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I just want a proper new expansion

User is offline   pacman 

#1

A new proper episode, new proper enemies. Something that is good and makes sense. See: Atomic. Do not see: Half assed attempts at this (do I need to name them).
0

User is offline   oasiz 

  • Dr. Effector

#2

Options:

A) A modder team gets excited and does an expansion pack which in turn can be a high quality TC but if it's not a commercial release, the audience and spread will be limited. No future mods will use content from it or use it as a base. Lacking key resources like additional voice acting, It's still seen as a "non pure" mod rather than as a true version bump that should be the de-facto version from there on (and content based on it / it's assets/effects), no matter how good.

B ) A modder team, teams up with gbx to do an expansion for practically free, this will get more exposure but WT already sold miserably so budget is practically nonexistant and likely will still be rejected by the community as it's still seen more as a fanfic than something by the original guys.
B.1) However the modding team gets paid enough to motivate them and is well lead so that there is a coherent experience and not just 5 guys working on their own thing, resulting in a nice product.
B.2) Modding team doesn't get properly lead and compensated, you end up with a ragtag group of people who each have their own vision of this expansion and you end up with an incoherent mess.

C) You try to create a new expansion pack with limited resources and get some of the original cast to reprise their roles in order to create something as close to atomic as possible.
... oh wait, this was already tried and rejected by the community outright

I only see B.1 as a viable option but even that has been trashed due to Duke simply being dead, WT was the final nail.
WT is as close as it will get, having been out for ~2 years it's a bit sad that the good parts of it can't be embraced and have the energy be channeled into making something out of it that everyone can enjoy rather than waiting for something impossible and making armchair demands. (not directed at you)

These kind of results are usually the combination of simply not having enough money to pour for something like this.
I doubt anyone looking at WT will be very motivated to do a duke expansion in the way of C or B so back to A it is.
At least I'm hopeful that in the future A can be applied to WT and elevate it to something that can be considered better parts of B and C.
1

User is online   Mark 

  • Honored Donor

#3

"proper" doesn't give us much to go on. Do you mean like Duke Caribbean where the original enemies dressed to fit the theme? Or new enemies? Or what???
Also, without knowing what you didn't like about previous attempts, its tough to figure out what you want. You need to be way more specific.

This post has been edited by Mark: 11 May 2019 - 02:37 PM

1

#4

That would be cool, but as other guys already pointed out, WT was kind off this expansion, although it didn't got accepted by community very well though. What i actually thought off would be if someone make Episode 5 with Atomic Edition content only. You see, we already had Luanr Apocalypse and Shrapnel City with Registered content, while only one episode with Atomic Edition content and that is The Birth. Another episode featuring Atomic Edition Content would be nice. And in this case i wouldn't add any new boss creature, instead i would make Final Boss level to contain all previous bosses Duke fought at one place - that's right, Battlelord, Overlord, Cycrloid Emperor and The Queen, all together at same place in same Final Boss level. This is my opinion of course.
0

User is offline   Phredreeke 

#5

View Postpacman, on 11 May 2019 - 11:50 AM, said:

A new proper episode, new proper enemies.


Does Alien Armageddon depart too far from the original for your taste? Because there's a shitton of new enemies and weapons in it.
0

User is offline   Lazy Dog 

#6

I always wanted something like Doom 2 but for Duke 3d, what i mean is, keep all the original content (including atomic edition) and just add more, a couple more weapons, more enemies and a new campain of at least 30 levels (and i mean good levels, i was never particularly fond of Doom 2 level design :D, it beggins okay but halfway through...).

This post has been edited by Lazy Dog: 11 May 2019 - 04:33 PM

0

User is online   Radar 

  • Banned on TheGearPage

#7

I don't want anything new done to Duke. Even if it was "done right". It's a classic and historical game and should just be left alone.

This post has been edited by Radar: 11 May 2019 - 06:55 PM

1

User is online   Trooper Dan 

  • Duke Plus Developer

#8

We have stuff like this which seems good and proper:

https://www.moddb.co...e-nukem-forever

https://www.moddb.co...-showdown-redux

https://www.moddb.co...lien-armageddon


But then again I'm not sure because maybe "proper" means perfect or maybe it means official or it has some other meaning.
5

User is offline   Solais 

#9

As far as I'm concerned, Alien Armageddon is a most proper expansion.
4

User is offline   Lazy Dog 

#10

View PostTrooper Dan, on 12 May 2019 - 01:13 AM, said:

We have stuff like this which seems good and proper:

https://www.moddb.co...e-nukem-forever

https://www.moddb.co...-showdown-redux

https://www.moddb.co...lien-armageddon


But then again I'm not sure because maybe "proper" means perfect or maybe it means official or it has some other meaning.


yeah, those area all great mods, but what i meant was, something made by 3d Realms back in the 97 or 98. i know, it's just a dream, but a man can dream can't he? ;)

This post has been edited by Lazy Dog: 12 May 2019 - 08:42 AM

0

User is offline   NightFright 

  • The Truth is in here

#11

Metropolitan Mayhem already went pretty much in the right direction.
2

User is offline   MrFlibble 

#12

View PostLazy Dog, on 11 May 2019 - 03:03 PM, said:

I always wanted something like Doom 2 but for Duke 3d, what i mean is, keep all the original content (including atomic edition) and just add more, a couple more weapons, more enemies and a new campain of at least 30 levels (and i mean good levels, i was never particularly fond of Doom 2 level design :D, it beggins okay but halfway through...).

Some time ago I, too, wondered why the development of Duke3D seemingly did not follow a similar pattern to Doom. But there are two points here:

A) Doom II belongs to a slightly different era of game development where creating new levels was a bit less complex. Also Doom II was the "commercial" counterpart to Doom (i.e. sold in stores as opposed to mail order as with the shareware version), very similar to what Spear of Destiny was Wolfenstein 3-D. By the time of Duke3D, the difference between shareware and commercial games became less prominent. Boxed store copies of Duke3D sold from the start. And level design/creation became even more complex compared to Doom.

B) Doom II brought the much-anticipated expansion of the enemy roster with more variety of monsters and behaviours, which The Ultimate Doom completely lacked. In this respect, Plutonium Pack/Atomic Edition effectively is what Doom II is to Doom because it adds new enemies and weapons.

While 3D Realms did not produce any expansions apart from Atomic Edition on their own, there's a hefty list of authorised third-party expansions for the game (it is my understanding that the stuff Wizard Works published was all authorised, please correct if wrong). It is true that none of them actually expands the monster roster, just makes occasional monster replacements. In this respect it is not given that Duke3D has less "official" expansions than Doom II. While many of the add-on disks were just level collections, Duke It Out in D.C., Caribbean, Nuclear Winter and Duke!ZONE II all contained new episodes (the latter a collection of four fairly decent ones as far as I can tell). UPD: Apparently I was completely oblivious to the existence of Duke - It's Zero Hour which Wikipedia states is a cancelled commercial third-party episode that ended up being freeware much like Twin Dragon for Shadow Warrior.

Considering that at least some of the authorised content actually came from community members, I suppose that Secrets of the Acropolis could be counted along because the same team was later commissioned to make the commercial authorised Shadow Warrior expansion Twin Dragon (which never went commercial though because of the publisher's failure).

Oh, and there's also the console-exclusive Duke3D content, including the Plug'n'Pray episode. I don't remember anything like that made for Doom save for the N64 version. IIRC in most cases the number of levels were cut down and/or modified to optimise for the respective consoles (in most cases, by means of simplified geometries) compared to the PC originals.

Also don't forget that 3D Realms was also busy making Shadow Warrior, which is probably the closest thing to Duke3D save for any official expansion, whereas Doom engine spin-offs were all made by companies other than id Software (Raven Software, Rogue Entertainment, Banjo Software and Digital Cafe). There's no official Doom game that is this close in theme and gameplay elements to Doom as SW is to Duke3D.

That said, I believe that Duke3D and Doom are actually on a pretty fair footing as far as official and authorised content goes.

This post has been edited by MrFlibble: 18 May 2019 - 10:39 AM

3

User is offline   Dan 

#13

View PostMrFlibble, on 18 May 2019 - 10:04 AM, said:

It is true that none of them actually expands the monster roster, just makes occasional monster replacements.

I thought the Duke Xtreme monsters didn't actually replace anything?
0

User is offline   Phredreeke 

#14

I think Duke Xtreme has a CON mod that replaces some monsters in existing maps with the new ones (sorta like Alien Armageddon does)

Don't forget about the inflatable sea monsters or the seagulls in Life's a beach, or Nuclear Winter's elves and snowmen.
1

#15

Three new episodes:

Episode one is by the No Rest for the Living team. They were so fucking talented and managed to capture the Doom atmosphere better than anyone else. I'm pretty sure they would be as solid with Duke as well.

Episode two is by John Romero. I want to be his bitch in well crafted Duke 3D maps.

Episode three is by the god himself, Allen H. Blum III. He is Duke Nukem, he deserves to make the grandest grand finale (before the 30th anniversary episode of course).

One city episode (NRFTL guys), one exotic episode (that is obviously Romero's one), one alien planet, high tech style episode (Blum's masterpiece). But they can swap if they want. New enemies, weapons are optional, only implement it if they are good.

Boy, I would give $500 to that thing.
4

User is offline   axl 

#16

View PostNancsi, on 18 May 2019 - 10:47 PM, said:

Three new episodes:

Episode one is by the No Rest for the Living team. They were so fucking talented and managed to capture the Doom atmosphere better than anyone else. I'm pretty sure they would be as solid with Duke as well.

Episode two is by John Romero. I want to be his bitch in well crafted Duke 3D maps.

Episode three is by the god himself, Allen H. Blum III. He is Duke Nukem, he deserves to make the grandest grand finale (before the 30th anniversary episode of course).

One city episode (NRFTL guys), one exotic episode (that is obviously Romero's one), one alien planet, high tech style episode (Blum's masterpiece). But they can swap if they want. New enemies, weapons are optional, only implement it if they are good.

Boy, I would give $500 to that thing.


I certainly agree with the NRFL episode. Apart from Knee Deep in the Dead, that was probably the best set of levels in the whole classic Doom series. And for John Romero, yes, it would certainly be interesting to see what he could do with the build engine.

But I would also want a Levelord episode. You can't deny he brought us timeless classic levels : the Abyss, Incubator, Bank Roll and especially Flood Zone and Hotel Hell.

This post has been edited by axl: 18 May 2019 - 10:59 PM

3

#17

View PostMrFlibble, on 18 May 2019 - 10:04 AM, said:

Some time ago I, too, wondered why the development of Duke3D seemingly did not follow a similar pattern to Doom. But there are two points here:

A) Doom II belongs to a slightly different era of game development where creating new levels was a bit less complex. Also Doom II was the "commercial" counterpart to Doom (i.e. sold in stores as opposed to mail order as with the shareware version), very similar to what Spear of Destiny was Wolfenstein 3-D. By the time of Duke3D, the difference between shareware and commercial games became less prominent. Boxed store copies of Duke3D sold from the start. And level design/creation became even more complex compared to Doom.

B) Doom II brought the much-anticipated expansion of the enemy roster with more variety of monsters and behaviours, which The Ultimate Doom completely lacked. In this respect, Plutonium Pack/Atomic Edition effectively is what Doom II is to Doom because it adds new enemies and weapons.

While 3D Realms did not produce any expansions apart from Atomic Edition on their own, there's a hefty list of authorised third-party expansions for the game (it is my understanding that the stuff Wizard Works published was all authorised, please correct if wrong). It is true that none of them actually expands the monster roster, just makes occasional monster replacements. In this respect it is not given that Duke3D has less "official" expansions than Doom II. While many of the add-on disks were just level collections, Duke It Out in D.C., Caribbean, Nuclear Winter and Duke!ZONE II all contained new episodes (the latter a collection of four fairly decent ones as far as I can tell). UPD: Apparently I was completely oblivious to the existence of Duke - It's Zero Hour which Wikipedia states is a cancelled commercial third-party episode that ended up being freeware much like Twin Dragon for Shadow Warrior.

Considering that at least some of the authorised content actually came from community members, I suppose that Secrets of the Acropolis could be counted along because the same team was later commissioned to make the commercial authorised Shadow Warrior expansion Twin Dragon (which never went commercial though because of the publisher's failure).

Oh, and there's also the console-exclusive Duke3D content, including the Plug'n'Pray episode. I don't remember anything like that made for Doom save for the N64 version. IIRC in most cases the number of levels were cut down and/or modified to optimise for the respective consoles (in most cases, by means of simplified geometries) compared to the PC originals.

Also don't forget that 3D Realms was also busy making Shadow Warrior, which is probably the closest thing to Duke3D save for any official expansion, whereas Doom engine spin-offs were all made by companies other than id Software (Raven Software, Rogue Entertainment, Banjo Software and Digital Cafe). There's no official Doom game that is this close in theme and gameplay elements to Doom as SW is to Duke3D.

That said, I believe that Duke3D and Doom are actually on a pretty fair footing as far as official and authorised content goes.


Well, in past when i was much more inexperienced than i am now, i had too much enthusiasm, while i was makig my mod Duke Nukem IV. In that time, when i was still making this mod, i was really going for "Doom II kind of sequel for Duke" that removes episode selection and adds enemies and weapons with combining everything with new storyline. (just like Doom II does compared to Doom 1, well sort of) But again i was very inexperienced at that time, and i am still inexperienced, so i put too much hope as i thought i was making something good. But as time passed and when i already released Duke nukem IV, thanks to other people's criticism, i understood i went to high on my mod, and it resutled into piece of worthless garbage, with heavily undetailed levels, oversized new enemies, new sounds and music of terible quality, just because i was going to make DUke Nukem IV, A Doom 2 like sequel to Duke Nukem 3D. But Speaking of Atomic Edition, i would rather compare it to Ultimate Doom 4th Episode, than to Doom II, despite of adding new content, which is Doom II's method, not ultimate Doom's which jsut adds new episode. If someone make good thing called "Duke Nukem 3D II" based on same method as "Doom2 was to Doom1" manner, i would really consider it true Duke nukem 3D sequel and one of best games ever, which i would prefer on instead of DNF or World Tour. This is my opinion though.
1

User is offline   MrFlibble 

#18

View PostGingis Khan, on 19 May 2019 - 02:02 PM, said:

But Speaking of Atomic Edition, i would rather compare it to Ultimate Doom 4th Episode, than to Doom II, despite of adding new content, which is Doom II's method, not ultimate Doom's which jsut adds new episode.

This is a comparison based on similarity of form, not similarity of essence/function.

Consider the following facts as reasons for my above statement that The Birth is Duke3D's Doom II:

1) Doom II came out when the shareware vs. commercial game dichotomy was still very relevant. In a way, Doom II was essentially a stand-alone product:

Wikipedia said:

Unlike Doom, which was initially only available through shareware and mail order, Doom II was a commercial release sold in stores

For the same reason Doom II was not split into episodes like Doom, because it was not published via the Apogee/Scott Miller shareware model so there was no need for a first, free episode. In this, Doom II followed the footsteps of Wolfenstein 3D and Blake Stone - both games released as shareware, but with commercial follow-ups also not split into episodes.

However, when Duke Nukem 3D came out, the shareware model was still there but the difference between shareware and commercial games was already quite blurred (remember our retail shareware discussion from the other thread?). The original three-episode game was commercially distributed by FormGen, the Atomic Edition by GT Interactive.

2) Doom II was the main focus of id Software's development while the fourth episode of Doom was not, according to John Carmack's interview to Doomworld:
Spoiler

It appears that The Ultimate Doom itself was a result of this blurring of the line between shareware and commercial games, as it was a retail release made roughly two years after the original Doom came out.

Notably, the same happened to Heretic: its commercial, retail store version Shadow of the Serpent Riders, also published by GT Interactive, came out in 1996 and also included new episodes (but otherwise no new content IIRC). It appears that back then, it was thought necessary to differentiate between shareware and retail game content, which initially took rather extreme forms (totally new levels and story in Spear of Destiny, Planet Strike, Doom II and Descent II) but stitching new episodes to the registered shareware game also became acceptable.

It is interesting to note that Raven Software provided the additional episodes as a patch for the registered shareware version of Heretic as a free download so that the registered users could upgrade at no cost. This suggests that the shareware and commercial games were two rather different markets back then still.

Conversely, Plutonium Pack was a paid upgrade for the registered v1.3D owners, with the full Atomic Edition boxed package also available in stores from GT Interactive.

Also let's not forget that with the advent of the Internet, 3D Realms and id Software started selling their games as online downloads too, adding an entirely new distribution method.

3) To sum up: Atomic Edition adds new official content and new levels, just like Doom II. The fact that it remained split into episodes and not woven into a single, 39-level marathon (no pun intended), is probably due to a change of industry attitudes that happened in to 1996 (see the Heretic example and John Carmack's quotes above). Conversely, The Ultimate Doom was a slightly belated transition of the shareware Doom game into the retail arena - something that Duke3D never needed in the first place. Again, John Carmack is rather explicit about TUD being a by-project happening at the time when id Software was busy pushing the limits yet again with the Quake series.

Also let's not forget that Duke3D's levels are generally more complex, and I believe require somewhat more effort to create than Doom's. There's one peculiar thing about the Apogee shareware model that might warrant mention here: this model implies splitting a game into several self-contained chunks of roughly the same size, with subsequent episodes inevitably having a "more of the same" feel to anyone who played the free shareware episode, even with all the registered content in place. It is probably no wonder that the early examples like Wolfenstein 3D spawned a lot of follow-ups with basically more levels and in some cases, art replacements. Both Wolf3D and Blake Stone have six episodes each (that is around 60 levels or more in each case), a 30-something-level retail sequel/prequel, and additionally FormGen published two licensed third-party add-ons for Spear of Destiny, while Apogee had the unauthorised Super Upgrades add-on for Wolf3D.

I think that the relative simplicity of the level structure in these games is what facilitated this amount of official content, but it also made the results rather repetitive. As level design became more complex the pace of creating new official level packs decreased somewhat (I think also because game development accelerated and churning out add-ons for oldies became less and less profitable). At the same time designers took greater efforts to make each level stand out more, give a sense of progression and story, as well as introduce as much diversity as possible. In this respect, it would probably not be much of exaggeration to say that the 11-level episode The Birth is worth as much, if not more, than the entirety of 32-level Doom II.
2

User is offline   gemeaux333 

#19

And what about the new episode under the hence of World Tour (the one including some time travel) they spoke about ?
0

#20

View PostMrFlibble, on 20 May 2019 - 10:49 AM, said:

This is a comparison based on similarity of form, not similarity of essence/function.

Consider the following facts as reasons for my above statement that The Birth is Duke3D's Doom II:

1) Doom II came out when the shareware vs. commercial game dichotomy was still very relevant. In a way, Doom II was essentially a stand-alone product:

For the same reason Doom II was not split into episodes like Doom, because it was not published via the Apogee/Scott Miller shareware model so there was no need for a first, free episode. In this, Doom II followed the footsteps of Wolfenstein 3D and Blake Stone - both games released as shareware, but with commercial follow-ups also not split into episodes.

However, when Duke Nukem 3D came out, the shareware model was still there but the difference between shareware and commercial games was already quite blurred (remember our retail shareware discussion from the other thread?). The original three-episode game was commercially distributed by FormGen, the Atomic Edition by GT Interactive.

2) Doom II was the main focus of id Software's development while the fourth episode of Doom was not, according to John Carmack's interview to Doomworld:
Spoiler

It appears that The Ultimate Doom itself was a result of this blurring of the line between shareware and commercial games, as it was a retail release made roughly two years after the original Doom came out.

Notably, the same happened to Heretic: its commercial, retail store version Shadow of the Serpent Riders, also published by GT Interactive, came out in 1996 and also included new episodes (but otherwise no new content IIRC). It appears that back then, it was thought necessary to differentiate between shareware and retail game content, which initially took rather extreme forms (totally new levels and story in Spear of Destiny, Planet Strike, Doom II and Descent II) but stitching new episodes to the registered shareware game also became acceptable.

It is interesting to note that Raven Software provided the additional episodes as a patch for the registered shareware version of Heretic as a free download so that the registered users could upgrade at no cost. This suggests that the shareware and commercial games were two rather different markets back then still.

Conversely, Plutonium Pack was a paid upgrade for the registered v1.3D owners, with the full Atomic Edition boxed package also available in stores from GT Interactive.

Also let's not forget that with the advent of the Internet, 3D Realms and id Software started selling their games as online downloads too, adding an entirely new distribution method.

3) To sum up: Atomic Edition adds new official content and new levels, just like Doom II. The fact that it remained split into episodes and not woven into a single, 39-level marathon (no pun intended), is probably due to a change of industry attitudes that happened in to 1996 (see the Heretic example and John Carmack's quotes above). Conversely, The Ultimate Doom was a slightly belated transition of the shareware Doom game into the retail arena - something that Duke3D never needed in the first place. Again, John Carmack is rather explicit about TUD being a by-project happening at the time when id Software was busy pushing the limits yet again with the Quake series.

Also let's not forget that Duke3D's levels are generally more complex, and I believe require somewhat more effort to create than Doom's. There's one peculiar thing about the Apogee shareware model that might warrant mention here: this model implies splitting a game into several self-contained chunks of roughly the same size, with subsequent episodes inevitably having a "more of the same" feel to anyone who played the free shareware episode, even with all the registered content in place. It is probably no wonder that the early examples like Wolfenstein 3D spawned a lot of follow-ups with basically more levels and in some cases, art replacements. Both Wolf3D and Blake Stone have six episodes each (that is around 60 levels or more in each case), a 30-something-level retail sequel/prequel, and additionally FormGen published two licensed third-party add-ons for Spear of Destiny, while Apogee had the unauthorised Super Upgrades add-on for Wolf3D.

I think that the relative simplicity of the level structure in these games is what facilitated this amount of official content, but it also made the results rather repetitive. As level design became more complex the pace of creating new official level packs decreased somewhat (I think also because game development accelerated and churning out add-ons for oldies became less and less profitable). At the same time designers took greater efforts to make each level stand out more, give a sense of progression and story, as well as introduce as much diversity as possible. In this respect, it would probably not be much of exaggeration to say that the 11-level episode The Birth is worth as much, if not more, than the entirety of 32-level Doom II.


Well, you are right here. Yes i compared The Birth to Ultimate Doom by strtucture, not by purpose as you explained. When we get to purpose it is indeed Duke's Doom 2. But still, as i said earlier, would be nice to see if someone makes, even unoffical, expansion pack called "Duke Nukem 3D II" which would contain about 20-30 levels with no episdoe selection, with content of both orignal registered version and atromic edition, but also with even ore new custon content. With Map30 being "Icon of Sin" kind but with throwing Duke monsters\aliens. Of course to suit Duke nukem 3D storyline better, it would be interestign to call this final boss "Alien Wall" or something. Well i don'[t have much dieas, but you get what i mean. Duke sequel in real true manner of Doom2, including no episode selection, even more contentm, Icon of Sin-like final boss, would be great in my opinion.

Now, as for shareware distribution and commerical distribution stuff you mentioned, here is some interesting stuff i would like to point out here.

Example: as you said, Ultimate Doom and Shadow of Serpent Riders were FREEWARE patches for registered versions of Doom 1\Heretic. However, in case of Wolf3D, Wolf3D had more choices. Only first (shareware) episode was free, a three episode version was considered "registered" and it had 30 levels (10 per each episode) and it costed 35$ USD at that time. But Noctural Mission (episodes 4 thru 6) costed only 25$, so cheaper than actual registered trilogy. And on end, there was a way to order both trilogies, with 60 levels in total (10 level per episode) which costed around 50$ if i am not mistaken. Now since "both trilogy full version" was like "Ultimate Doom\Serpent Riders" to 3-episode Registered Wolf3D, it still required to be bought, unlike Ultiamte Doom\Serpent riders which were freeware patches of Doom\Heretic. What you think about this method?

Another interestign fact. Hexen originally planed to sequel to Heretic, and that "Doom2-like" sequel to Heretic. If you browse thru Hexen.wad with XWE (Extendable Wad Editor) or Slade Editor you will see soem traces still mentiosn game name as "Heretic II" rather than Hexen. Just like what Doom II adds over Doom 1, Hexen also removed epsidoe selection, using Doom 2 level progression method, it added new enemies and new weapons. But what is most interesting fact is that, Hexen, rather to be Heretic II (and thus Heretic's direct sequel) it went on its own. it got own storyline, and if we don't count Serpent Riders brother plot, and some smilar health and inventory pickups, Heretic and Hexen now have nothing to do with each other, yet they still look so similar. Also on end of Heretic Episode 3, Heresiarch is showed as wathcing Corvus after he defeated D'Sparil. Heresiarch was orignally planed to be final boss of Heretic II\Hexen, but this idea was scraped in favor of Korax. But still Heresiach as a bvoss still appears on end of Hexen's hub 3 and hub 4. Hexen was originally meant to be real Heretic II but for some reason it went to totally different direction, and later Heretic II become totally soemthing else, a Third Person shooter, that have nothing to do with Heretic\Hexen series except of Corvus and mention of DSparil. But in this game, Corvus fights totally new evil force, when he returend to his village, which have nothing to do with Serpent Riders. There is also many beta screenshots of Hexen when it still look liked a bit more "Heretic-ish" (exmaple Menu using Green Heretic font rather than Hexen red font) and other interesting screens now i don't remember well. I think Hexen would have much mroe success if it is actually made to be Heretic II as originally intended.
0

User is offline   MrFlibble 

#21

Gingis Khan, on a side note, please do not quote entire posts in your replies. This is already a lengthy discussion, no need to make it bloated by duplicating entire posts in the quote.

View PostGingis Khan, on 20 May 2019 - 12:55 PM, said:

But still, as i said earlier, would be nice to see if someone makes, even unoffical, expansion pack called "Duke Nukem 3D II" which would contain about 20-30 levels with no episdoe selection, with content of both orignal registered version and atromic edition, but also with even ore new custon content. With Map30 being "Icon of Sin" kind but with throwing Duke monsters\aliens. Of course to suit Duke nukem 3D storyline better, it would be interestign to call this final boss "Alien Wall" or something. Well i don'[t have much dieas, but you get what i mean. Duke sequel in real true manner of Doom2, including no episode selection, even more contentm, Icon of Sin-like final boss, would be great in my opinion.

I'm not sure why you're placing this much emphasis on the purely formal features like a lack of separate episodes or the form that the end boss takes. If you take Shadow Warrior, the registered levels are not split into selectable episodes but in effect the episodes are still there, each ending with a boss and a cinematic. There's just no way to skip straight to the final chunk of the game after the Sumo boss without cheating, and IIRC you don't lose your arsenal after that one boss fight.

Selectable episodes already in 1993-1995 were more of a legacy remaining from an earlier time on the shareware scene when every episode was actually a separate programme/game. It made sense to have the shareware episode skippable (assuming that the user had played it before ordering the full game), but as level progression became more story-driven separate chapters could actually become disruptive for gameplay. Anyway, ROTT already nixed on selectable episodes back in 1994, and so did Descent, to no detriment of the playing experience or the shareware model.

As for the final boss in your proposed mod being a clone of MAP30 from Doom II, that would be terribly unoriginal no matter how you put it.

I believe that if 3D Realms were ever to do a Duke3D sequel in the manner of Doom II or Descent II back in 1997, they'd probably go in a similar direction as Shadow Warrior, with even more detailed and interactive levels, utilising TROR, alternate weapon fire, voxel items etc. Perhaps Duke's arsenal would be revamped similar to the N64 version (or would indeed be directly copied from there). Not sure if they'd be willing to add the same railgun as in SW, or some other weapons. The enemy roster is already pretty balanced in Duke3D, unlike the first Doom game, so no idea what the new monsters would be. Maybe some palswapped Troopers and Pig Cops? Would be neat to see the return of the Enforcer-piloted RPV, or the dark spacesuit trooper enemy shown in some pre-release screenshots.

Concerning the levels I cannot really imagine the direction apart from greater interactivity and driveable vehicle sections. IIRC there were some development leftovers for something in the 3DR archives, no? Anyway, I think Shadow Warrior gives a fairly good idea of what cityscape or industrial themed levels in a hypothetical Duke3D expansion could've been. Not sure if the space theme would be revisited, and to what extent, considering that only one episode in the game takes place on the space station and on the Moon. Maybe there'd be some recycling of unused material from LameDuke and possibly some other leftovers we do not know about yet.

View PostGingis Khan, on 20 May 2019 - 12:55 PM, said:

Example: as you said, Ultimate Doom and Shadow of Serpent Riders were FREEWARE patches for registered versions of Doom 1\Heretic.

No, I did not say that. Only Serpent Riders is a free download for registered users of Heretic.

View PostGingis Khan, on 20 May 2019 - 12:55 PM, said:

However, in case of Wolf3D, Wolf3D had more choices. Only first (shareware) episode was free, a three episode version was considered "registered" and it had 30 levels (10 per each episode) and it costed 35$ USD at that time. But Noctural Mission (episodes 4 thru 6) costed only 25$, so cheaper than actual registered trilogy. And on end, there was a way to order both trilogies, with 60 levels in total (10 level per episode) which costed around 50$ if i am not mistaken. Now since "both trilogy full version" was like "Ultimate Doom\Serpent Riders" to 3-episode Registered Wolf3D, it still required to be bought, unlike Ultiamte Doom\Serpent riders which were freeware patches of Doom\Heretic. What you think about this method?

Both The Ultimate Doom and Shadow of the Serpent Riders were commercial games sold in boxes in retail stores, and published by a retail distributor, GT Interactive. Wolfenstein 3-D was originally a shareware game published by Apogee, and AFAIK the boxed retail version distributed by GT Interactive always contained all six episodes (judging by the box covers).

I think that in the case of Wolf3D and Blake Stone, adding three more extra episodes as an option was just a relatively easy way to generate more profit from the same product. As mentioned above, the levels were rather simple to create, and of course a cheaper three-episode version remained for the customers who didn't want to overpay. After all, one of the main attractions of the shareware scene was that the games were way cheaper than retail titles sold in stores.

The number of episodes etc. doesn't matter, only the distribution method does.

View PostGingis Khan, on 20 May 2019 - 12:55 PM, said:

I think Hexen would have much mroe success if it is actually made to be Heretic II as originally intended.

That's a rather controversial statement, and I don not agree because this would be simply yet another Doom clone whereas Hexen has more personality and unique features.
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#22

@MrFlibble Well i do apologize for quoting entire posts.

As speaking of distribution method, thanks for cleaning confusion for me. Looks like i went too deep into those details considering episode number, shareware model and retail commerical model. I apologize once again.

Also please correct me if i am wrong, but just like Heretic: Shadow of Serpent Riders did for Heretic, haven't Doom 1 also had "freeware upgrade patch to Ultiamte Doom" so those people who already bought registered version could upgrade to Ultimate Doom for free? Note i am very well aware The Ultimate Doom was commerical product, sold in retail, AFAIK there was Doom Registered v1.9 to Ultimate Doom freeware upgrade patch.

Also small off-topic trivia, Ultimate Doom was originally meant to be called Doom: Special Edition.

I agree about Shadow Warrior, it's resources and engine effects if got combiend with Duke one, would make good "Doom 2" of Duke. Speaking of Space themed levels, i don't know wy, but 3D Realms only made only one space themed episdoe, will all others episodes take places on Earth. In my opniion, i would like also to see some kind of semi-official Space-themed epsiode that will eventually start reusing Space Suit glair as orignally intended. That would be consider good expansion in my opinion.

And speaking of copying MAP30 essence, well, thanks for opening my mind. Why i thought of something unoriginal would be good to be used in other game in first place? But on other hand, before Half-Life 2 came, just one year after Half-Life 1, Opposing Force expansion pack came out. Before Half-Life 2, in my point of my view, it was literally Doom 2 of Half-Life. Not only because it addes new enemy types, new weapons, among the old original ones, but also final boss was alot inspired by Doom2's MAP30 Final Boss - Gene Worm. Gene Worm had its gas attacks, but just like Doom2's Final Boss, it also had ability to spawn more Aliens to fight the players, in very same mnner as Icon of SIn. Nother similarty of Icon of Sin is that Gene Worm is constantly traped in his portal\wall and can't move much. Gearbox, who made Opposing Force at that time, also called his "see sound" DSBOSSIT, same filename is used for Doom2's bosss as well, suggesting it was really Doom2 of Half-Life. I don't know how much positive and negative critcism Opposing Force got, but for me it's one of best games ever, if not even better than actual Half-Life.

Now back to topic, World Tour really didn't feel like good sequel to Duke, in my honest opniino of course. Not that only had many flaws, but level design style shall remain classic, without using too much polymer and other graphical enhancements.
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User is offline   MrFlibble 

#23

View PostGingis Khan, on 21 May 2019 - 05:33 AM, said:

Also please correct me if i am wrong, but just like Heretic: Shadow of Serpent Riders did for Heretic, haven't Doom 1 also had "freeware upgrade patch to Ultiamte Doom" so those people who already bought registered version could upgrade to Ultimate Doom for free? Note i am very well aware The Ultimate Doom was commerical product, sold in retail, AFAIK there was Doom Registered v1.9 to Ultimate Doom freeware upgrade patch.

Turns out I was incorrect, there's also the registered Doom to The Ultimate Doom upgrade patch (19_udpat.exe). Sorry for the possible confusion, I wasn't aware of that one (I somehow assumed that releasing the SOTSR patch for the registered users was solely Raven Software's policy).

View PostGingis Khan, on 21 May 2019 - 05:33 AM, said:

Speaking of Space themed levels, i don't know wy, but 3D Realms only made only one space themed episdoe, will all others episodes take places on Earth. In my opniion, i would like also to see some kind of semi-official Space-themed epsiode that will eventually start reusing Space Suit glair as orignally intended. That would be consider good expansion in my opinion.

There is little doubt that space levels were intended to feature more prominently at some point than they do in the final release of Duke3D. I've always had the impression that the shareware version screen that describes the registered game implies that Episode 2 was the Space Station and Episode 3 the Moonbase. There are also more space levels in LameDuke (but then again it also has more episodes as well).

My guess is that the space levels turned out to be less interesting than those based on Earth. After all, the level design philosophy of the big three Build engine games (Duke3D, SW and Blood) is predominantly to create each level with a single theme based on a familiar, easily recognisable location. This is why there are so many public places: cinema theatre, bar, shop, railway station, hotel, airport, apartment block, you name it. I think this tendency both arose from the intention to create a more realistic game world, and reinforced it because it's easier to add detail to the level if it's supposed to represent a familiar location. Conversely, space stations offer way less possibilities in this respect, although of course it doesn't mean that the design of the space levels is bad. But using Earth based locations you get way more variety of the levels, and the result is probably more engaging and appealing to the players.

View PostGingis Khan, on 21 May 2019 - 05:33 AM, said:

Gene Worm had its gas attacks, but just like Doom2's Final Boss, it also had ability to spawn more Aliens to fight the players

So does the Alien Queen from The Birth.

View PostGingis Khan, on 21 May 2019 - 05:33 AM, said:

Gearbox, who made Opposing Force at that time, also called his "see sound" DSBOSSIT, same filename is used for Doom2's bosss as well

It was probably natural to insert a reference to id Software's famous earlier title considering that HL runs on a modified Quake engine. But HL and its expansions are a product of a completely different time when the considerations behind the development of Doom II after Doom were no longer relevant as this phase of industry evolution had been passed by then.

Personally I believe that in the case of both Duke3D and Doom, it is unnecessary to put higher value into "official" content and ignore or undervalue user-created content. The developers of both games actively promoted user creativity, and much facilitated it by providing tools/specs and source code. Also let's not forget all the user-made levels and add-ons that were released commercially with id Software's and 3DR's approval, or were close to being released like that.

The OP here mentioned some "half-assed attempts" at a user-made Duke episode but didn't point any fingers; yet while not all user maps, episodes and TCs are equally good (naturally), there are some very good ones out there. I just found this channel that showcases quite a few TCs.

BTW, I haven't tried Metropolitan Mayhem yet, but watched a couple of videos and I'm not really convinced that they go in the same direction as the 3DR level designers. Anyway, was there ever any project for Duke that would be like Doom the way id Did?
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User is online   Fox 

  • Fraka kaka kaka kaka-kow!

#24

View Postoasiz, on 11 May 2019 - 01:56 PM, said:

B ) A modder team, teams up with gbx to do an expansion for practically free, this will get more exposure but WT already sold miserably so budget is practically nonexistant and likely will still be rejected by the community as it's still seen more as a fanfic than something by the original guys.

World Tour sales were not that bad. However, Megaton Edition sold extremely well for comparison, and Gearbox probably expected as much. Not to mention World Tour had a disproportional backlash.

Final Doom consists of two episodes created by modders. And it's considered a must-have by the Doom community.

This post has been edited by Fox: 21 May 2019 - 07:52 AM

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User is offline   gemeaux333 

#25

And what about the new episode under the hence of World Tour (the one including some time travel) they spoke about ?
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#26

@MrFlibble Well i rather reccommend Fernando Marquez episodes to be some kind of "Duke the way 3DR did" I agree here, Metropolitan Mayhem aren't bringing 3D Realms classic fee. Speaking of Doom The Way ID Did and Doom2 The Way ID Did, In my hoenst opniion, they didn't served the purpose as i expected, on another hand Doom The Way ID Did : Lost Episodes i found more suiting to emulate classic ID Software experience than DTWID and D2TWID, in my opinion of course. But if "Duke The Way 3DR Did" ever happens, i would consider it semi-offical expansion. Or Duke Nukem 3D II or any other similar stuff i mention. With modern capacities of modern tools like EDuke32, there is almost unlimited possibilites to do. Note i don't say Metropolitan Mayhem is bad episode, it's almsot perfect one, but it doesn't suit 3D Realms classical style like Fernando Marquez did, esspeically this episode 2, space levels were alot inspired by pre-release screenshots of Duke Nukem 3D.
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User is offline   Avoozl 

#27

I seem to remember reading something which said that there was a canceled DN3D expansion called Duke's Safari but every time I look it up on google I can't find anything about it anymore.
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#28

View PostAvoozl, on 22 May 2019 - 06:18 AM, said:

I seem to remember reading something which said that there was a canceled DN3D expansion called Duke's Safari but every time I look it up on google I can't find anything about it anymore.


Duek Safari? Never heard of this one. But i did heard of Duke Zero Hour, a expansion pack that have nothing to do with actual Duke Nukem : Zero Hour N64 game. This expansion pack was later released as free, it was unfinished but then polished a bit i think. I don't remember any other stuff right now. But i higly reccommend FM3X, a Fernando Marquez episodes which getting 3D Realms Classic feel so quick and easy!
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User is offline   Phredreeke 

#29

Could there be a mix up in that Sunstorm (developer of Duke it out in DC and Life's a Beach) went on to make hunting sims?
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User is online   Radar 

  • Banned on TheGearPage

#30

He might be talking about the 'Endangered Species' game that was canceled. That game had some sick models based on DN3D weapons too. It was not an expansion.
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