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Different Low Tags for Special Sound Effects  "Changing the Low Tag values to compensate for 4096 sound definitions"

User is offline   rkilyan 

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#1

Originally Zaxtor and I came up with this idea during a conversation about changing the cache size for Eduke32 and Mapster32. We ended up talking about different LOW TAGS for special sound effects, such as One Time Sounds and Echoes, and how that could be a problem with 1000+ sound definitions.

We came up with these ideas:

Sound definitions are 0 to 4096, however there could be up to 9999 sound definitions one day. I don't know if that only applies to AMC TC. I'm at 824 as of now with the standard EDuke32 r7657, so maybe I can have up to 4096 sound definitions too.

One Time Sound 10000+ (10,000). Add this to the sound value to get 10000 to 14096. It is already this way, but I'm not sure if Mapster32 is expecting to have something added to the 4th zero from the right.

Echo 100000+ (100,000). Sounds in the thousands range would become a problem because 1000+ means an echo effect.

The only major snag would be how to update everyone's maps. I would think Mapster32 would need to make the changes the first time a map is loaded, and let the user know the changes have been applied.

Here are some examples:

For a One Time Sound using 555:
Current - LOW TAG = 10555
Future - LOW TAG = 10555

For a One Time Sound using 2000:
Current - LOW TAG = 12000
Future - LOW TAG = 12000


For an Echo Effect:
Current - LOW TAG = 1100
Future - LOW TAG = 101100


What would happen if you have an ambient sound of 1100?
Current - LOW TAG = 1100 is this an echo, an ambient, or both? From the conversation it sounds like it is both. That sprite is not suppose to be echoing, it is only for the ambient sound.
Future - LOW TAG = 1100 for the ambient sound,
and the only way there would be an echo is if the LOW TAG =100000+.

This is theoretical, and to make Mapster32 smart enough to update the LOW TAGS would be the hardest part.

By the way, it would be easier to read 1,000, 10,000, and 100,000, rather than 1000, 10000, and 100000.

This post has been edited by rkilyan: 08 June 2019 - 11:05 AM

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User is online   Mark 

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#2

I just took a peek at the sound folder of AMC 3. It has over 3,000 sound files. Find out how Jblade has dealt with avoiding the unwanted echo on sounds in that range.

This post has been edited by Mark: 08 June 2019 - 05:00 PM

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User is offline   Jblade 

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#3

music and sound fx sprite only works with sounds under a 1000. its not worth the effort to fix this because I don't see anybody using 1000 different environment or door sounds.


This post has been edited by Jblade: 08 June 2019 - 10:41 PM

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User is offline   Zaxtor 

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#4

So for AMC TC you avoid the 1000+ ish and goto a safer spot

If stuff under 1000 uses Echo like let say sound 483

Trequonia TC's Status:
Levels : 100% done - Textures : 100% done - Sounds : 100% done - Musics :100% done
Mod is finished, going to test it.
Trequonia's Official website
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User is offline   rkilyan 

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#5

View PostJblade, on 08 June 2019 - 10:40 PM, said:

music and sound fx sprite only works with sounds under a 1000. its not worth the effort to fix this because I don't see anybody using 1000 different environment or door sounds.

Yes that is true. However, that is what my topic is about. I want someone to experiment with changing the way Mapster32 makes an Echo Effect.

Maybe if someone's mod. has 6 episodes each with 20 maps, then maybe it might be necessary. However, 4 episodes each with 11 maps seems to be the max for now. I have 4 episodes each with 11 maps, and I don't even have a reason for that many sounds.

Now that I think of it. Why mess with all of the fancy Low Tag stuff? Perhaps the Echo Effect should be dependent on the palette of the sprite for both AMC and EDuke32 as a new standard. Of course there would still have to be an update procedure. Maybe Mapster32 could be made to detect if there are sound definitions over 999. If there are, then prompt the user with:

WARNING - There are more than 999 sound definitions!
WARNING - 1000+ is no longer used for the Echo Effect!
WARNING - There are music and sound fx sprites with a low tag higher then 999!


Do you want to update the sprite's palette to one (1) for it to still perform the intended Echo Effect?

PRESS 'Y' to update
OR
PRESS 'N' to do a manual update, music and sound fx are already set for a non-Echo Effect, or if you have already done this before


Mapster32 should ALWAYS ask this IF
1) there are more then 999 sound definitions in the .CON files
AND
2) there are no blue (palette 1) music and sound fx sprites (blue sprites would indicate the change was already done)

This is done just in case someone doesn't know what the warnings mean, and erroneously hits 'N' and don't get stuck with manually updating their maps.

However, someone could still make the mistake of overriding an ambient sound of 1020 by hitting 'Y', and turning it to an Echo Effect.

Hmm...
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User is offline   rkilyan 

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#6

View PostJblade, on 08 June 2019 - 10:40 PM, said:

music and sound fx sprite only works with sounds under a 1000. its not worth the effort to fix this because I don't see anybody using 1000 different environment or door sounds.

I think I have it!

How about just turn off the Echo Effect by making the sprite blue (palette 1). Forget all of the Low Tag games and update voodoo for an opportunity that leads to disaster.

If the Low Tag you have is 1000 or over then just make it palette 1 to deactivate the Echo Effect.

So, you have a music and sound fx sprite, but you DO NOT want it to echo

LoTag = 1025
HiTag = 8000
Palette = 1 (Blue)
- overrides the Echo Effect, and 1025 is treated as an Ambient Sound only.

I think I need to pass this onto a developer.
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User is offline   Hendricks266 

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  #7

It's all fun and games until you find existing maps that have pal 1 (edit: MUSICANDSFX) effectors for no reason.
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User is offline   Forge 

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#8

darn those pesky multi-player maps!
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User is online   Gaydar 

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#9

Noob multi-player maps have effectors? You give them too much credit.

Scan complete
Gay posts detected by user:
johnnythewolf
GAY LEVELS CRITICAL
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User is offline   rkilyan 

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#10

Alright, I'll put what others have typed about altogether.

It does not seem necessary to modify special LoTag values, update maps, or the palette of the MUSICANDSFX.
Remember, We're assuming there are over 1,000 sound definitions, and the cache size has been increased to handle it.

Here's what leads to a solution, or at least a recommendation:
1) We do not need to have consecutive sound definitions. I've tested that with EDuke32 and I have not found any problems.
2) In The Official Duke Nukem 3D Level Design Handbook, by Matt Tagliaferri, chapter 6, page 123, he indicates that a LoTag value of 1000 to 1255 defines an Echo Effect for a MUSICANDSFX.

Therefore the sound definitions could stop at 999 and start back up at 1256. Avoiding the sound definition values of 1000 to 1255 means no conflict with the Echo Effect. The LoTag values of 1000 to 1255 are untouched, and are free for the Echo Effect.

It seems what we have is fine. Maybe nothing needs to be radically changed after all.

Thanks for the patience, help, and input.

This post has been edited by rkilyan: 10 June 2019 - 08:21 PM

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User is offline   rkilyan 

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#11

View Postrkilyan, on 10 June 2019 - 08:15 PM, said:


Therefore the sound definitions could stop at 999 and start back up at 1256. Avoiding the sound definition values of 1000 to 1255 means no conflict with the Echo Effect. The LoTag values of 1000 to 1255 are untouched, and are free for the Echo Effect.


Using EDuke32 (r7657), and NOT AMC TC.

I did some more testing and found out that 998 is the highest you can currently go in EDuke32 with sound definitions. Also for some odd reason 1256 and on display REVERB even though, the last time I checked, it only goes from a LoTag of 1000 to 1255 as the Echo Effect, or REVERB as Mapster32 displays it.

Mark's and my solution, quoted all the way at the top, for now, may only apply to AMC TC; it does not seem to work with EDuke32.

This is why I like to test this stuff, and this is why you should test stuff too.

It still could be a good idea for AMC TC and a future release of EDuke32.

Thanks again Mark and everyone else.

This post has been edited by rkilyan: 14 June 2019 - 03:13 PM

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User is online   Mark 

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#12

I expect a gold star and a chocolate chip cookie. ;)
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User is offline   rkilyan 

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#13

View PostMark, on 14 June 2019 - 03:07 PM, said:

I expect a gold star and a chocolate chip cookie. ;)


Made with EditArt and
Extracted with BAFed.

See Attachments.

Attached thumbnail(s)

  • Attached Image: GOLD STAR.png
  • Attached Image: CCC.png

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User is online   Mark 

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#14

:lol:
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User is offline   rkilyan 

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#15

There is a slight technicality that I missed with some of my last few posts. Technically stating "998 is the highest you can currently go in EDuke32 with sound definitions", is vague.

I'm not quite sure about the following terminology, it has been about 10 years since I've done any programming, but the principle is there.

0 to 998 are the index numbers assigned to the sound objects, and are the LoTag values used in the MUSICANDSFX sprite. Counting 0, there are actually 999 sound definitions.

Therefore, 998 is the highest index value that is recognized by Mapster32 and EDuke32, and 999 is the maximum amount of sound definitions Mapster32 and EDuke32 can have.
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