[King Mustard]

Ideally, it's compatible with Megaton Edition or 20th Anniversary World Tour.

Any suggestions?

[Phredreeke]

> Decent
> Nuclear Winter


...say what?

[NightFright]

If you say Nuclear Winter, you can just as well say Duke!Zone II. If that passes as "decent"...

[gemeaux333]

Nuclear Winter is the black sheep of Duke 3D add-ons and nothing more !

[Sanek]

 gemeaux333, on 17 February 2020 - 01:15 PM, said:

Nuclear Winter is the black sheep of Duke 3D add-ons and nothing more !

How about Duke Xtreme? Sunstorm made DC and Caribbean, and then they made this.

Anyway, if you're looking for vanilla expierence (since you only mentioned theses addons), my first recommendation will be FM3X episodes. It's 3 episodes that looks and feels so much like the original game that you'll be thinking it's some "lost episodes" or smtn. I believe the author posted all the maps individually on Steam.

I'd also recommend Metropolitan Mayhem, which tries to stay to the game's roots, but have more style be the variety of the best mappers ever.

[King Mustard]

 Phredreeke, on 17 February 2020 - 12:32 PM, said:

> Decent
> Nuclear Winter


...say what?

 NightFright, on 17 February 2020 - 01:11 PM, said:

If you say Nuclear Winter, you can just as well say Duke!Zone II. If that passes as "decent"...

 gemeaux333, on 17 February 2020 - 01:15 PM, said:

Nuclear Winter is the black sheep of Duke 3D add-ons and nothing more !

Oops, I think I touched a nerve?

 Sanek, on 17 February 2020 - 01:52 PM, said:

How about Duke Xtreme? Sunstorm made DC and Caribbean, and then they made this.

Anyware, if you're looking for vanilla expierence (since you only mentioned theses addons), my first recommendation will be FM3X episodes. It's 3 episodes that looks and feels so much like the original game that you'll be thinking it's some "lost episodes" or smtn. I believe the author posted all the maps individually on Steam.

I'd also recommend Metropolitan Mayhem, which tries to stay to the game's roots, but have more style be the variety of the best mappers ever.

I am struggling to install either with Megaton Edition.

This is what I am starting with:

\\FM3X-GRP\FM3XATOM\<five files>
\\FM3X-GRP\FM3XPLUT\<five files>
\\FM3X-GRP\FM3XREG\<five files>
\\FM3X-GRP\TXT\<34 text documents>

\\metropolitan\metropolitan.bat
\\metropolitan\metropolitan.CON
\\metropolitan\metropolitan.grp

Can anyone help, as I prefer how Megaton Edition looks (including the HUD) over EDuke32/Polymer.

[Jimmy]

I would heavily recommend God of War.

[NNC]

Last Reaction and Water Bases

Episode 2 (Water Bases) has a quality of commercial levels, when I first played it I thought it's a pirated version of an official add-on.

[NightFright]

The Roch series is still pretty enjoyable these days, even though it never turned into a complete episode.

From the newer community releases, Duke Hard is also worth checking out.

[King Mustard]

So I played some of the suggestions.

• Metropolitan was fun.
  
• FM3X was too hard to finish most levels (hard to know how to continue on many levels) but some were very fun
  
• God of War was a bit rubbish

[NNC]

 King Mustard, on 22 February 2020 - 03:13 AM, said:

So I played some of the suggestions.

• Metropolitan was fun.
  
• FM3X was too hard to finish most levels (hard to know how to continue on many levels) but some were very fun
  
• God of War was a bit rubbish

Now try Last Reaction and Water Bases (and start with Water Bases, episode 2), and you will understand why I have the most relevant opinion on this forum.

[Radar]

 The Watchtower, on 22 February 2020 - 03:44 AM, said:

and you will understand why I have the most relevant opinion on this forum.

>constantly shills for World Tour
>hates Roch maps

[NNC]

 Radar 100 Watts, on 22 February 2020 - 08:53 AM, said:

>constantly shills for World Tour
>hates Roch maps

>likes hodjpodj design and ugly details that aged very poorly
>thinks it's a relevant opinion

Roch 6 has some merits though. It should be retextured at places and should have a better, more sensible monster placement, but it has an interesting layout and that bridge was gud. The rest: please, no.

[Jimmy]

>prefers Megaton
>thinks Nuclear Winter is better than God of War

Opinion discarded

[Radar]

 The Watchtower, on 24 February 2020 - 01:36 AM, said:

>likes hodjpodj design and ugly details that aged very poorly
>thinks it's a relevant opinion

Roch 6 has some merits though. It should be retextured at places and should have a better, more sensible monster placement, but it has an interesting layout and that bridge was gud. The rest: please, no.

I think you are misjudging these maps based on how you felt while playing them rather than considering the greater context of the episode. When it comes to level design, the Roch maps are quite unified starting from Roch 5 and beyond. Singling out Roch 6 for some reason just strikes me as an uninformed opinion.

[Radar]

Also, no other maps have aged the way the Roch maps have (besides Roch 1 obviously). I played co-op with a newbie last year and since I needed a map that worked with XDuke, I went with Roch 2. Dude was amazed and asked what year it came out in. 2000. Nothing else gets that reaction today besides Red, but even that came out a little later.

[NNC]

I actually loved Roch maps when they came out, even exchanged some emails with Pascal. It just aged poorly, like most of the modern looking maps. In fact, some maps from World Tour aged pretty badly as well, the overdetailed ones from Levelord.

[King Mustard]

Duke Hard

• "Poormann's Library" is broken is recent builds of EDuke32
  
• Last three levels were rubbish
  
• Up to the last three levels - really fun
  
• Hardly any of the light switches worked #disappointing

Dark Station

• Went down into the train tunnel thing toward the start, something "jumped me" and I got stuck in a small, black cube. Rubbish. Gave up.

Last Reaction

• Played through most of the first two levels. Didn't like either of them. Levels were too expansive, puzzles were annoying etc. Gave up.

Will try Water Bases and the other suggestions next.

[Forge]

ADG Episode by Alejandro Glavic

http://www.scent-88....s/A/adg/adg.php

[Newken]

DUKE NUKEM 3D CHRISTMAS OF 1997

[Jimmy]

 Radar 100 Watts, on 24 February 2020 - 09:32 AM, said:

Also, no other maps have aged the way the Roch maps have (besides Roch 1 obviously). I played co-op with a newbie last year and since I needed a map that worked with XDuke, I went with Roch 2. Dude was amazed and asked what year it came out in. 2000. Nothing else gets that reaction today besides Red, but even that came out a little later.

I highly disagree with this. C3PO and SalaciusCrumb come to mind. Roch is overrated.

[Fox]

 King Mustard, on 25 February 2020 - 04:51 AM, said:

Last Reaction

• Played through most of the first two levels. Didn't like either of them. Levels were too expansive, puzzles were annoying etc. Gave up.

Will try Water Bases and the other suggestions next.

Water Bases is one of the most brillant TCs ever.

Last Reaction is meh.

[Fantinaikos]

Good stuff with classic logics: MSSP episode, Burnt, The Final Confrontation, The Lost Duke Episodes (although it may depends on your taste), 25th Century Duke (December Man did even a Cosmetic Duke patch for this)

Less vanilla stuff: Secrets of Acropolis, Infestation in Time, WGRealms, The Brave New World (retroactively it's also integral part of AMC TC lore).

For some reason not many speak about TD's Imperium, maybe because being a DP+models campaign it's not the first that comes to your mind.

Try also this obscure TC called Destination Ghetto with the English language patch.

 Jimmy, on 25 February 2020 - 09:17 AM, said:

I highly disagree with this. C3PO and SalaciusCrumb come to mind. Roch is overrated.

A coincidence for sure, but C3PO maps are cool with Duke Forces.

[NNC]

 Fox, on 25 February 2020 - 10:07 AM, said:

Water Bases is one of the most brillant TCs ever.

Last Reaction is meh.

Last Reaction shows George Bernard's progression as a mapper. King Mustard - despite our recommendations - tried the first two levels which were bad. In fact, the next four are bad as well. The first two are just annoyingly dark, expansive mazes with little to no ammo. The third level (Jungle Zone) is slightly better in terms of playability, but it still had many WTF moments, like that catwalk next to the mountain, and some areas are oversized and ugly as well. The next two maps (space and moon) are taking forever without having any kind of progression in them. Khaki Space took me an hour, basically half of the entire Lunar Apocalypse episode. New LA, the sixth level is showing signs of life, level is more playable, although it's still amateurish in design. Old LA on Ice is the transitilonal level between the bad maps and the good ones.

The last four levels of Last Reaction are as good as the Water Base episode. They had that great, dark, but also vibrant atmosphere, and while the whole thing is oversized, somehow Bernard turned that into the TCs advantage. My favourite level in the Last Reaction episode was the penultimate one next to the entrance of the stadium. That was very well made.

Water Bases needs no description. You can see some similarities with Lunar Apocalypse here and there, and the episode felt a bit samey around the 4th-5th levels, but it looked great, played great, the new water, canyon etc. textures gave it a distinct look. The last four levels after Alienation were masterpieces with Back to LA being one of the most epic pieces I've ever played for this game. And the bossfight was extremely memorable as well.

It's kinda interesting, how the Chimera TC (which was basically the third episode in a different release) turned into a total mess. It was made by Bernard after Water Bases, so it should have been naturally better. Those new enemies, like that yellow thing were awful, and the levels showed no coherence (the canyon one looked interesting though, but that icy maze was early LR level of BS). And of course the episode wasn't finished, Mikko recreated one map from the debris left by Bernard.

[Radar]

 Jimmy, on 25 February 2020 - 09:17 AM, said:

I highly disagree with this. C3PO and SalaciusCrumb come to mind. Roch is overrated.

:-/ I'm gonna be real and say C3PO and Salacius only made 2 maps outside of SST that were Roch-tier quality, and they were Fruit Loops and VOA respectively. I know there's Shocking Twist but that's not a classic map. None of these maps have the open-world style of the Roch series, which I think is what set Roch apart from the rest.

[Jimmy]

Fruit Loops is god-tier.

[NNC]

It's a pretty basic map honestly, especially combat-wise.

[ck3D]

 The Watchtower, on 26 February 2020 - 12:20 AM, said:

Last Reaction shows George Bernard's progression as a mapper. King Mustard - despite our recommendations - tried the first two levels which were bad. In fact, the next four are bad as well. The first two are just annoyingly dark, expansive mazes with little to no ammo. The third level (Jungle Zone) is slightly better in terms of playability, but it still had many WTF moments, like that catwalk next to the mountain, and some areas are oversized and ugly as well. The next two maps (space and moon) are taking forever without having any kind of progression in them. Khaki Space took me an hour, basically half of the entire Lunar Apocalypse episode. New LA, the sixth level is showing signs of life, level is more playable, although it's still amateurish in design. Old LA on Ice is the transitilonal level between the bad maps and the good ones.

The last four levels of Last Reaction are as good as the Water Base episode. They had that great, dark, but also vibrant atmosphere, and while the whole thing is oversized, somehow Bernard turned that into the TCs advantage. My favourite level in the Last Reaction episode was the penultimate one next to the entrance of the stadium. That was very well made.

Water Bases needs no description. You can see some similarities with Lunar Apocalypse here and there, and the episode felt a bit samey around the 4th-5th levels, but it looked great, played great, the new water, canyon etc. textures gave it a distinct look. The last four levels after Alienation were masterpieces with Back to LA being one of the most epic pieces I've ever played for this game. And the bossfight was extremely memorable as well.

It's kinda interesting, how the Chimera TC (which was basically the third episode in a different release) turned into a total mess. It was made by Bernard after Water Bases, so it should have been naturally better. Those new enemies, like that yellow thing were awful, and the levels showed no coherence (the canyon one looked interesting though, but that icy maze was early LR level of BS). And of course the episode wasn't finished, Mikko recreated one map from the debris left by Bernard.

You always have interestingly sharp taste on what makes a level good and what doesn't. Sometimes I wish you would go out of your way to make conceptual 'tutorials' for mappers in addition to dissecting releases once they're out, which already makes you a good critic, and of course those would reflect your particular tastes but 1/ that's always up for one to disagree with if they choose and 2/ I'm always sensing a certain science behind your points. Occasionally I feel like if people were more open to sharing opinions (which comprises being receptive to the foreign ones they receive and not just firmly standing their ground because they're scared to grow) and places like here functioned as more of a think tank in those particular regards, the quality of what's left of Duke 3D mapping as a whole would improve drastically. Wait, that's everything in life

[NNC]

 ck3D, on 27 February 2020 - 01:39 AM, said:

You always have interestingly sharp taste on what makes a level good and what doesn't. Sometimes I wish you would go out of your way to make conceptual 'tutorials' for mappers in addition to dissecting releases once they're out, which already makes you a good critic, and of course those would reflect your particular tastes but 1/ that's always up for one to disagree with if they choose and 2/ I'm always sensing a certain science behind your points. Occasionally I feel like if people were more open to sharing opinions (which comprises being receptive to the foreign ones they receive and not just firmly standing their ground because they're scared to grow) and places like here functioned as more of a think tank in those particular regards, the quality of what's left of Duke 3D mapping as a whole would improve drastically. Wait, that's everything in life

Thanks you mate. I think your approach is pretty scientific as well, probably that's the reason you enjoy my rants more than most people here.
I also like MetHy's and Mikko's input, they are very solid critics as well, I always look for their reviews of things I'm interested in, even if I disagree with some of their opinions.
Too bad I don't have the creativity and the patience to be a mapper. I started building random stuff here and there, but stopped it after an hour at most, and never looked back. I'm better at fine tuning existing maps, adding better flow to them, or better monster placement, than creating my own stuff. I remember a few years ago I completely redid a couple of things in ADG episode and it was a much better experience than the original version (at least IMHO).

I always considered mapping as a work of art anyways, and a pretty complex one, that is, so I better leave it to the pros. My big problem is that most people are focusing on micromanagement (architecture) more than macromanagement (urban design), also gameplay/flow is usually one dimensional in most maps I play too. Macro is a very hard task though and it needs special creative talent only a few people, like Romero or Blum has. It means you need fresh concepts and strong visual narratives in your levels, but you still have to restrict yourself to the original game's aesthetics. A common mistake in many usermaps that they are just reinventing the wheel, they are just remaking the old concepts, only to throw more stuff in there, ie. a seemingly more advanced looking cinema from Hollywood Holocaust, or a more advanced moonbase from Dark Side, but the final result is often ending up in a scatter brained visual cacophony. Interesting how Levelord ended up with this unprofessional approach in World Tour, but that just confirmed my view he is not a very good mapper on his own, Broussard and Blum helped him a lot to have good maps like The Abyss for the original game. On the other hand Romero in Sigil, or Allen in WT showed their creative classes and used their games' original art styles for new conceptual levels. The result was that their maps felt like canonical adventures, parts of the original experience, despite them being made 20-25 year later. I know you find it hilarious, but when I see an imp or a cacodemon in a hyped-up megawad like Eviternity, I always feel they don't belong there. When I played Sigil for example, I felt every single caco or imp or whatever in those maps are legit, and I'm back in 1995. When I played Golden Carnage, I just saw that iconic 3DRealms logo ahead of me, it felt so canonical and genuine.

The other miss in most usermaps, the good flow/gameplay is more baffling though, because I think it doesn't need special talent, just a little discipline, and it's much easier to implement than the micromanagement of mapping most people focus on. Somehow I feel this part of mapping needs some musical skills, ie. a good sense for rythm. Both Blum and Levelord are great talents at this, their best levels play like just a piece of good music. Try maps like Fusion Station, Dark Side, Raw Meat or LA Rumble and you will know what I mean. The levels, their flow, the enemy placement in them are totally rythm based and dance-y. Also I don't understand why some mappers are so obsessed with non-linearity. If you look at LA Meltdown episode for example, E1L2, E1L3, E1L4 and E1L5 are massive linear rides, and those were finished around 1995, so even back then they came to the conclusion it's not a swear word in FPS gaming. I think the linear approach is the best way to add good flow to the levels, and that might be the reason Half Life and the modern FPS games followed this formula over the tree branch/sandbox like mapping. Nonlinearity can be a good addition too to have a sense for 3D (and it's indeed missing from most modern shooters), but only if the player moves forward, and the path is always clear. Russell Meakim from No Rest for the Living was the absolute master of this, he built his levels in a shape of 8, which means you often revisit previously cleared areas, but never backtrack, and if you grab the key, you enter it's door very soon after it, just from a different angle. Every time there is a little backtracking in these maps, there is an alternative secret path as well. Backtracking is not a good thing in mapping, for example in Duke3D they only used extenstive backtracking in areas where there was a spectacular stuff to visit, ie. Warp Factor had a massive backtracking, but only in the space shuttle where you can marvel to grandness of the space just once more. I also don't like (for the exact same reason) the layouts that use too many buttons and keys. These things weren't made to drag the level more than necessary, and you almost never visit random rooms to collect a key to just enter another room somewhere else. Keys and buttons are made for separating the level's different themes, ie. the outdoors and the indoors, or the friendlier areas and the more hostile ones. Blum managed to make very large maps without having too much keycards in them...

Well, I ended up writing some wannabe and scatter brained ""science"" in this post, but this is how I see things in mapping.

[Jimmy]

A level like Hollywood Holocaust isn't quite linear or non-linear in my opinion. It's somewhere in-between (multi-linear????) There's about five different ways to get the same end result. That's what makes it feel like a real world environment, because there's so many ways to get around, but at the end of the day you have the same starting and ending point.