.

This post has been edited by Micky C: 01 July 2020 - 05:17 PM

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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#14

meh.

it's pretty much the reason i don't do reviews anymore. I didn't like the policy of not updating maps. I didn't like not having the ability to update what i wrote, the scores, and the files. I was basically responsible for what I submitted, but had no control over it once it left my sent box. When I asked for the ability to do any of these things and that submitting reviews associated me with the site - I wrote a lot of that stuff while under the influence of pain killers and mood altering medication & I wanted to revisit and redo a lot of it. I was told no and removed from being the forum admin/moderator. I wasn't asked whether i wanted to be removed or not it was simply done without any notice, but since I didn't want to be tied to the control of the reviews I was fine with the decision.

so go play parkade. it aged well & is a good map.

This post has been edited by Forge: 01 July 2020 - 10:16 PM

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User is offline   ck3D 

#15

I'm sorry to be reminded of how much frustration you must have gone through over those reviews, Forge. If that can alleviate the bitterness, regardless of your personal feelings regarding what was published, to this day I still think they marked an epoch of their own in this community and the resurgence in activity they represented at the time probably encouraged a lot of mappers to either get back into the art, or improve at it. I understand that you feel your vision wasn't always respected and maybe struggled to find a suitable platform for you to work with at the pace you wish you could have, but even as they stand publicly right now, they're still a solid and valuable body of work that was constructive to the Duke 3D scene in a way that no other individual without their own outlet has really picked up to such an extent (in terms of both quality and regularity) and with so much personality since.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 02 July 2020 - 01:20 AM

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User is offline   Perro Seco 

#16

Beta One and Beta Two are two of my favourite maps from Robert Travis. They take place inside two lunar bases, and they're so complex and interconnected that even have train systems to allow you reach all different areas easily:

Spoiler


Last week I also played Airport X, one of the biggest maps I ever played (after my Duke 2070 map :)). As the name suggests, all action takes place inside an airport, but this is a very difficult map; you'll have to hunt lots of switches to gain access to different areas, avoid some very annoying tripbombs and explore lots of different areas. Visually is not very attractive (there's almost no shading), but I think it's a very original map. Recommended only if you really want to get lost among all this rooms and passages:

Spoiler

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User is offline   Snave 

#17

I was impressed by Parkade, but yeah, performance was a bit dodgy on my machine. There's lots of promising stuff in these responses, though, thanks everyone. I should have plenty to keep me busy this weekend.
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User is offline   ck3D 

#18

View PostPerro Seco, on 02 July 2020 - 07:44 AM, said:

after my Duke 2070 map


Man, I have no idea how I almost missed that one - I looked up reviews and videos of it after reading your post because the name rang a bell, but I couldn't pinpoint a recollection of a level I'd have actually played from it, it looks really cool! The release must have happened during one of my hiatuses from Build or something. Took me a minute watching someone's playthrough to realize it was a 'raw' map relying just on the original assets because the style is so unique yet works so well. It looks really good, I want to play it (as well as Routine) one of these days now. (And no wonder why you're excited for my episode, funnily enough a lot of it so far shares a certain vibe with Duke 2070 in terms of aesthetics, now I'm stoked because I know for sure you'll really like it). Humor in it is some genius, too - LOL'd hard at the 'night parasols'.

Also 2D screenshots are a lost art, there should be an appreciation thread for those if there isn't one already (probably is somewhere deep down the forums) or something.

Also thanks for recommending Airport X as I kind of want to design an airport map too, so it's going to be interesting checking out someone else's ambitious (in terms of size at least) take on the theme. I've played many others such as Letiste but not this one I don't think.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 03 July 2020 - 02:18 AM

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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#19

I know you mentioned no city maps, but these are pretty atypical & not your average city map

WGCity
https://msdn.duke4.net/hotwgcity.php

Anarxiticalcity
https://msdn.duke4.net/hotanar.php

Slum Noir
https://msdn.duke4.net/hotslumnoir.php
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User is offline   Perro Seco 

#20

View Postck3D, on 02 July 2020 - 11:51 PM, said:

It looks really good, I want to play it (as well as Routine) one of these days now.
Glad to hear that, but I have to warn you that those are difficult maps. I learned a lot about mapping since then.

View Postck3D, on 02 July 2020 - 11:51 PM, said:

Also 2D screenshots are a lost art, there should be an appreciation thread for those if there isn't one already (probably is somewhere deep down the forums) or something.
Yes, I never cared about how maps looked in 2D until I saw the layout of some Powerslave maps. Before that almost everything I built was full of blocky rooms, but now I try to make things a bit more irregular, more compact and with more variety of shapes. The first Doom also has very interesting 2D map layouts, especially E1M4, which is my favourite.
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User is offline   ck3D 

#21

Yes from what I saw I noticed Duke 2070 looked difficult if not tedious but if anything that actually takes it right up my alley, I often struggle with finding time for mapping let alone playing so whenever I do decide on playing a user map I like it when it's immersive and I'm going to be in for an experience, even if it's hard. For one I really dislike the convenience in a lot of maps, you know the typical tropes where the player is supplied a RPG two seconds prior to a Battlelord encounter then rewarded with an Atomic Health etc., it works but there are so many other ways of interacting with the player and actually making them feel emotions than just feeding them with nothing but easy satisfaction, exploring the possibilities is cool. I like challenges so I should be into it. Also now that I've taken a look at the page for Routine on MSDN I'm pretty sure I've played it before and I liked it, but I can't remember much from it, must have been ages ago.

Looking up the maps I was also reminded of that screenshot from the abandoned TC you once posted with all the houses and backyards, that looked really sick, I hope you can make something out of it or at least something on the same scale following a similar idea. That might be too blocky for your tastes now but in general city maps that actually feel like they're more than just three hallways with street textures and a parallaxed sky and more like they belong to a bigger ensemble or are one system of their own are amazing, no matter the form.

Also it's interesting what you're saying about not caring about 2D screenshots, because I'm the opposite, I'm pretty sure the perspective of 2D maps (as seen in game guides, magazines with screenshots from Duke but also Doom II / 64 etc.) was what drew me to mapping, I was more interested in coming up with my own layouts than I was with the idea of '3D modeling' (that was just a nice bonus). The taste for terrain and whatnot came later after seeing how amazingly people had pushed that style in the engine.

This post has been edited by ck3D: 04 July 2020 - 07:18 AM

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#22

With the RPG thing, I sometimes had the misfortune of having to keep exploding weapons out of the player's hands until the very last second due to technical reasons, although I generally tried to avoid using the stock bosses anyway as people seem to find those boring. Like everything else in Duke mapping, it's a compromise that has to be decided on, you can never really have your cake and eat it.

I have zero input on the 2D side of things, as I don't think anything I could say about this would translate in any useful way to how everyone else does these things. There's probably a very good reason for this (i.e. I'm doing it wrong), but oh well.

Someone mentioned Scent88. I'm not even sure what the process is for having your map hosted there any more anyway, I don't talk to the dude who runs it and so my newer stuff isn't there, don't care enough to do anything about it but was sure the guy used to crawl here occasionally for releases - of course it might have been Forge doing this before he ditched it.


Can't think of any maps to recommend that haven't already been mentioned, though I'm glad someone mentioned FactoryX as I did find this one rather impressive when first playing it years ago, especially that water decompression chamber thingy.
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User is offline   ck3D 

#23

(Would edit my former post to avoid O/T, but technically can't)

Holy shit, Perro Seco I just ran into this: https://onemandoom.b...lanisf2wad.html



You're an incredible artist. I really hope you make more maps for Duke. Also the coincidental similarities with the work of yours I'm finding and what I've naturally been building myself recently (while oblivious to it) are pretty crazy under many aspects, you'll see by yourself once this stuff comes out. (and of course you like subways!)

This post has been edited by ck3D: 04 July 2020 - 03:50 PM

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User is offline   ck3D 

#24

Maybe random but I was just reminiscing about this map from 1996 I liked a lot growing up and thought it might fit in this thread:



https://dnr.duke4.ne...r_Building.html

Design isn't the cleanest but works for what it is, a ten-minute nostalgia ride to 1996 and the structure of the level and its layout, whilst not intricate, was pretty interesting for its time with several floors and levels of SOS, IIRC. Centered around a medical school in Des Moines if I'm not getting that wrong. The quintessential fun, very basic old user map.
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User is offline   Snave 

#25

I just played that Azneer Building map and liked it quite a bit. Very pleasing layout and different ways of getting around. Out of the maps I've tried, Pyratel is the winner so far, in terms of having the kind of layout and progression I was imagining when I started this thread. Factory X, Spacetronic, Moonbase Accident, and Water Bases are also looking great so far, but in different ways.
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User is offline   slacker1 

#26

I remember the Azneer Building map from way back in the day. It was one of the few good maps out of the 1500 on the Duke Assault CD.
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User is offline   ck3D 

#27

View Postslacker1, on 07 July 2020 - 12:49 PM, said:

I remember the Azneer Building map from way back in the day. It was one of the few good maps out of the 1500 on the Duke Assault CD.


Ha, originally I also had it from that one Come Get Some CD. Those shovelware CD's I swear have traumatized a few childhoods.
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#28

Talking about nostalgia, this was the first website where I was exposed to Duke maps outside the base game. I remember finding the site accidentally, I actually stopped playing Duke prior to it and focused on HL. I remember enjoying Aqua so much, I even put the trilogy in the user.con as replacements of the three placeholders in E1. I still have fond memories of the trilogy, and this website as well. After that I found MSDN and AMC too, and since then I'm trapped here. Blame Solyga for my shitposts even in 2020. :)
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User is offline   Micky C 

  • Honored Donor

#29

Man it's hilarious that they bother to mention "good framerate" on some maps from 1997 https://forums.duke4.net/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif
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User is offline   ck3D 

#30

View PostMicky C, on 08 July 2020 - 03:56 PM, said:

Man it's hilarious that they bother to mention "good framerate" on some maps from 1997 https://forums.duke4.net/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif


IIRC back then, that stuff would hurt more than ever. Now we're used to smooth results even on most limit-breaking maps filled with sprites and big areas in classic mode on our current technology, but before the ports I remember anything remotely ambitious would occasionally lag so much or just crash the game. There's a reason why so many of those user maps (or even the original levels) were what they were at the time. I still watch the FPS counter a lot whilst mapping myself (it's just that now I have the luxury to disregard it).
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