[the_raven]

Not the hardware plug'n'play, that still functions as it did (I think), but I'm talking about video-games.
Recently, I've had the itch to play Skyrim. I reinstalled it, but when I went to download mods (because the game is boring without them), my head started spinning: there' just so many of them! It takes hours to just find the ones you want, then to download them, then to install them. And it's not as simple as copying the files either, you have to make sure there' no conflicts, and that your mod list doesn't exceed 255 files, and then some. So by the time I'm finished with the mods, I no longer have any desire to play the damn game at all!
Quite a few people actually complain that because of how active the modding communities have become, developers no longer put the same effort into the games. Why would they? The modders are gonna fix everything that's broken, and add a ton of new stuff to boot! And I tend to agree, at least, with some companies.
By comparison, I also installed Final Doom (as I never beat it), launched it, selected the first pack, hit new game, and was all set. No tinkering, no mods, but the joy factor is enormous! Sure, we still had patches from devs back in the days, and we still have mods (especially today), but the former were far more rare and actually significant because not everyone could immediately get their hands on a fresh patch (the internet still being new and still relatively slow), whereas the latter are also a big deal, because they don't just add a door here, or a new gun there - they remake the whole game. But the games themselves were enjoyable and replayable even clean. And it was great.

Now, I'm not here to discuss why it's happening - this has already been discussed over and over, possibly on this very forum. I just want to rant about how I wish games were instantly playable out of the box: install, launch, play. No wasting five minutes watching various developer logos that you can't even skip sometimes, no endless cutscenes every two steps, no permanent internet connection.
You know? Plug'n'play.
It's good that there still are companies and games that are like this, even if they allow modding.
Eh, anyway, I'm out.
Discuss.

[DisgustedGrunt]

Personally i only install mods to extend a game, not to fix it. If developers can't fix their shit why should I?.

[OpenMaw]

No....?

If a developer decides to slack off because they think the community will pick up the slack, they're shitty developers.

Mods have always served two purpoess. 1 Extend and change the game in minor or big ways. (A light saber skin for the crowbar in Half-Life versus Counter-Strike, for example.)

2. A way for developers to basically talent scout without having to go looking. Valve, id, and other developers have done this. Shit, some studios were born ltierally of modders coming together to make cool shit.


Too many mods? I think that's ridiculous. One of the great things about Doom, Quake, Half-Life and Duke3D is you literally have years worth of content for each game. There are some 800 user maps for Half-Life. Plus all the big mods like They Hunger, Timeline, Poke 646, etc... Is there a lot to sift through? yes. Is there a lot of garbage? Yes. But it's so much fun to explore all of these avenues.

What we need are more mods, and more developers that give a shit about their games to put in mod support.

[Zaxx]

There is something to be said about the "plug'n'play" aspect for sure but nowadays that can even work for mods if the developer / publisher cares enough. The Steam Workshop works really well for a lot of games, Valve lets people release mods through separate Steam app so all you have to do is just hit install and you're good to go, the client takes care of everything else. Some non Steam games support Workshop-like features too, stuff like in-game mod managers / mod browsers exist now etc. so an easy way to install and play mods is getting more and more important.

[necroslut]

 the_raven, on 08 January 2020 - 09:21 AM, said:

Recently, I've had the itch to play Skyrim. I reinstalled it, but when I went to download mods (because the game is boring without them), my head started spinning: there' just so many of them! It takes hours to just find the ones you want, then to download them, then to install them.

Sounds to me like the issue being Skyrim just isn't a very good game. And as for relying on modders to fix things, I think that Bethesda are pretty much the only ones to actively do that (I guess Rockstar used to do it too) and pretty much the only ones who can get away with it time after time.
Quite few games even support modding these days.

[Mark]

I think the point that Raven is trying to make is that with so many different player made mods for game fixes, gui, music and graphics, etc and with many versions out there for each type of those mods it can be a long and frustrating experience. He mentioned Skyrim. I haven't played that but I did play the similar Oblivion and I kept my mods down to only 2 small ones that made simple common sense changes to the gui. I was too intimidated to attempt the other 124 cool mods out there. BTW, 124 is a made up number but I'm guessing not far off.

[MrFlibble]

I can somewhat relate to what the OP says, but to me it seems that the problem is in the sheer amount of content that is now available. It's not just mods, the same is with complete stand-alone games: there's just so many of them, and you have to do some digging (including reading/watching reviews, let's plays and stuff) to figure out if you actually want to spend your time on this ir that particular game.

Recently there was a discussion here about whether Ion Fury should have a playable demo (apart from the preview campaign) in the "try before you buy" style, and there were opinions voiced that in the era of instant Steam refunds and YouTube let's plays demos and shareware have become obsolete concepts. Well, I have to disagree. Paying for something and then refunding if you don't like it seems like a very odd practice to me - I'd prefer to buy a game only when I'm more or less sure that I want it (but of course this is better than not being able to refund at all), while, again in my opinion, no amount of watching how someone else plays a game is the same as playing it yourself.

As a recent example, I kind of followed the development of Loria, being a Warcraft fan and all, and thankfully they made a demo available at some point which I tried, and in fact didn't like it that much after all and decided not to buy. I did not really like how the game played (not even counting pathfinding bugs which I hope will get fixed sometime), and this is not something I would figure out from watching how others play it. I believe it is fair to give the prospective buyer a chance to try out the game before they pay for it, rather than go through the refund process.

Concerning mods, I usually try to avoid using them and play a game as it was intended by the developers - unless these are third-party fixes of something that is obviously broken, like community patches for Daggerfall. And of course I don't mean global mods/TCs like Duke Force or Alien Armageddon which are complete games in themselves. But for stuff like the OP describes, I have at some point looked at Morrowind mods that improve the game's visuals etc. but ultimately decided to pass because I'd like to get the original experience as intended by the devs. Perhaps once you're through with the original game you might want to try mods for variety's sake, after all, this is what modding is for

That said, I do not rule out the possibility that for certain games, there are mods that have substantially improve them (note however that, to my personal taste, upgrading visuals with more detailed models, high-res graphics etc. are cosmetic changes that don't really count as "substantial" improvements); but if the base game is not very good, it seems rather unlikely to me that it would gather enough of a following and dedicated modders who would want to work on it to make it better and fix the developers' mistakes.

Back to the OP, I have not played Skyrim so I can't tell if it is less playable than Final Doom in its "clean" unmodded state, but Doom itself is one of the top games (if not the absolute number one) by the amount of user-made content, and there's simply no way at all you could play everything that has been created for it (unless you have infinite free time that is). The only way to find something apart from following the news and player blogs is probably to ask around the community, provided you know what you want. And if you do not enjoy the base game, perhaps no mod will fix that for you, but that probably varies from case to case.

[necroslut]

 MrFlibble, on 11 January 2020 - 04:24 AM, said:

Back to the OP, I have not played Skyrim so I can't tell if it is less playable than Final Doom in its "clean" unmodded state, but Doom itself is one of the top games (if not the absolute number one) by the amount of user-made content, and there's simply no way at all you could play everything that has been created for it (unless you have infinite free time that is). The only way to find something apart from following the news and player blogs is probably to ask around the community, provided you know what you want. And if you do not enjoy the base game, perhaps no mod will fix that for you, but that probably varies from case to case.

The major problem with Skyrim and mods, though buggy in the typical Bethesda fashion, isn't really that it's unplayable without mods so much as it's a pretty boring and shallow game.

[Mark]

Skyrim...boring and shallow? I guess thats why the estimate is only 30 million sales worldwide instead of higher.

[necroslut]

 Mark, on 11 January 2020 - 06:45 AM, said:

Skyrim...boring and shallow? I guess thats why the estimate is only 30 million sales worldwide instead of higher.

Yes obviously shallow things have never become popular ever. You got me.

[DisgustedGrunt]

 Mark, on 11 January 2020 - 06:45 AM, said:

Skyrim...boring and shallow? I guess thats why the estimate is only 30 million sales worldwide instead of higher.

Boring? arguable.

Shallow?



In Morrowind you had to think, remember and follow instructions. Don't remember if that guy said east or west? check your journal.
In Skyrim? just follow the floating arrow.

funny story:
When i was a kid i used to constantly confuse East and West. the spanish ( my native language) names didn't help either: Este and Oeste, how did i fixed it? by playing Morrowind. I went in the complete opposite direction a few too many times, and learned from that.

[MrFlibble]

 necroslut, on 11 January 2020 - 04:31 AM, said:

The major problem with Skyrim and mods, though buggy in the typical Bethesda fashion, isn't really that it's unplayable without mods so much as it's a pretty boring and shallow game.

I probably should have used the word enjoyable instead of playable in that part of my post. Mods and community bugfixes shouldn't be confused, and I was talking about the former.

I don't know if there are mods that are supposed to make Skyrim more interesting, but generally if I find a game boring I'd rather switch to something else and not try to find mods that fix the problem - but again, this depends on what game it is, and if I myself have a clear idea of how the shortcomings could be fixed.

As a matter of fact, I'd be quite interested to know any examples of games that were improved by modders from something obviously flawed into a more interesting playing experience.

[HulkNukem]

The only developer I've heard people complain about letting the community 'fix' their games is Bethesda. Who else is doing this?

The closest I can think of is STALKER, though a number of those mods do more than just fix any bugs or broken content.

[Player Lin]

 MrFlibble, on 11 January 2020 - 10:17 AM, said:

I probably should have used the word enjoyable instead of playable in that part of my post. Mods and community bugfixes shouldn't be confused, and I was talking about the former.

I don't know if there are mods that are supposed to make Skyrim more interesting, but generally if I find a game boring I'd rather switch to something else and not try to find mods that fix the problem - but again, this depends on what game it is, and if I myself have a clear idea of how the shortcomings could be fixed.

Yeah, all TES series were buggy as hell in some degrees, so community bugfixes already existed, back then, when TES2: Daggerfall era.

There are a lot of overhaul mods trying make Skyrim better and not boring like original but still, I heard some guys prefer unmodded of the game, but not many of them, everyone has their own taste, and different things preferred, and that's why Skyrim sold a lot I guess.

Too bad I didn't very get into such overhaul mods(at least gameplay part, did installed some visual overhaul mods) so I could not give any advice in this part.
Also, there are some gameplay/quest/dungeons mods that taken away/didn't use the map marks system so you can questing without map marks, if you really want the old style.

And that's why I like the game can be modded. I did some small mods on TES5 (and Fallout3/NV/4), like porting something in FO4 to TES5 or make something very powerful to "murder" my dragonborn, just for fun.