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I just want a proper new expansion

User is offline   Sanek 

#31

View PostRadar, on 22 May 2019 - 08:51 AM, said:

He might be talking about the 'Endangered Species' game that was canceled. That game had some sick models based on DN3D weapons too. It was not an expansion.

AFAIK the devs (Action Forms) later used the assets for their own game called Vivisector: Beast Within

I agree with what you all said that World Tour was not a proper new expansion for Duke3D.
Everybody have their own merits of what a "proper expansion" should be, but I think that the important part of doing it is to make the expansion that will stay true to its roots (in terms of level design, theme selection) and at the same time, become the new ultimate version of the game. Sunstorm's addons was a solid pieces of work, but none of it made the same impact as Plutonium Pak, and what we really need is a new Plutonium.

This post has been edited by Sanek: 22 May 2019 - 09:05 AM

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User is offline   Sledgehammer 

  • A legacy so far removed, One day will be improved.

#32

The art for it was great too.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cqy2SAeWgAAP1HR.jpg
7

User is offline   Radar 

  • Banned on TheGearPage

#33

Looked like a great concept. This is the direction Duke should have taken IMO. Future installments should have been designed to tackle different settings, not the DN3D canyon/city/space/alien theme that DNF ended up copping.

This post has been edited by Radar: 23 May 2019 - 02:00 PM

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User is offline   Sledgehammer 

  • A legacy so far removed, One day will be improved.

#34

Yeah, there are many good concepts where Duke could suit well. Time To Kill or Zero Hour were pretty different games that were using Time Travel gimmick which of course is still closer to Duke 3D, along with Land of the Babes. I think Life is a Beach (with Duke it out DC where you have to safe the president) were kind of there.

This post has been edited by Sledgehammer: 23 May 2019 - 04:52 PM

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User is offline   MrFlibble 

#35

View PostSanek, on 22 May 2019 - 08:59 AM, said:

Everybody have their own merits of what a "proper expansion" should be, but I think that the important part of doing it is to make the expansion that will stay true to its roots (in terms of level design, theme selection) and at the same time, become the new ultimate version of the game. Sunstorm's addons was a solid pieces of work, but none of it made the same impact as Plutonium Pak, and what we really need is a new Plutonium.

Personally I don't think that at this point, "officialdom" of the levels matters a lot. At some point in a game's life cycle, it continues through the community, not the original developers (who have moved on to other things anyway) or copyright holders. Duke3D has been lucky to have been released with a great degree of moddability, a versatile level editor and the source code, all of which are great factors for preserving the game and keeping it alive.

It would be certainly an interesting experiment to try creating an expansion that would stick to the design principles of the original game, but at this point in time it would be more of a style thing to keep to the framework of the 90s level design, with many limitations arising simply from the performance limits imposed by contemporary hardware back then. I think that even from the start, creativity was mainly in pushing beyond existing limits (as in trying to make the levels more interactive and realistic than what had been done before, for example), and the community mods and expansions that we have today are doing just that.

With this in mind. I'm not even sure that a new Plutonium Pack from any official developers could be at all possible. Alien World Order is probably the closest thing you can get (even if it isn't too close after all). But I agree with the sentiment expressed above, that an episode by Nerve Software could probably turn out very good, and if John Romero did some levels (after all he listed Duke3D back in 1997 as one of his top ten favourite games) that would certainly be very interesting.
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User is offline   Sanek 

#36

View PostMrFlibble, on 25 May 2019 - 04:11 AM, said:


It would be certainly an interesting experiment to try creating an expansion that would stick to the design principles of the original game, but at this point in time it would be more of a style thing to keep to the framework of the 90s level design, with many limitations arising simply from the performance limits imposed by contemporary hardware back then. I think that even from the start, creativity was mainly in pushing beyond existing limits (as in trying to make the levels more interactive and realistic than what had been done before, for example), and the community mods and expansions that we have today are doing just that.


Fernando Márquez already done it with his FMX series. The first episode was not that good IMO, but ever since Orbital Oblivion, the guy aboslutely nailed it when it comes to that classic 3DR level design. If there'll ever be a new "proper expansion" from the community, I can't think of a better mapper for such a job.
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#37

I agree here. Fernando Marquez episodes are way to go. Esspecially that lots of his levels, essepically from his second episode, those space themed levels are alot inspired by pre-release screenshots of Duke Nukem 3D. He made something that what could look like if 3D Realms published their scraped and thrown out levels from early beta versions of Duke to the public. Really great stuff.
3

#38

Fernando's maps are unnecessarily complicated, they have confusing layouts, and not very organic gameplay/design. It's pretty much the DTWID for Duke, except worse as DTWID had some nice levels. Honestly I've never seen any usermappers who nailed the concept what was created by Allen Blum back in 1996. The closest one was George W Bernard with his amazing LRWB TC, but even that one couldn't make through the filter that separates an okay commercial levelpack from a great user levelpack. For example some levels reused areas from other levels (others reused concepts from the original game, like Stadium or Dark Side), it was often too dark or oversized, and the difficulty is too high which was indicated with the 125 HP start. Another good one was DNF TC 2013, but it also has a number of flaws, like unnecessary mimics of the DNF trailer, and some buggy enemies. And it changed too many things to consider it an organic Duke sequel. If it was a Gearbox commercial release it would have been massacred.

If you think about it, Travis and Wieder are still the men, who came closest to a proper commercial quality with Caribbean (and to a lesser extent, DC). They didn't mimic anything, they just created their own organic style within the respected limiatations of the original game. Their job was pretty much the same as the Casalis' job were in Plutonia. Again, Plutonia didn't copy anything, it created a new, memorable style, within the respected limits of the original game.

As far as Doom goes, I still think The Castle and Squibbons (who are professional designers, not just fan artists) nailed the classic style the most. At this moment, I can't think of anything else other than NRFTL (and Castle's map from 2017, and of course Romero's new levels) that looked like something "official". There were some very good, even excellent fanworks, but none of them look like something that can be sold as an official expansion. Neither single levels, nor levelpacks. Duke has the same fate, when I saw Mirage Barrage and Golden Carnage from Blum, I said, this is something like a commercial work.

This post has been edited by Nancsi: 25 May 2019 - 07:10 AM

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User is offline   Radar 

  • Banned on TheGearPage

#39

I would say even 3DR couldn't capture the essence of the original game with episode 4. It is very different in flow and setting than the original 3 episodes. And even the original 3 episodes are very different from each other. The game itself went through so many phases during development. I'm reluctant to admit if even 3DR knew the exact formula on how to make a Duke episode. The game itself seems to have just come together in the end.
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#40

View PostRadar, on 25 May 2019 - 07:22 AM, said:

I would say even 3DR couldn't capture the essence of the original game with episode 4. It is very different in flow and setting than the original 3 episodes. And even the original 3 episodes are very different from each other. The game itself went through so many phases during development. I'm reluctant to admit if even 3DR knew the exact formula on how to make a Duke episode. The game itself seems to have just come together in the end.


You're actually right, that's why I said Blum and not 3DR. Blum's maps are the ones with the actual Duke style, and his work can be found mostly in episode 1 and 2, which are the two real canonic or classic episodes of Duke imho. Episode 3 other than Freeway was a Levelord pack, and it clearly felt different (and rushed), despite some very good levels there (the most classic looking one somehow didn't make into the game, possibly because it was too episode 1-ish). Episode 4 was like Doom's episode 4, a map pack without an actual concept, too many people worked on it, too many people hacked Levelord's unfinished maps. But if you look at Duke Burger, Going Postal or Derelict, the obvious "canonic" Duke style is clearly visible in them, because they were made by the man who created Duke, and stick to him through the development hell of DNF to Alien World Order, when he managed to make more classic stlye maps as well.

I think Duke 3D is Blum's concept, and Blum's game (although Todd Replogle deserve credits too), like Doom was basically Romero's game (Petersen was the Levelord of the Doom mappers). While offtopic, I'm wondering who will be THE Ion Maiden mapper. I know there will be 5 designers, but I also feel the concept guy will be DavoX. His segments somehow defined the art style of the game more than other people's segments (although Daedolon's subway segment was amazing too).
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User is offline   gerolf 

  • Honored Donor

#41

Duke Hard felt to me like a brand new episode for the game.
0

User is offline   Commando Nukem 

  • Judge Mental

#42

We're beyond that. Duke needs a whole new ground up game experience.

What DNF was aiming to be in it's early years is a direction i'd like to see it go. A continuation of the darker atmosphere, with Duke giving the color to the world, na dI really relaly think that much like what Doom 2016 did, in terms of breaking down what made Doom good and reassmbling as a modern game, is what a potential future Duke game would need to do.

My focus, if it were me, would be on the action-movie-as-a-game sorta conceit of Duke3D. Exploring that futher. big guns, one-liners, all that good stuff. But taking the environmental interactivity and creativity with the kills up. Taking pages from games like Postal for example. It's all about making things in the world interact with one another, making the levels in a more traditional first person shooter style, with non-linear paths that follow through, and then filling those with set dressing that let you take on the aliens how ever you want. Choices. Encourage the player to be like Bronson, Eastwood, Stallone, Schwarzenegger.

I've referenced the scene in Live Free or Die Hard where John McClane is fighting the terrorists in the apartment building, and he grabs a fire extinguisher off the wall, throws it, and shoots it. Causing one bad guy to go flying out of a window, and the other to recoil in horror. Now just take that concept and study your game environments. What can you do with the objects in the world? What could you do that would be unique to Duke in terms of gameplay functionality? What if you could set your character's state, similar to Crysis? IF if you set it to brawler, it's all about grabbing and huffing s hit, using your physical prowess to Hulk-smash, or instead of being in brawler mode you're in a defensive mode, and it's all about grabbing shit to protect yourself?

Just some of my thoughts and ideas. The problem is they keep trying to hold onto the nostalgia of Duke 3D, and in some of the worst ways. Literally turning into an ego stroke. We already had Duke3D. It's grreat! We don't need it again. That's one of the reasons the old DNF games looked compelling. They were Duke, and you could feel it, but they were not Duke 3D II. They were the NEXT, NEW, Duke game.

DNF, as we got it, was one part pain, and one part nostalgia.
5

User is online   fuegerstef 

#43

View PostCommando Nukem, on 25 May 2019 - 06:11 PM, said:

...
Now just take that concept and study your game environments. What can you do with the objects in the world? What could you do that would be unique to Duke in terms of gameplay functionality?
...


This.

Additionally I'd say the following: If you introduce new enemies, do it the way thje player learns that enemy. Don't hide it in the chaos when you fight several other already known enemies, do it a situation where only that enemy is around or at least almost only. Let the player learan that enemy for gameplay and design reasons.

Then look at a theme for the expansion and follow it through til the end: From story, to level design to textures to enemies and even music.
2

User is offline   MrFlibble 

#44

View PostNancsi, on 25 May 2019 - 07:36 AM, said:

Episode 3 other than Freeway was a Levelord pack, and it clearly felt different (and rushed), despite some very good levels there (the most classic looking one somehow didn't make into the game, possibly because it was too episode 1-ish).

Which one are you referring to?

BTW, can anyone please suggest some good user maps with a similar theme as the urban levels in LameDuke? I mean more open and nonlinear areas than in the official cityscape maps.
https://www.mobygames.com/images/promo/original/1476032469-2155680276.png https://www.mobygames.com/images/promo/original/1476032471-254402226.png https://www.mobygames.com/images/promo/original/1476032472-2526952387.png

If LameDuke textures are used that would be a nice bonus. The colour scheme somehow manages to convey a very different mood from that in the final release. BTW, I think there were some LameDuke TCs but 3DR took them down, or am I things wrong?
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#45

View PostMrFlibble, on 26 May 2019 - 10:21 AM, said:

BTW, can anyone please suggest some good user maps with a similar theme as the urban levels in LameDuke? I mean more open and nonlinear areas than in the official cityscape maps.

I've recently played Ruinas (this one is not exactly located in a city), made by Daniel Ferrer Gallegos, the others 3 maps looks like are based on cities (i didn't played them yet), but i think are pretty intense like Ruinas, there are hordes of monsters to kill:

http://www.arrovfnuk...ferrer-gallegos
http://www.arrovfnuk...ferrer-gallegos
http://www.arrovfnuk...ferrer-gallegos
http://www.arrovfnuk...ferrer-gallegos
The screen shots you posted looks nice too.



1

#46

If you want Lameduke style mapping, try Traffic Jam, which has a large segment ripped from a LD level.

Btw. I was referring to Sewer, which was more Blum/E1 style, despite made by Levelord for E3.
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User is offline   Jim Rockford 

  • Banned on Rigel

#47

World Tour was panned because it was rushed, trite, uninspired garbage that relied on gimmicks rather than just being good.

And Alien Armageddon is basically just boneless Aeons of Death with cringe hentai elements.

This post has been edited by Jimmy 100MPH: 30 May 2019 - 11:30 AM

-4

User is offline   Radar 

  • Banned on TheGearPage

#48

View PostJimmy 100MPH, on 30 May 2019 - 11:28 AM, said:

And Alien Armageddon is basically just boneless Aeons of Death with cringe hentai elements.


https://i.imgur.com/Bo5BxaW.jpg

This post has been edited by Radar: 30 May 2019 - 12:56 PM

2

User is online   Trooper Dan 

  • Duke Plus Developer

#49

Quote

Ĉons of Death is a massive compilation wad that brings together monsters, weapons, and items from numerous games, such as Heretic, Hexen, Quake, Quake 2, etc.
It uses a randomization code which causes any monster or weapon in a certain class to spawn a random monster or weapon respectively. For example, in place of an imp, a snake imp, a catharsi, or one of several others might appear. Also, in place of a shotgun, a SPAS Shotgun or the Flare Gun from Blood might appear. This guarantees that it will never be the same game twice.


The randomization does sound similar to some other mods I have done prior to AA. I'm guessing Jimmy just assumed that I was up to my old tricks again without actually bothering to play it (there is pretty much zero randomization in AA unless you play the original 3DR episodes with randomization turned on).

It's a lazy jab directed at me, but it's very unfair to sebabdukeboss20 to be smeared with it, since he contributed a huge amount of high quality original sprite work, very little of which could be labeled "hentai". The main reason AA exists is the glorious and original monster sprites that sebabdukeboss20 created. That's the exact opposite of throwing in random monsters ripped from other games.
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User is offline   Commando Nukem 

  • Judge Mental

#50

View PostJimmy 100MPH, on 30 May 2019 - 11:28 AM, said:

World Tour was panned because it was rushed, trite, uninspired garbage that relied on gimmicks rather than just being good.



Yes.

View PostJimmy 100MPH, on 30 May 2019 - 11:28 AM, said:

And Alien Armageddon is basically just boneless Aeons of Death with cringe hentai elements.


No.

NO!





0

User is offline   Jim Rockford 

  • Banned on Rigel

#51

Lmao y'all mad
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User is offline   Noddy 

#52

Did anyone see Jon St. John Twitter post:

https://twitter.com/...995911926337536

Also, there is a change.org petition for a new Duke game and a petition for a DNF game. Here are the links:

https://www.change.o...e-nukem-forever

https://www.change.o...duke-nukem-game

Found this on Civvie 11 Twiter
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#53

View PostCommando Nukem, on 30 May 2019 - 12:47 PM, said:

Yes.



No.

NO!






No.
Yes.
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User is offline   Sanek 

#54

View PostJimmy 100MPH, on 30 May 2019 - 11:28 AM, said:

And Alien Armageddon is basically just boneless Aeons of Death with cringe hentai elements.


That's what can be called the necessary evil, since there would be no AA without sebadukeboss200 and his magnieficent sprites. And it's OK with me.
It reminds me when I was making the gangster-themed The Chronic episode with Zykov Eddy 10 years ago, he literally forced me to include some Sonic references and some obnoxious anime music in the final map.
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User is offline   Jim Rockford 

  • Banned on Rigel

#55

I laughed out loud at the Bombshell sprite. The open pants are probably the cringiest thing I've ever witnessed in a "serious" Duke mod.
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User is online   Phredreeke 

#56

Yeah, I enjoyed Alien Armageddon and it's one of the few mods I've played through from start to finish.

Also with the discontinuing of the Megaton Edition it's the only way to play the Sunstorm expansions without buying an old CD or downloading a copy from an "abandonware" site

https://i.imgur.com/uOCcB1h.gif

(as for Bombshell's unzipped pants... that's reflecting the old art made of her - but there is the alternative costume for her ingame)
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User is online   Trooper Dan 

  • Duke Plus Developer

#57

View PostPhredreeke, on 02 June 2019 - 05:15 PM, said:

(as for Bombshell's unzipped pants... that's reflecting the old art made of her - but there is the alternative costume for her ingame)


The alternative costume with properly zipped pants was made after Jimmy's initial comment on a pre-release screenshot. It's important to look for merit in feedback regardless of the tone it is offered in. :)
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User is offline   Radar 

  • Banned on TheGearPage

#58

View PostJimmy 100MPH, on 02 June 2019 - 05:11 PM, said:

I laughed out loud at the Bombshell sprite. The open pants are probably the cringiest thing I've ever witnessed in a "serious" Duke mod.


SHE'S ON HER PERIOD OK.
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User is offline   Jim Rockford 

  • Banned on Rigel

#59

Hahahah holy fuck I love you Radar
1

User is offline   Radar 

  • Banned on TheGearPage

#60

Love you too man :dukeego:
1

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