[Hank]

OccludeOlga, on 15 March 2020 - 05:02 PM, said:

The reason I'm slightly annoyed is I'm questioning what the hell we've been talking about here the past several years if some of you guys are being caught off guard by the current happening. Both the pure physical viral test, but in addition the economic infrastructure test, and then finally the totalitarian government let no crisis go to waste test. This moment is literally everything myself, Jimmy, POC, and to some degree Mark/Forge/Sledgehammer/get mad at me for leaving you out... have been talking about for years.

cut ...

I'm just fucking sad that so many people here are surprised. I tried.

What, are you upset, about me, not to hear?
I'm in construction. My indicators are developers and their building plans, for like until 2026, not duke4.
Frankly, a new virus that kills people, at fraction of comparable other viruses, simply does not compute with us (us as in business sector). OK, let them folks panic. Time to adjust. My peeps are set up, over this weekend, to work from home. We’ll use ZOOM, to communicate. I’m back in Mississauga, Canada, at my core business. Worst case, engineering contracts get put on hold. Who cares? Been there before, no big deal. I’ll take my girl on a long drive to Banff, she's never been there. And go from there. There are always business opportunities. Just need to look harder.

Luv ya lots. Looking forward to your new games.

[Forge]

OccludeOlga, on 15 March 2020 - 05:02 PM, said:

I'm just fucking sad that so many people here are surprised. I tried.

but wait, there's more

there's still an open tab on the latest real estate bubble, the sea of student loan, and the swamp of government over spending with an unsustainable budget


you won't believe the detergent they plan on using to get rid of those stains

[PokeThePower]

Hank, on 15 March 2020 - 08:03 PM, said:

What, are you upset, about me, not to hear?

That the freak wave was coming, just can't predict timing.

Hank, on 15 March 2020 - 08:03 PM, said:

Frankly, a new virus that kills people, at fraction of comparable other viruses, simply does not compute with us (us as in business sector).

Well frankly, you are interpreting the death rate incorrectly. This is the most destructive virus we've seen in a century. If you couldn't spread it until you showed symptoms, then yeah it would be a giant who gives a shit. Ebola is insanely *deadly*, but damn near impossible to spread. We still don't know what followup waves look like and I also don't buy that construction isn't sensitive to human herd reactions to something that was already proven a couple months ago to be able to overwhelm a medical infrastructure with so many cases that even relatively simple cases were suddenly high risk.

BTW these are the current best places for raw updates:
https://nothingburger.today/
https://www.worldome...fo/coronavirus/

What I like about worldometers (besides them being the fastest to update currently) is the cases per million column in their data, and the "new today" column. The cases per million data gives a VERY different perspective because, for example, Switzerland is being hit hard but nobody is talking about it due to the lower population numbers overall.

And remember... all numbers you see about the flu are expanded projections based on past experience and smaller sample sets... not confirmed cases. All numbers you see about Corona Chan are "confirmed" cases therefore heavily under counted, not projections based on decades of experience. This is why any asshole coming along trying to compare the numbers is advertising their retardation and should be cut out of any future business dealings you might have with them unless you can reliably control the variables and just use them as a communication conduit.

Hank, on 15 March 2020 - 08:03 PM, said:

OK, let them folks panic. Time to adjust. My peeps are set up, over this weekend, to work from home. We’ll use ZOOM, to communicate. I’m back in Mississauga, Canada, at my core business. Worst case, engineering contracts get put on hold. Who cares? Been there before, no big deal. I’ll take my girl on a long drive to Banff, she's never been there. And go from there. There are always business opportunities. Just need to look harder.

If nothing happens and you get no big deal, then that means the actions worked. I just spent the weekend with my two retired parents. Once I convinced my mother that this isn't a democrat conspiracy to take down Trump, though they will certainly USE it for that, she quickly understood just how nasty this could be for her and the almost entirely post retirement age community she interacts with.

Hank, on 15 March 2020 - 08:03 PM, said:

Luv ya lots. Looking forward to your new games.

We are doing solid work, but I'm 99% sure you won't care about our new games... ahahahah.

[PokeThePower]

Forge, on 15 March 2020 - 08:21 PM, said:

but wait, there's more

there's still an open tab on the latest real estate bubble, the sea of student loan, and the swamp of government over spending with an unsustainable budget

you won't believe the detergent they plan on using to get rid of those stains

Yarp. Gold and silver suppliers are having a hard time meeting their orders because the paper price for them is now so dislocated from the demand. Monday is looking to be another dip despite (because of?) the ZIRP and fed guaranteed

[Danukem]

In a modern society where we don't personally farm/hunt our own food, most of us depend on economic activity for our survival. Poverty isn't just an inconvenience -- it can be fatal. By shutting down the economy to protect people from the spread of the virus it's quite possible that the deciders will kill more people than the virus would have.

Let's do a thought experiment. Imagine that all of us, every single human being on the planet, all contract the virus right now. 80% of us will be asymptomatic or have a mild case. The other 20% will become seriously ill, and somewhere between 1% and 3% of us will die. It's hard to say how many but I suspect it's closer to the 1% figure because the reported cases are almost always the more severe ones -- they tell anyone who will listen NOT to get tested if your symptoms aren't severe because there's nothing they can do anyway.

So in my thought experiment, most of us will be able to carry on and engage in economic activity even when infected, and we would be able to do so freely without concern of infecting anyone else, because everyone else is already infected. The healthcare system would be overwhelmed, but only for a few weeks, because after that the virus will have run its course. The economic impact would be limited to one quarter. A fair number of people would be dead, but not many young people.

Now compare that scenario to reality. Reality is vastly worse. Even though somewhat fewer people will actually be infected (maybe half as many?), the economic impact on our current course of shutdowns will be absolutely devastating. It will probably kill more people, through poverty (not to mention possibly riots or mass violence) than the virus would have in the first scenario. Plus the virus will still kill a lot of people regardless. Too bad we can't choose my thought experiment option, eh? I'm hoping that I've underestimated how vastly rich the developed world is, and that we can just take a few months off and ride it out and everything will be fine. Sure.

Here's another thought experiment, another comparison.
Scenario 1: A shooter kills two people in a group at random, without warning. End of story.
Scenario 2: The shooter has the group of people trapped and they know it. He says, "In ten minutes, I'm going to shoot the two people who are the least wounded. That's right: if you want to survive, cut yourself, break your noses, make yourself a bloody mess. The two least wounded people will be shot." What is the most rational course of action for the group to follow (qua group)? Clearly, they should stare blankly at the man and do nothing. If he's good to his word, he will select two of them to die -- essentially at random since none of them are wounded -- and that will be the end of it. But people being selfish, that's not what will happen, is it? The first person cuts herself...now if no one else does she is safe. Then a dude bashes his head open with a rock. Now he's safe, until...pretty soon everyone is a bloody mess. And then two of them still get shot in the end.

[PokeThePower]

Trooper Dan, on 16 March 2020 - 12:45 AM, said:

and somewhere between 1% and 3% of us will die.

This is not the percentage when your medical capacity is exceeded. Italy is screaming at us to pay attention.

You folks just don't get what happens when you throw 5 million new people at an infrastructure built to handle 1 million.

[Danukem]

OccludeOlga, on 16 March 2020 - 12:54 AM, said:

This is not the percentage when your medical capacity is exceeded. Italy is screaming at us to pay attention.

You folks just don't get what happens when you throw 5 million new people at an infrastructure built to handle 1 million.

I'll put it this way: I'm against the incremental approach of screwing around with gradual half measures that cause economic damage without doing enough to stop the spread. If we are going to "flatten the curve" to get on top of it, then frickin shut everything down for a few weeks and do that starting now. Otherwise, we are better off just going about business as usual and spreading it everywhere and getting it over with.

[PokeThePower]

Trooper Dan, on 16 March 2020 - 01:33 AM, said:

I'll put it this way: I'm against the incremental approach of screwing around with gradual half measures that cause economic damage without doing enough to stop the spread. If we are going to "flatten the curve" to get on top of it, then frickin shut everything down for a few weeks and do that starting now. Otherwise, we are better off just going about business as usual and spreading it everywhere and getting it over with.

I won't disagree that the wishy washy behavior of the entire Western World is painful to watch grind along. However just like everyone I spoke to, literally every single one, ignored me in early February when I said I was reallocating my retirement funds... modern western culture is simply incapable of collective pre-emptive action. Even once a situation is understood to exist, modern western culture is incapable of UNIFIED action. It's anathema to the entire modern philosophy. Only homogeneous cultures can react in non-wishy-washy ways once a legitimate threat is recognized and this is largely because due to the homogeneity there is a shared perspective on what constitutes a threat.

It's this sort of failure to recognize the material you have to work with (culture, human nature)... instead of what you wish you had that is so baffling to me sometimes. So much time is wasted talking about what should be instead of what is. And yes I use the term baffling ironically... it makes perfect sense given the material we have to work with.

[Forge]

Trooper Dan, on 16 March 2020 - 12:45 AM, said:

Here's another thought experiment, another comparison.
Scenario 1: A shooter kills two people in a group at random, without warning. End of story.
Scenario 2: The shooter has the group of people trapped and they know it. He says, "In ten minutes, I'm going to shoot the two people who are the least wounded. That's right: if you want to survive, cut yourself, break your noses, make yourself a bloody mess. The two least wounded people will be shot." What is the most rational course of action for the group to follow (qua group)? Clearly, they should stare blankly at the man and do nothing. If he's good to his word, he will select two of them to die -- essentially at random since none of them are wounded -- and that will be the end of it. But people being selfish, that's not what will happen, is it? The first person cuts herself...now if no one else does she is safe. Then a dude bashes his head open with a rock. Now he's safe, until...pretty soon everyone is a bloody mess. And then two of them still get shot in the end.

You fail to take into account that there are people like me who aren't afraid to die and would walk around punching everyone else in the nose so that they could live.

There are a lot worse ways to die than to be shot, so it's not a bad way to go.

[Forge]

Trooper Dan, on 16 March 2020 - 12:45 AM, said:

A fair number of people would be dead, but not many young people.

[Danukem]

OccludeOlga, on 16 March 2020 - 02:19 AM, said:

It's this sort of failure to recognize the material you have to work with (culture, human nature)... instead of what you wish you had that is so baffling to me sometimes. So much time is wasted talking about what should be instead of what is. And yes I use the term baffling ironically... it makes perfect sense given the material we have to work with.

I try to act practically, but often think idealistically. It's human nature to complain about things we can't change. It isn't baffling that some of us enjoy noting bad behavior and complaining about it. Being surprised by bad behavior would be baffling, though.

[Hank]

OccludeOlga, on 15 March 2020 - 11:59 PM, said:

Well frankly, you are interpreting the death rate incorrectly. This is the most destructive virus we've seen in a century. If you couldn't spread it until you showed symptoms, then yeah it would be a giant who gives a shit. Ebola is insanely *deadly*, but damn near impossible to spread. We still don't know what followup waves look like and I also don't buy that construction isn't sensitive to human herd reactions to something that was already proven a couple months ago to be able to overwhelm a medical infrastructure with so many cases that even relatively simple cases were suddenly high risk.

BTW these are the current best places for raw updates:
https://nothingburger.today/
https://www.worldome...fo/coronavirus/

What I like about worldometers (besides them being the fastest to update currently) is the cases per million column in their data, and the "new today" column. The cases per million data gives a VERY different perspective because, for example, Switzerland is being hit hard but nobody is talking about it due to the lower population numbers overall.

And remember... all numbers you see about the flu are expanded projections based on past experience and smaller sample sets... not confirmed cases. All numbers you see about Corona Chan are "confirmed" cases therefore heavily under counted, not projections based on decades of experience. This is why any asshole coming along trying to compare the numbers is advertising their retardation and should be cut out of any future business dealings you might have with them unless you can reliably control the variables and just use them as a communication conduit.


If nothing happens and you get no big deal, then that means the actions worked. I just spent the weekend with my two retired parents. Once I convinced my mother that this isn't a democrat conspiracy to take down Trump, though they will certainly USE it for that, she quickly understood just how nasty this could be for her and the almost entirely post retirement age community she interacts with.

The virus is brand new. To have actual concrete data, you have to wait until the fear mongers are out of the picture and the pen-damming fury (pandemic) has run its course. What is missing, is the estimate on how many people were/are infected, in total; including those who have nothing more than cold symptoms and are not counted. Usually, actuaries are good with this. So I agree with some of your post, but not all.

OccludeOlga, on 15 March 2020 - 11:59 PM, said:

We are doing solid work, but I'm 99% sure you won't care about our new games... ahahahah.

You cain’t fool me. You are just waiting for everyone to stay home, and play your video games. As it was during the Great Depression. People paid hard cash to watch a scary movie. And they will pay again for a game that distracts them from hardship.

[PokeThePower]

Hank, on 16 March 2020 - 12:31 PM, said:

The virus is brand new. To have actual concrete data, you have to wait until the fear mongers are out of the picture and the pen-damming fury (pandemic) has run its course. What is missing, is the estimate on how many people were/are infected, in total; including those who have nothing more than cold symptoms and are not counted. Usually, actuaries are good with this. So I agree with some of your post, but not all.

Well I'm telling you that common sense was all that was needed in January to early February to predict the circumstance we now find ourselves in. I don't know what to say past that. Since we can't go back in time and rediscuss the data without hindsight it is irreconcilable. However I am firmly of the mind that anyone surprised to see what is unfolding in Western nations right now was deliberately not looking closely enough at easily the biggest event happening on the planet in China and trying to understand what it meant for them.

Hank, on 16 March 2020 - 12:31 PM, said:

You cain’t fool me. You are just waiting for everyone to stay home, and play your video games. As it was during the Great Depression. People paid hard cash to watch a scary movie. And they will pay again for a game that distracts them from hardship.

Honestly, I hate how my industry makes money. I'm good at it though so I keep doing it. And all this obnoxious liquidity injected into the system by world banks is very likely to wind up in entertainment development and UBI pleb payouts so you aren't entirely wrong. We'll see. Still a long way from having a product to actually generate revenue though and we may be back to business as usual by then.

[Mark]

After what I hope was a bottoming out, my stock its on a rebound. But will it last? I think its going to go sideways soon and for the next few months. Normally I would be ecstatic with the $28k increase just this week. But this was after a $135k loss in the previous month. Kind of took the thrill away.

[Radar]

The stock market is just a glorified form of gambling anyway.

[Hank]

[Mark]

Well Hank, tonight its my turn to rant. I just sent this to my brother who doesn't understand why I believe all the Republican BS.
He's not a fan of the left but he seems to hate the right. I'm not entirely sure why. We agree on most things. Must be because he isn't aware of which side is responsible for what in this country. He only watches local TV news so what little he consumes is heavy biased against the right.
-----------------------------------------------
Sorry for the rant but I need an outlet tonight. Also sorry for the rambling nature of my email. Its just too overloading.

Now the leftwing nutjobs are asking to abolish federal holidays like Washington's and Lincoln's birthday, Columbus day, 4th of July. They want Mount Rushmore torn down along with 100's more statues around the country. Rename streets, buildings, schools. They are demanding less and in some places no police force. On campuses you can no longer say "If you work hard and play by the rules you can succeed in this country." Republican guest speakers are denied access, bullied or disrupted and shut down sometimes with the help of their administrators. Democrat officials purposely step back and let BLM rioters take over portions of cities with the blessing of mayors and local councils. They actually condone what the mobs are doing. All whites are racist, all men are rapists. Consenting heterosexual sex is rape. We must support gay and trannies, not just tolerate them. They want completely open borders. In fact, some want to abolish the whole concept of borders. In Virginia I think it was, they are attempting to pass a law that would change assaulting a cop to a misdemeanor. They want to give the vote to felons behind bars and all immigrants. Immigrants, legal and illegal are being allowed to vote in some state and local elections. They want increased voting by mail and internet which is ripe with fraud. They fight tooth and nail to not clean up or purge their voter rolls of duplicates and dead people. They have stated time and again how our country was founded by evil racist slave owning white men. The constitution they made is garbage and needs to be rewritten. Obama himself is on video saying he does not like the limits the Constitution puts on goverment. They want to take away our guns. Replace Capitalism. They have run a socialist 2 elections in a row. They have elected a gang of anti-american Muslim nutjobs to various offices. Political correctness gone wild in all parts of our culture. They want to abolish fossil fuels before we even have a realistic alternative. They want free healthcare, free college, free child care. Spend trillions to fight global warming which includes denying of certain freedoms of what we can do and what we can buy or not buy. I'm thinking now about dad's forecast of doom and gloom with Republicans in charge. I think he was worrying about the wrong party.

I could go on for pages but why. I'm a simpleton that believes all the RepublicanBS even though everything I've said is heavily sourced for those who want to know. No need for you to respond.

[Radar]

Just send him this.

[Mark]

Its time for me to put the brakes on my political consumption. When I retired in Dec of 2018 I made the decision to cut way back and felt much better for it. Especially in this last 6 months or so its been creeping back up since the left is not trying to hide their agenda any more and its a non-stop barrage of their antics. There is just too much crap going on to stay quiet.

We are well past the point of ever changing an opponent's mind on something thru discussions here. Its been firmly entrenched in my mind what we are up against with the lefties and I don't need to keep on getting slapped in the face with it every day on tv, radio and internet. So I'll attempt to go back to an occasional small comment here and there along with a funny pic or two along with watching less cable news. Not cut it off altogether but try to find something else first.

It sucks knowing that I'm playing into the left's hands by shutting up but I need the break.

[Balls of Steel Forever]

Mark, on 03 July 2020 - 08:48 AM, said:

Especially in this last 6 months or so its been creeping back up since the left is not trying to hide their agenda

Its been firmly entrenched in my mind what we are up against with the lefties and I don't need to keep on getting slapped in the face with it every day on tv, radio and internet.

It sucks knowing that I'm playing into the left's hands by shutting up but I need the break.

I'm probably one of the more hardcore lefties on this site, but I want you to understand that the left is politically diverse and not 1 hive mind like the Borgs or the Cyber Men. We do not all think the same way.

In my ideal scenario we get rid of the house and replace it with a direct democracy, and there should be a direct democracy at all levels of government.

We have the ability to do this with todays technology, along with the ability to give more powers to the states so we can go back to being a Confederacy and no longer allow the national level of government to be so incredibly corrupt.

Yes, I do favor a "benevolent" monarchy or dictatorship over our current scenario, but I don't ever want it to come to that.

I just want this systemic corruption to go away, funding slavery and non humanitarian practices, to no longer exist, and for those that are unable to work to financially take care of themselves.

That's all I want.

[Hank]

Let's take a break from complaining about America to celebrate America.

[Kyanos]

Balls Of Steel Forever, on 03 July 2020 - 09:50 AM, said:

I just want this systemic corruption to go away, funding slavery and non humanitarian practices, to no longer exist, and for those that are unable to work to financially take care of themselves.

"If you want peace, prepare for war."

At least that's what the shillbots have been repeating for the past week.

[Danukem]

Balls Of Steel Forever, on 03 July 2020 - 09:50 AM, said:

In my ideal scenario we get rid of the house and replace it with a direct democracy, and there should be a direct democracy at all levels of government.

Balls Of Steel Forever, on 03 July 2020 - 09:50 AM, said:

We have the ability to do this with todays technology, along with the ability to give more powers to the states so we can go back to being a Confederacy and no longer allow the national level of government to be so incredibly corrupt.

These statements seem inconsistent. Wouldn't direct democracy "at all levels of government" completely erase the rights of individual states? On a related note, why do you mention the house but neglect to mention the senate, when the senate is a much bigger obstacle to direct democracy than the house?

[MC84]

Balls Of Steel Forever, on 03 July 2020 - 09:50 AM, said:

I'm probably one of the more hardcore lefties on this site...

Yes, I do favor a "benevolent" monarchy or dictatorship over our current scenario, but I don't ever want it to come to that...

I'm not trying to grill you here - but why of all alternatives do you propose a benevolent monarchy? I ask because as someone who identifies as right-leaning, the extreme form of right wing thought actually embraces monarchy as the ideal system of government. Or perhaps more specifically something along the lines of Plato's "Philosopher King". Monarchy implies differences between individuals, and that the best (ideally in a moral sense) has the right to rule.. whereas from my experience left-leaning types embrace egalitarianism and therefore reject inherent differences between groups and individuals, so logically speaking (from my understanding) the idea of the 'best' ruling others is absurd to a leftist. Please explain

[Kyanos]

Horseshoe theory. The far left and far right are closer to each other than centrism.
While I'm at it...
21st Century Republicians are Center Left 90's Democrats tier corporationalists.
The donkeys are just asses these days.
Antifa can't remember what fascism even is.
Cultural Owellianism, wear the mask or I'm telling.
ps. here in Ontario the hotline for tatling was 311, but that was too damn obvious so it changed to a 1800 # within days.

[Balls of Steel Forever]

Trooper Dan, on 03 July 2020 - 12:58 PM, said:

These statements seem inconsistent. Wouldn't direct democracy "at all levels of government" completely erase the rights of individual states? On a related note, why do you mention the house but neglect to mention the senate, when the senate is a much bigger obstacle to direct democracy than the house?

I probably should have elaborated better.

Most things would be handled in a state by state direct democracy, enabling states rights, other things that need to be handled on a national level, military, form of currency, foreign affairs would be handled that way.

The house is made to represent popular vote, it seems like an easy shoe in for a direct democracy replacement.

The Senate would stay to prevent tyranny of the majority.

Get rid of most of the powers of the president and just make him purely a bully pulpit

MC84, on 03 July 2020 - 01:20 PM, said:

I'm not trying to grill you here - but why of all alternatives do you propose a benevolent monarchy? I ask because as someone who identifies as right-leaning, the extreme form of right wing thought actually embraces monarchy as the ideal system of government. Or perhaps more specifically something along the lines of Plato's "Philosopher King". Monarchy implies differences between individuals, and that the best (ideally in a moral sense) has the right to rule.. whereas from my experience left-leaning types embrace egalitarianism and therefore reject inherent differences between groups and individuals, so logically speaking (from my understanding) the idea of the 'best' ruling others is absurd to a leftist. Please explain

All current communist states are dictatorships, there's authoritarian socialism, and libertarian socialism,
communist states fall under authoritarian socialism, a benevolent socialist monarchy would be the same thing.

In essence I prefer communism over the current state of affairs, the best although still horrible representation would be pre-1980 Yugoslavia.

Mainly because in such a case we know who to blame, everyone has their place, and there's less corruption.

I much much rather prefer libertarian socialism, that is the people to retain most of the power.

However tyranny of the majority must be prevented because the majority most of the time is fucking stupid.

I mainly want the people to no longer have to blame the intangible for their mistakes, but to blame themselves.

[Radar]

Balls Of Steel Forever, on 03 July 2020 - 03:59 PM, said:

In essence I prefer communism over the current state of affairs, the best although still horrible representation would be pre-1980 Yugoslavia.

You and my dad would probably get along really well. My dad loved Ceausescu-era communism. In those days everyone was forced to get a job, commieblocks provided housing, and since it wasn't Russia a decent amount of Western tech, entertainment, and news were imported and easily accessible. Americans definitely have a different mindset, as freedom is seen as a goal unto itself, even if some people are worse off with their own liberty.

[MC84]

Balls Of Steel Forever, on 03 July 2020 - 03:59 PM, said:

..mainly because in such a case we know who to blame, everyone has their place, and there's less corruption.

I much much rather prefer libertarian socialism, that is the people to retain most of the power.

However tyranny of the majority must be prevented because the majority most of the time is fucking stupid.

I mainly want the people to no longer have to blame the intangible for their mistakes, but to blame themselves.

Well I'd certainly agree with some of your views.. I agree that one benefit of an absolute ruler is that corruption will be less pervasive, and the constituents can actually hold an individual accountable, which we can't really do in our bureaucratic age. In a utopian world I'd be a libertarian, but to my mind the masses are too ignorant, and only want freedom without any personal responsibility... so I've abandoned that ideal long ago. In my mind an oppressive state is an outgrowth of an infantile population that wish to be ruled. Percy Shelly summed it up pretty well when he said "Governments will disappear when men are good and wise"... we're clearly a LONG way from getting to that point.

[Danukem]

https://www.the-sun....k-full-support/

So which major political party would Kanye West siphon more votes from?

EDIT: I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict that of the 187 votes that West gets, 31 of them would have gone for Trump, 23 of them would have gone to Biden, and the rest are people who would not have voted at all otherwise.

[Radar]

All I know is his new single sucks. Back to mumble crapping again.