[Dukebot]

ck3D, on 24 April 2020 - 08:59 AM, said:

Yeah I meant blocking the way so the player can't fall down the pit (by 'invisible walls', people usually mean random-looking blocked areas/purple lines), generally I think it's a pretty bad idea gameplay-wise to softlock the player into certain death, especially in this case as they'll be tempted to go near the pit and maybe even drop down it on purpose (trusting the author of the map) in an attempt at exploration (which should always be rewarded positively, not negatively). I think pits like you're describing (that the player could fall into) can be implemented, but then you'd also need to design a way out or else it's more of a design flaw than properly enclosing the edge of the map, in my opinion.

Plus I don't really like the idea that the player would be free to roam around off limits in the map before they eventually die in the lava, if they have Boots, a Portable Medkit and/or the Jetpack it could take forever and they could manage to sneak into a bunch of taboo places.

Yes I get your point and agree. I was meaning the pit lava in my image example, there is lava if you fall down but there's no way to go because you are surrouinded by walls. I think actually I have this problem on my map in the volcano laval area (not playable area, but player could fall there... and roam around the lava extension.

I would like to know what other people think about your question aswell as youi, maybe with our post exchange, I've buried a little bit your question so I will bring it up again.




What do you guys think about what CK3D asked?

ck3D, on 24 April 2020 - 05:08 AM, said:

What do you guys reckon is the best way to design the boundaries of a city map? As in, all those roads obviously can't lead anywhere in particular, so the mapper has to come up with creative ways of keeping them all the while retaining some sort of credibility for their design (unless they're fine with abstractions such as giant grey walls blocking road ends à la E1L1, which I reckon really works in some instances, not always though).

I'm not too interested in hearing about background sceneries and whatnot (that was covered recently on here as well), but how do you go about those roads essentially leading to nowhere per se in particular? The map I'm currently working on is pretty much a whole city block (realistically-sized/-scaled) complete with a huge central plaza, itself surrounded with a whole network of streets and buildings (and plenty of variations on terrain elevation, etc.). I've completed the whole layout/surroundings so far but the north-western part of the map which is the only open end left, and I'm still kind of debating on how I should close that road in a fashion that doesn't look stupid.

Making unreachable tunnels has been most people's go-to since the late 90's, but I'm kind of over that cheap stuff, plus the north-eastern region of the map already ends like this and I'd like to avoid repetition. I've been thinking of making a destroyed building just laying around blocking everything, but the scale of the section I need to enclose is so large just one building wouldn't really make sense at all and look funny, plus the 2D layout of the level in that part is actually pretty complex and expands for basically the two thirds of the width of the map, so it'd have to be a whole destroyed city block if I wanted to go that route and 1/ that would kill my few available resources left for sure and 2/ it would look out of place. Plus the first map I've made for this project already comprises many destruction scenes and again I would like to avoid repetition.

I'm aware it might be tricky to figure out what I really mean without taking a glimpse at the current layout of the map itself, so I won't mind general suggestions even if they don't happen to match what I'm trying to go for with this particular map. I already have a few semi-abstract thoughts of my own that could work, including some that are popping up just now while I'm typing this, but I still figured I'd consult people and fish for potential ideas that could be better than my own here, for inspiration's sake and get the average player's thoughts as well, if anything, because running out of inspiration when it comes to enclosing the gameplay area (especially in super large city maps) seems to be a common problem for mappers in general. What do you guys usually like to see, and have you had ideas in those regards before that you wish more mappers used?

[Merlijn]

I think a big pit can work as a natural barrier, as long as it's clear that it's a no go zone. If the player falls in, it should be deep enough to instakill the player.
Example from my own maps:


As for other natural looking barriers, since we're dealing with an alien attack they could have sealed off certain areas.
For example maybe they have placed:

-a barricade
-a forcefield
-an alien spacecraft blocking the road
-alien growth (if it fits with the theme of the map, for example the aliens are terraforming the area).

Most non-alien barriers have been mentioned already. I suppose you could combine certain elements if you need to cover a large area.
For example: collapsed building, a fire caused by the collapsed building and a fire truck next to it. That would make sense together and covers a large area.

I'm sure there's much more.

[Perro Seco]

Since this is Duke 3D and maps don't require to be realistic, why not avoid all this? I mean, you can have a street that leads to nowhere, just look at some of the original maps. Hotel Hell's outside areas don't make any sense, but they're cool enough in my opinion. Sometimes I miss this kind of design in modern maps.

Dukebot, on 22 April 2020 - 03:25 PM, said:

I have not been able to test the visibility thing on the whole map. The wiki says that it's with ;+V but it's not working for me.

It doesn't work for me either, let me know if you find the correct key combination because I've been looking for it without any success.

[ck3D]

Perro Seco, on 24 April 2020 - 10:15 AM, said:

Since this is Duke 3D and maps don't require to be realistic, why not avoid all this? I mean, you can have a street that leads to nowhere, just look at some of the original maps. Hotel Hell's outside areas don't make any sense, but they're cool enough in my opinion. Sometimes I miss this kind of design in modern maps.

This is valid and as far as I'm concerned, I'm aware of the possibility; I actually like that stylistic approach too and enjoy going for it when I can, but in practice it only really works in user maps that share the original levels' semi-abstract style to a certain extent. In levels with even slightly more ambition geared towards pseudo-realism everywhere else in the playable environment, such design is very likely to stick out like a sore thumb and break the relative immersion, when such an atmosphere is already established. It's never a bad thing to bring up, though - at all, and people should keep it in mind when designing levels in the 3DR style at least.

[Dukebot]

Perro Seco, on 24 April 2020 - 10:15 AM, said:

It doesn't work for me either, let me know if you find the correct key combination because I've been looking for it without any success.

I've searched image comparation between english keyboard and spanish. The ";" in the english keyboard corresponds with the "ñ" in spanish keyboard. This should work but it's strange, after highlighting the whole map, when I press Ñ+V it says "Yoy have not selected any sector!", so it's detecting the combionation but not responding to the selection. Is there any way to special highlight? Or just draw a normal square with left mouse button and select the desired area? I just hold left mouse, select the whole map, go to 3D mode and press Ñ+V but without success.

[ck3D]

Sector section happens by holding Right Alt while you move the mouse (no clicking) over the area you want to select (in your case the whole map). Once selected, your sectors should be flashing neon green (unless the color has changed since my outdated version of the editor) once you let go of the Alt button. To unselect, simply press Alt Right again without touching the mouse. Just holding left mouse won't do it AFAIK.

In recent versions of Mapster you can select bunches of sprites that same way by using Right Shift instead of Right Alt. Then in both situations, you can copy whatever you have selected by just pressing Insert (and then flip the copy on the X/Y axis, rotate it around, etc. if you feel so inclined), the copy will be stacked atop of the original construction until you move it by holding Left Mouse on it and dragging it around like you would with vertices (don't unselect it before that or you'll just end up with doubles atop of one another - you don't want that). This is crucial for copy pasting and saving time in general.

[Dukebot]

ck3D, on 24 April 2020 - 11:25 AM, said:

Sector section happens by holding Right Alt while you move the mouse (no clicking) over the area you want to select (in your case the whole map). Once selected, your sectors should be flashing neon green (unless the color has changed since my outdated version of the editor) once you let go of the Alt button. To unselect, simply press Alt Right again without touching the mouse. Just holding left mouse won't do it AFAIK.

In recent versions of Mapster you can select bunches of sprites that same way by using Right Shift instead of Right Alt. Then in both situations, you can copy whatever you have selected by just pressing Insert (and then flip the copy on the X/Y axis, rotate it around, etc. if you feel so inclined), the copy will be stacked atop of the original construction until you move it by holding Left Mouse on it and dragging it around like you would with vertices (don't unselect it before that or you'll just end up with doubles atop of one another - you don't want that). This is crucial for copy pasting and saving time in general.

It's not working for me. I remember in the past doing the way you explained but since I am using the new mapster don't know if this has changed. Holding right alt not working. Holding right shif it's displaying the same selection as if you click the mouse. But they don't turn green as before, they just get highlighted and says that I hace selected X sprites and X walls.

Which version of mapster are you using? Maybe I can try to do that with the older version because I've been trying to figure this out for a while and can't do the proper selection as it was done in the old build editor (remember the green lines but they do not appear anymore).

[ck3D]

Honestly I'm not even sure which version it is, it's so old no number is displayed so it's gotta be a snapshot from 2009 or something equally as ridiculous (it won't even let me highlight spritework or use functions such as NOSHADE). I've used more recent snapshots before though, on laptops and would definitely recommend those over mine (actually I would recommend everything over mine). I haven't updated because the computer I've been using for Duke is a sketchy old rig and I'm paranoid about touching anything that works on it, but I'll need to eventually as for the finishing touches of my maps, I'll need to use some of those functions. Other people should be able to help a lot better than me here (literally everyone else, really).

[Dukebot]

ck3D, on 24 April 2020 - 11:53 AM, said:

Honestly I'm not even sure which version it is, it's so old no number is displayed so it's gotta be a snapshot from 2009 or something equally as ridiculous (it won't even let me highlight spritework or use functions such as NOSHADE). I've used more recent snapshots before though, on laptops and would definitely recommend those over mine (actually I would recommend everything over mine). I haven't updated because the computer I've been using for Duke is a sketchy old rig and I'm paranoid about touching anything that works on it, but I'll need to eventually as for the finishing touches of my maps, I'll need to use some of those functions. Other people should be able to help a lot better than me here (literally everyone else, really).

Don't worry you've been much help, knowing it's snapshoot from 2009 it's enoguht for me to look for it and try it! Actually I tryed to do this thing with the old jfbuild build my map it's so big that the editor crashed when going into 3D mode . So I will try with older mapster version and see. Thanks for the help!

[ck3D]

If you're going to get an old Mapster snapshot, maybe get one from circa 2014, 2015 instead. Those ones I've used before so I know that they still have the features you're looking for, in addition to all the new ones my prehistoric version is crucially lacking.

[necroslut]

Dukebot, on 24 April 2020 - 11:42 AM, said:

It's not working for me. I remember in the past doing the way you explained but since I am using the new mapster don't know if this has changed. Holding right alt not working. Holding right shif it's displaying the same selection as if you click the mouse. But they don't turn green as before, they just get highlighted and says that I hace selected X sprites and X walls.

Which version of mapster are you using? Maybe I can try to do that with the older version because I've been trying to figure this out for a while and can't do the proper selection as it was done in the old build editor (remember the green lines but they do not appear anymore).

There are different modes of selections for selecting sectors (rAlt) or selecting vertices and sprites (Shift) – they don't do the same thing. Even if you've selected all of a sector's vertices, that doesn't mean the actual sector is selected. A selected sector (the "floor", not the surrounding wall lines) should be flashing yellow in 2D view.
Right Alt doesn't always work for me either (non-US keyboard), but switching to another keyboard layout (Shift+Alt in Windows) might work.

ck3D, on 24 April 2020 - 05:08 AM, said:

Since this thread is a thing, I thought I'd ask my own question too.

What do you guys reckon is the best way to design the boundaries of a city map? As in, all those roads obviously can't lead anywhere in particular, so the mapper has to come up with creative ways of keeping them all the while retaining some sort of credibility for their design (unless they're fine with abstractions such as giant grey walls blocking road ends à la E1L1, which I reckon really works in some instances, not always though).

I've come back around to really favoring the 1.3D way. Partially because I'm also of the view that 100% (or close) of the map should be explorable and enterable. This is, IMO, really one of the things that set the "classic" shooters apart from the modern breed.

[Dukebot]

It seems it was a problem with more recent mapster or at least it's not the same key anymore. Tried the 2015 version of mapster, the sector selection worked properly as always (selecting holding RALT) and I could change the visibility of the map. This is how it looks with maximum visibility:



But this it's too exageratted, I will try to find a good value between 240 and 255, experimenting a little bit. Now that the sky is orange, I will increase visibility since it's an outdoor area, but want to keep black silouettes from the distance as I think they look good now with this new sky.

Thanks for all the help given, finally I've been able to change this.

[necroslut]

Dukebot, on 24 April 2020 - 01:34 PM, said:

It seems it was a problem with more recent mapster or at least it's not the same key anymore. Tried the 2015 version of mapster, the sector selection worked properly as always (selecting holding RALT) and I could change the visibility of the map.

The way keyboard layouts are handled was changed a few years back, when ED32 switched over from SDL1 to SDL 2. This probably relates to that. Before that I didn't have to change keyboard layouts either.

Quote

This is how it looks with maximum visibility: [image]

But this it's too exageratted, I will try to find a good value between 240 and 255, experimenting a little bit. Now that the sky is orange, I will increase visibility since it's an outdoor area, but want to keep black silouettes from the distance as I think they look good now with this new sky.

This scene looks really nice, and original. Almost reminds me a bit of N64 almost-open-world games like Super Mario 64 or Banjo Kazooie.

[Dukebot]

necroslut, on 24 April 2020 - 02:23 PM, said:

The way keyboard layouts are handled was changed a few years back, when ED32 switched over from SDL1 to SDL 2. This probably relates to that. Before that I didn't have to change keyboard layouts either.

This scene looks really nice, and original. Almost reminds me a bit of N64 almost-open-world games like Super Mario 64 or Banjo Kazooie.

Thanks for the keyboard layout info, didn't know about that, this has been a bit of headache but finally I managed to do what I wanted.

Thanks for your words, glad you liked it. I grew up with the nintendo 64 and there it was the first time I played Duke Nukem, and yes this map it's influenced by a lot of old nintendo games =) such as the ones you described and also a little bit of Zelda too.

[ck3D]

Perro Seco, on 24 April 2020 - 10:15 AM, said:

Since this is Duke 3D and maps don't require to be realistic, why not avoid all this? I mean, you can have a street that leads to nowhere, just look at some of the original maps. Hotel Hell's outside areas don't make any sense, but they're cool enough in my opinion. Sometimes I miss this kind of design in modern maps.

necroslut, on 24 April 2020 - 12:44 PM, said:

I've come back around to really favoring the 1.3D way. Partially because I'm also of the view that 100% (or close) of the map should be explorable and enterable. This is, IMO, really one of the things that set the "classic" shooters apart from the modern breed.

Well, that was it. After two minutes of trying to implement the earthquake scene I could already tell I didn't like the vibe that was giving off so I scrapped that, enclosed the whole section of the map I wasn't certain about with some walls just to see how that would look, refined things a bit, added some background scenery behind said walls (that's obviously unreachable/unplayable and just there for decoration, nothing that would make the player think they can even go explore the place), altered the way some sidewalks connected and ended up with something simple that I like, looks classic, works with the tricky layout of that section (that really was the tough part to figure out) and doesn't contrast with the rest of the level at all - contrary to what I was fearing.

Thanks for reminding me that once again, simple is best - now that's already my philosophy most of the time (and increasingly so, too) but, for some reason, that particular chunk of the level happened to be wired in a way that was making me trip balls. Took some hindsight to realize the basics could actually work there too.

And now I even have a semi-comfortable amount of remaining resources for the rest of my shenanigans, that I can finally focus on since those aesthetics are out of the way. Awesome.

[Dukebot]

ck3D, on 24 April 2020 - 04:20 PM, said:

Well, that was it. After two minutes of trying to implement the earthquake scene I could already tell I didn't like the vibe that was giving off so I scrapped that, enclosed the whole section of the map I wasn't certain about with some walls just to see how that would look, refined things a bit, added some background scenery behind said walls (that's obviously unreachable/unplayable and just there for decoration, nothing that would make the player think they can even go explore the place), altered the way some sidewalks connected and ended up with something simple that I like, looks classic, works with the tricky layout of that section (that really was the tough part to figure out) and doesn't contrast with the rest of the level at all - contrary to what I was fearing.

Thanks for reminding me that once again, simple is best - now that's already my philosophy most of the time (and increasingly so, too) but, for some reason, that particular chunk of the level happened to be wired in a way that was making me trip balls. Took some hindsight to realize the basics could actually work there too.

And now I even have a semi-comfortable amount of remaining resources for the rest of my shenanigans, that I can finally focus on since those aesthetics are out of the way. Awesome.

Glad to hear finally you got the inspiration you needed to continue further! I agree with you that sometimes going for simple it's the best solution. Good luck with you map!