[Mark]

I think working on more than 1 project at a time is very common here. In my 11 years of modding, most of that time has been spreading myself out over 2-5 projects at the same time. Less if its a team effort. More if they are personal projects. Between both types I still am part of at least 6 projects right now. They go slowly as I jump around a lot. Not the best workflow but its how I roll. I'm retired and feel in no rush to finish something quickly.

But I suppose if my projects were only mapping they would be more sequential.

[Mark]

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[Sanek]

@Mark I feel Kingpin vibe here! Not a big fan of skybox though, it looks low-res by compasion with the map area itself.


I'm thinking about my map right now and one the gimmicks I want to implement is that you can't spent too much time on the street because of the tougher enemies roaming around. You'll have some ammo, but it won't be enough. I have 2 options, and both have significant drawbacks:

1. Have a squad of battlelords, that'll drain your health quick from the distance, but who's also very slow and have tendency to stuck in places.

2. Have a huge army of newbeasts who's fast. Personally, I like this idea more because newbeasts feat the map's legend more. However I can be certain that some guys like The Watchtower or Ninety-Six will be nagging that "Duke3D is not about throwing billions of monsters right in your face, it's not Doom, your map sucks!".

So here I am. Of course, I can always go with standard pool of enemies, but I want to have a gimmick that make this map a standout, so I'll try to make it less typical.

[Mister Sinister]

Go with the battlelords, build some cover, make some small streets and etc. Newbeasts are way too easy to avoid in open areas.

[ck3D]

Sanek, on 18 July 2020 - 06:20 AM, said:

Personally, I like this idea more because newbeasts feat the map's legend more. However I can be certain that some guys like The Watchtower or Ninety-Six will be nagging that "Duke3D is not about throwing billions of monsters right in your face, it's not Doom, your map sucks!".

No map can or will ever please literally everybody. Other players' feedback are a valuable resource to understand what technically works in a level and what doesn't, but you should follow your creative vision over everything. Trends are what does suck, just pursue what you think is cool.

Re: your concern, I think Battlelords are way deadlier than Newbeasts in open environments due to them having a hitscan weapon. Maybe just place a barrage of them in designated areas somewhere high up in Stayput position. Hell, a whole level could be built around that idea and lowering the platforms individually.

[The Battlelord]

Sanek, on 18 July 2020 - 06:20 AM, said:

However I can be certain that some guys like The Watchtower or Ninety-Six will be nagging that "Duke3D is not about throwing billions of monsters right in your face, it's not Doom, your map sucks!".

lol, i liked the carnage in Ruinas map, i don't know why i find it funny to play and in some other maps is boring to kill monster after monster, i guess the author should do what he likes and inspires him.

[Merlijn]

ck3D, on 19 July 2020 - 11:11 AM, said:

No map can or will ever please literally everybody. Other players' feedback are a valuable resource to understand what technically works in a level and what doesn't, but you should follow your creative vision over everything. Trends are what does suck, just pursue what you think is cool.

Re: your concern, I think Battlelords are way deadlier than Newbeasts in open environments due to them having a hitscan weapon. Maybe just place a barrage of them in designated areas somewhere high up in Stayput position. Hell, a whole level could be built around that idea and lowering the platforms individually.

I concur with this. Battlelords would work if you place a couple of them on strategic spots in stayput position and if there's enough cover for you to dodge their fire. Perhaps you could even combine stayput battlelords with newbeasts, but that might get too frustrating. This would depend on the layout of the area. In the end it's your vision.

[Sanek]

I get it. I started it all with battlelords anyway, but hesitated a bit because (as I said before) that can stuck in places. I actually thought that battlelords will be chasing you, but I can see where I can go with just placing them in stayput positiion on some key locations. So thank you I guess.

[Mister Sinister]

One map is FINALLY finished. Here's a little tease.

[Mister Sinister]

I need one beta-tester, preferably a very skilled player. PM me if you're interested.

[Sanek]

*I applied, but then we decided that I'll better play the finished title.


I want to say something about Blast Radius. I don't want to sound aggresive, but I'm URGING ck3D to release one level from his episode on it's own! It'll be sort of a demo, a preview - the same thing you did a decade ago with Meatball Sub Makin'! If every map of the episode have the same "ck3D user map" sort of a quality, it'll be a great way to get everyone interested!

[ck3D]

Ha I appreciate the interest, but I'll be my own PR here. Besides the map making, the process of going for a long-term project itself is an interesting experience for me. The idea of not leaking any actual level while keeping working on more is exactly the challenge I'm enjoying dealing with right now. I also really want to present those maps as a set in a certain given context and separately they wouldn't make as much sense. So I don't think I'll be releasing any of them as user maps. I've actually pondered the idea before but ended up deciding on nah. I know what I'm doing here, and I can't wait for when I'll be in position to actually tease that thing - don't worry. You can always ask questions though, and I'll be dropping screenshots often. Those past few weeks I've just been busy as shit but the map I'm currently on has been maturing inside my head, and even on the only mapping session I've been able to allow myself in the past few weeks I got to add some more stuff I like. Once that particular map is over too, I'll get to experiment with different styles that are out of my comfort zone and I can't wait. It's just a fun ride working on this (and admittedly quite the unreasonable one - in terms of time it's voracious).

I might still release stuff independently before that project is done and out, too. It doesn't have to be leaked content to build hype, just playable content. CBP2020 is around the corner too and I hope you'll enjoy my part in there, it's a funky one.

[Sanek]

Allright, I uinderstand. I guess it's going to be like one of these old Roch maps, when you can see part of the previous levels, isn't it?

Treating the episode's making as the experiment/challenge of sorts is the interesting one. Yes, I can see that you think differently about layout, ammo, weapons, enemies and stuff and you also can have a bigger storyline than a single user maps' usually allows.
It almost seems unreal to me that I made 2 episodes myself a decade ago but I had my reason for it, aka getting bored with the whole thing and just trying to finish several maps asap. Maybe I'll make a new episode some day...we'll see.

ck3D, on 31 July 2020 - 03:50 AM, said:

I'll get to experiment with different styles that are out of my comfort zone and I can't wait.

It looks like a city episode to me. Every map of yours looks different enough yet it still have your style, so I wonder what it's going to be.

And speaking of comfort zones...we all remeber that you made a map called Dark Side of the Moon, and you NEVER made another space-themed map EVER AGAIN.

ck3D, on 31 July 2020 - 03:50 AM, said:

I might still release stuff independently before that project is done and out, too. It doesn't have to be leaked content to build hype, just playable content. CBP2020 is around the corner too and I hope you'll enjoy my part in there, it's a funky one.

Nobody's talking about leaking anything, especially unplayable. I also see no reason to release maps as a separate when the whole project will be released. Still, do what you want and yeah, can't wait for CBP 2020.

[ck3D]

Got to map a bit this weekend. Current level is just reaching the 500 sector mark, I'd say it's safe to assume a quarter of it is complete. I rarely get to map these days because of my own savant mix of work and summer but somehow manage to get quite a lot done on the few occasions I get.

Here are some more low-visibility in-editor shots,

I designed this city block and brought that area a little closer to completion, still lacking all the detail:





Also spent some time doodling little tight alleys, ideally I'd like this map to have tons of transitions and alternate routes from building to building via lateral connections, this is just a start but I've made some little balconies, also buildings on the first shot are brand new and still need work:





And because you guys liked the triangular building, here's a less beta version of it complete with illumination and some perspective for general scale:

Sanek, on 31 July 2020 - 01:24 PM, said:

Allright, I uinderstand. I guess it's going to be like one of these old Roch maps, when you can see part of the previous levels, isn't it?

Treating the episode's making as the experiment/challenge of sorts is the interesting one. Yes, I can see that you think differently about layout, ammo, weapons, enemies and stuff and you also can have a bigger storyline than a single user maps' usually allows.

Yeah, that's kind of it except on (what feels like) an even larger scale. The downside is feeling like you pretty much keep sitting on Roch maps, but (hopefully) good things require time.

Sanek, on 31 July 2020 - 01:24 PM, said:

It looks like a city episode to me. Every map of yours looks different enough yet it still have your style, so I wonder what it's going to be.

And speaking of comfort zones...we all remeber that you made a map called Dark Side of the Moon, and you NEVER made another space-themed map EVER AGAIN.

I don't intend it to be just city maps at all. I think I'm getting those out of the way because I want to keep the most exotic and fun experimentation for last. You'll see (and I'll see too, depending on what I actually end up materializing - so far the scope is still evolving as I'm going, and I don't want to flaunt what might amount to just be delusions of grandeur).

Dark Side Of The Moon was so bad! I had no idea what a true space map even was. Now, on the other hand...

[Ninety-Six]

I like the way the streets and buildings kinda start blending with the sky texture. Makes it feel less unconnected and more like a part of the world too.

[ck3D]

Thanks I'm glad you dig it, and that's an interesting observation - in general with those maps, I've been having fun spending some time making sure the sky texture really fits the theme of the level both in terms of color and vibe, here I reckon what you're describing works especially because of a combination of palette choices and how the landscape of the map itself is especially neon-heavy, tall buildings whose patterns blend into the sky tile which has a similar style of contrasting bright-on-dark tones (with some red in common too). Later when I add out-of-bounds sceneries with actual building silhouettes using that same tile as a wall texture like I've shown in map 2, and the general landscape of the map is less cluttered with evenly tall walls everywhere, the immersion should get even stronger (that's usually what happens, and what already happened to me with map 1 and 2).

Also when the visibility is fixed (I want a lot less fog, and more elements to be visible from distance), things should start taking another look as well. Originally I wanted to make every map full bright, but now I'm reconsidering how drastic that decision would be because the maps so far all have their atmospheric moments visibility fog probably contributes to the atmosphere of to a certain extent - I'll just have to see on a case-by-case basis.

Also please don't mind the apparent frame rate on those screens. For some reason my computer loves starting to process random updates in the background just as I feel like making screenshots, and slows shit down (happened here, and has happened to me once or twice before while making some for this thread). The map itself still runs fine and smooth so far.

[Ninety-Six]

ck3D, on 03 August 2020 - 03:34 AM, said:

Thanks I'm glad you dig it, and that's an interesting observation - in general with those maps, I've been having fun spending some time making sure the sky texture really fits the theme of the level both in terms of color and vibe, here I reckon what you're describing works especially because of a combination of palette choices and how the landscape of the map itself is especially neon-heavy, tall buildings whose patterns blend into the sky tile which has a similar style of contrasting bright-on-dark tones (with some red in common too).

Pretty much.

And yeah, a little ambient darkness/fog tends to create certain atmospheres.

[11bush]

I've been working on some Vietnam war stuff again, but I'm working with the duke palette, and directly with the art tiles.

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[MC84]

11bush, on 05 August 2020 - 08:44 AM, said:

I've been working on some Vietnam war stuff again, but I'm working with the duke palette, and directly with the art tiles.

Nice! - your weapon sprites are looking much more coherent/natural.

[11bush]

MC84, on 05 August 2020 - 12:35 PM, said:

Nice! - your weapon sprites are looking much more coherent/natural.

Thanks, it's taken me a while to find what really seems to work for me.

[Merlijn]

CK3D, those shots look really good! They're really different from your usual style, although it also feels like a logical continuation from Poisoned heart. If that makes sense.

Finally getting SG3 closer to be finished. Some parts were very time consuming to make, but I'm not going to spoil those here.
It will also have several jokes and easter eggs (as always), so for fun here's one:



Yes I realize it's low hanging fruit. Couldn't resist.

[ck3D]

Thank you Merlijn! I think the similar feel to Poison Heart has something to do with all the visible lights and neon lighting. Poison Heart had some of a cyberpunk feel to it (accordingly to some feedback it got), and this new level is straight up pushing that style but in a different direction. More futuristic-looking than the average Western metropolis, in a way. I also think the momentary absence of detail has a lot to do with the level not looking like my style; as soon as I start working on the final touches of a map, putting in the tiny decoration, cars and whatnot is usually when things come together for me as far as wrapping up the aesthetics.

I'm really looking forward to SG3, good luck with it. I'll probably just enjoy myself replaying all three levels once this one drops. That trim work on the rightmost building looks nice and smooth. Also that sign is funny - I made some very similarly-crafted ones (even re-using the 'coming soon' part of that texture in the exact same way - now, not that anybody never did that before) in map 2 of my thing, which are also intended to be humorous but in a different genre. I don't want to spoil them, otherwise I'd post pictures, but the resemblances are striking to the point where when I saw your thumbnail, for a split second I wondered if it was from my map somehow!

[11bush]

I started working on an uzi today, but I'm not sure if the texture is too much. Maybe I should go a bit flatter. This is one of the sprites from the reload sequence.

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[ck3D]

Been working on map 3 again for the past couple of days, it's in the 630+ sectors now. Had fun designing more little connections from place to place and a building and its interiors and rooftop with four layers of SOS and eight (!) ways out of it, but I guess I kinda micromanaged that one - it's not even a large or especially crucial part of the level, but it was fun to make and I guess it's practice for what's next, also I love the idea of designing something that should be fun for Dukematch too. Also designed one more of those little alleyways traversing blocks, and just about ready to tackle more indoor stuff - should be fun. One positive of the work-on-the-whole-map-at-once approach is you get to pick what you're in the mood for working on out of everything you want to have in the level and then to just do it; for instance here it's pretty cool being able to juggle with different sections of the level depending on what I'm inspired to design, whether it's a large or narrow, outdoor or indoor area, etc. so progress is (ideally) more likely to be quick and constant.

[ck3D]

Added 100 more sectors today so now map 3 is in the 730+'s and going well, I'm stoked and hope I can maintain the pace. Here's a handful of tings:



Very WIP indoor area that I just started this morning with quite the funny/unrealistic architecture, might or might not be subject to change heavily but right now it looks like this. Still devoid of detail, sprite work, pillars etc.



A rough bit of yet another simple alleyway like I've been super into designing recently, although still empty for now, just for the colors and shapes.



Wee lil' Duke Burger thing sandwiched somewhere in between stacks of SOS. This is inside the building with eight ways out (for now), for instance here the ventilation shaft on the ceiling connects with the rooftop some floors above.

And these last two are just because I'm happy to see the city as a whole slowly start to come together and come to life:

[Ninety-Six]

I always love it when tiny lights are visible in the distance. Really makes the place feel lived in.

I'm getting a very strong Blade Runner vibe from the full city shots.

[ck3D]

Yeah me too, about the lights - in general it's something I've found myself incorporating into my style since I started working on this project. The maps are quite large and spread apart so I've been using full bright values (or more or less 'full bright' depending on the situation and the 'power' I imagine the light source has) to mark certain perspectives and create landmarks to help with navigation. As soon as I realized brighter shade values on walls and sprites also affected their visibility and allowed them to be seen from any distance and started applying that to lights, honestly it was game over for me in that it's all I seem to do now because it adds so much in terms of depth and pseudo-realism. I'll still mess with the visibility of each individual map pre-release so the final product is bound to look a little different (basically more buildings will be drawn on screen instead of fading to black) but I'm definitely focusing on and preserving that aspect.

And yes this map in particular focuses on that aesthetic, ideally I'd like every map to have its distinctive visual style and Blade Runner describes the tone of this one really well, what's funny too is I've gotten Blade Runner comparisons for other maps before but I don't think I ever even watched the movie or played the game. I'm familiar with other works that shared inspiration with Blade Runner and aware of the definition of those aesthetics though, and I fully embrace them, it's just funny how it's not really a conscious thing. To be honest I think a lot of what drew me to the original game originally was the Blade Runner vibe already - it never really pushed it like that (also due to technical limitations at the time) but the feel of dystopia I always thought was always very much present in Duke 3D and I always liked the idea of honoring that atmosphere in user maps, that's true.

Also after all these years I currently find it to be the most practical way of mapping as the style itself is pretty easy on the resources - in a way it has everything to do with optimizing the look of the ones you've already spent with the right texture picks and values (paired up with basic, contrasted lighting/shading), as opposed to cramming as many sectors and walls as possible into really intricate architecture to try and convey a pseudo-realistic atmosphere.

[Ninety-Six]

ck3D, on 16 August 2020 - 12:47 AM, said:

And yes this map in particular focuses on that aesthetic, ideally I'd like every map to have its distinctive visual style and Blade Runner describes the tone of this one really well, what's funny too is I've gotten Blade Runner comparisons for other maps before but I don't think I ever even watched the movie or played the game. I'm familiar with other works that shared inspiration with Blade Runner and aware of the definition of those aesthetics though, and I fully embrace them, it's just funny how it's not really a conscious thing. To be honest I think a lot of what drew me to the original game originally was the Blade Runner vibe already - it never really pushed it like that (also due to technical limitations at the time) but the feel of dystopia I always thought was always very much present in Duke 3D and I always liked the idea of honoring that atmosphere in user maps, that's true.

Yeah, you're not wrong. There was a particular dirtiness to the levels that gave it a similar aesthetic flavor. Still, I'd argue that in addition to the technical limitations, there was a conscious decision to ground the visuals, too. To opt for, instead of future grit, just regular old grit. This was going to be one of the first games to let you explore familiar-looking locations, after all. Lameduke probably had a somewhat stronger Blade Runner vibe (ironically so, despite some of the levels being directly based on some real world LA locations instead of the much more generic city locations we had in the final game), and it overall probably fit in more with Duke 1 and 2.

All that aside, there's still something to be said for pushing the BR inspiration to the forefront (and I just realized the initials work for both Blade Runner and Blast Radius). To be honest I've only ever seen the movie once, and I hardly remember anything about the plot or the characters (in fact I remember having a hard time following the plot for some reason). But I remember the striking visual style, taking the "used future" idea from Star Wars and running it even further. And of course there are the many, many other works inspired by that same style. Of your other maps, I would say the one that's come the closest to that neo-grit style seen in BR would probably be Poison Heart. The massive buildings, the heavy use of shadows, and the very unclean walls and decals. To this day I still very vividly remember the view from that blue bar place. Looking out over the cluttered roofs of the nearby buildings, in a dark disused corner of the city... I took a screenshot of it that I hope I uploaded somewhere before my hdd went kaput.

For this map, I see the BR style more in the street level rather than the upper areas of PH. That's not a bad thing by any means, it's just something I noted. PH was very vertical and felt the most BR on the roofs and balconies, this has the feel right out in the streets despite the buildings not being so clustered together. It definitely feels more futuristic without going too far that it's unrecognizable. It takes me back to various shows and game cutscenes I watched where we saw dirtied street views of half-futuristic cities and disappointed I never had the chance to explore them myself. So I guess that's another thing to look forward to when this map (and the rest of BR, despite apparently this map being the one to focus on that aesthetic) comes out.



This post turned out way longer than I thought.

[ck3D]

That's a very good analysis, I think you're definitely onto something with the devs originally replacing future grit with something more relatable, something fascinating about the mood of Duke 3D wasn't as much as the futuristic impression as it was the not-so-distant-futuristic impression if that makes sense. Even the calendar sprite in the game would convey the feel that the timeline occurred only a decade after the release of the game and that paired up with recognizable locations (albeit in a very strong and specific style) probably made Duke 3D stand out a lot more than it would have had it retained the style of Lameduke. Lameduke was only that much less abstract than Doom when you think about it. And it's only because the original devs ended up making that switch for something less 'out there' that it is now possible to drift away from those established conventions and make maps that are considered experimental. Just to draw a parallel, I feel like in general it's considered more experimental to make a typical, normal-looking city map in Doom than it is to make something abstract in it, because that game set different definitions to begin with.

But I love and have always loved Lameduke. Siebenpolis was sort of an attempt at replicating the feel of that game without having to resort to its assets, and oasiz's Slum Noir blew my mind when it came out because it felt so fresh and yet when you think about it, in the hands of different mappers in an alternate dimension the whole original game might as well have looked and felt like this. There's such so many ways of interpreting the assets and the editor and on the other hand there's also all the little design quirks that made the original Duke 3D levels play so well by exploiting the strengths of the engine. Here I'm walking a fine fun line because I essentially want to retain those exact strengths so that playing the episode feels like pure Duke 3D, just on a larger scale and in differently stylized settings. I'm not saying I'll succeed but that's the basic idea and motivation.

And yes you've posted that screenshot of Poison Heart before, I remember it, a lot of people loved that section and it's also one of my favorites. Poison Heart in general was good for experimenting with larger scale maps and figuring out what worked in them and what didn't. This particular bit you're talking about was a lot of fun designing with the different rooftop heights, the platforming and whatnot and in terms of design, it's actually a subtle but deep nod to Hollywood Holocaust with the combo of that partial 45 degree angle with the grey wall texture, and also a smaller one to L.A. Rumble with that big screen on the building (but then again I feel like I'm paying tribute to L.A. Rumble every time with those - also coincidentally, one of the original maps with the strongest Blade Runner look and feel to me).

If you're looking forward to exploring this type of cityscape then I'm happy to say you'll probably enjoy this one yeah - it has a bunch of indoor locations and secret pathways already and I plan on keeping adding a lot more, if anything it's going to be the most exploration-based level out of the three I've been making so far. Thanks for the motivation!

[Sanek]

Am I the only one who's thinking about 2121 A.D. while looking at ck3d's skyscrapers? I know that you're looking for your own or maybe the original game's style as far as layout it concerned but it just have that look of that old map. Perhaps it's been such a long time since we saw anything like it (5th element map maybe) but the tall buldings really stand out now! Can't wait for some vertical gameplay action!