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What was LameDuke going to be about?

#1

So I have just found out about LameDuke and I am fascinated by just how different it was compared to the Duke Nukem 3D we ended up getting.

What caught my attention the most, though, is that it was going to be a direct continuation of Duke Nukem II and the enemies were not going to be the Cycloids but robots, apparently, which makes me think of the Doctor Who Cloned Me DLC, with Doctor Proton returning to antagonise Duke Nukem.

Has 3D Realms ever revealed what their original plans were in terms of story and why they decided to scrap it in favour of aliens coming for Earth's women plot?
0

User is offline   oasiz 

  • Dr. Effector

#2

Duke3D is a product of a ton of trial & error iteration.
Lameduke was a snapsopt of Duke3D dev from a time where they literally tried to make a "Duke Nukem in 3D" but already started adding more things to it.
You'd be surprised how little of a plan the game ever had, they just added/removed/changed things as they went on.

Story-wise it's at most a collection of various concepts and set pieces rather than a fully thought out piece.

They initially set off to make L.A. based levels, which ended up as it's own "campaign" where you start off in the L.A. river and fight a helicopter on top of the U.S. bank tower by the end. In the middle you blow up a nuclear reactor and such.
Various city concepts got re-purposed almost as-is to the final game (whole street sections)

Later on they expanded things to space and one chapter puts you in an underwater base.

Underwater base stuff was kind of spun off/merged to space stuff down the line.. Conceptually more interesting and didn't really require many changes (space suit is not really that much different than swimming).

Alien stuff just kind of took over slowly through enemy editing iterations and I think that the pigcop was one of the first obvious non-robot/human things.
You can even find some alien stuff in the underwater maps, kinda hinting that these were done around the time of LD snapshot.

Explore enough and you will find that almost every concept in LD kind of got improved or changed and ended up in the final
11

User is offline   Perro Seco 

#3

I posted this pic in the topic about miscellaneous knowledge sometime ago:

http://i66.tinypic.com/i1kvmd.jpg
The magazine says something about a giant bomb and a dome in which Duke has to infiltrate. Here's the video from where it's from, but it's hard to read the rest.

Must have been written when LameDuke was looking like this:



This post has been edited by Perro Seco: 10 March 2019 - 11:38 AM

4

User is offline   Lazy Dog 

#4

View Postoasiz, on 10 March 2019 - 11:11 AM, said:

Duke3D is a product of a ton of trial & error iteration.


During development games change pretty radically, just check out games will a lot of beta/ pre-released content, like hl2.
0

#5

I would be curious to know what made them go from a mostly robotic bestiary to a mostly alien/mutant one. That is a quite a drastic change!
0

User is offline   Ninety-Six 

#6

View Postjohnnythewolf, on 10 March 2019 - 02:31 PM, said:

I would be curious to know what made them go from a mostly robotic bestiary to a mostly alien/mutant one. That is a quite a drastic change!


I have wondered this myself. While its development may not have been all that unique, I've seen a lot of alphas and betas of games from all over gaming's history, and very few had such a drastic shift in direction. I have no complaints over the final result of course; but it has always fascinated me how they seemed to go from robots, mutants, and a tone more in-line with Dukes 1 and 2, to a pop-culture smorgasbord with references to action movies, one-liners, and somewhat more sexualized content.


While iteration is always a part of it, with such a massive gap between the two snapshots, I've always felt that at some point, at least one or two major decisions were made that really shaped the direction of the game.
0

User is offline   oasiz 

  • Dr. Effector

#7

Judging based on what the guys have dug up from the game, I wouldn't be surprised if most key things are just them accidentally trying something and thought it was cool and then implemented a bunch of stuff around it.
Duke3D is really a kitchensink of ideas and concepts where for the first two years they had no idea what they were doing.
There is really no "ok, let's go with all aliens" and everything from there was alien only.. If you look at liztroop's evolution, the amount of stages put even Pokemon to shame.

Duke3D honestly just went with "what was cool" and that's why a lot of concepts are still intact as-is and a lot got changed. Hell, even the whole idea of oneliners and duketalk we're added at last minute.

Compare "lamerduke" and you clearly have a snapshot of the initial style before it started evolving more. 1995 video shown already has a hybrid snapshot of between LD and retail stages again.
There were really no generations, it's just a collection of different things they had going on at the time. It's a product of constant incremental iteration
5

User is online   def13391 

#8

I think i'm gonna make my own version of Lameduke's backstory.

The year is 1998.

While Duke Nukem was fighting the rigelatins, Dr. Joseph Blunderwitz (Dr. Proton's older brother) attacked L.A. And several space stations with his army of killer robots (with the help of an alien race known as the protozoids)

After a brutal fight with a rigelatin commander, Duke set the Self-Destruct sequence on the Symmetro-Cruiser Mark IV and escaped using a stolen spaceship.

Duke:Ugh, i'm getting tired of these goddamn aliens!

SUDDENLY, A tractor beam appeared.

Duke:What the hell?!?!
Joseph (talking to duke through a speaker inside of the ship):HAHA! I HAVE YOU NOW, NUKEM!
Duke:Who's there?!
Joseph:I am Joseph Blunderwitz, I am Dr. Proton's older brother!
Duke:What do you want?
Joseph:WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK I WANT YOU PRIMITIVE SCHMOE! I WANT TO AVENGE MY BROTHER!!!
Duke:Oh, shut up! *Duke deactivates speaker*
Joseph:TURNING OFF THAT SPEAKER WON'T SHUT ME UP, YOU PRIMITIVE SCHMOE!!!
Duke:STOP CALLING ME THAT! *Duke shoots speaker*

*Ship enters airlock, This is where L1 begins.*

Duke exits the ship and opens a door ahead of him.

Robot Captain:SQUAD! NUKEM HAS ARRIVED!
Duke:Oh boy, this is gonna suck!

I can't be bothered to write anything else here.
my version of the story's kinda shit to be honest.

if you think the story's good (or bad) well, that's just your opinion and i'll let you have that opinion.
i don't even know why i even made this.
0

User is offline   MrFlibble 

#9

View Postjohnnythewolf, on 10 March 2019 - 02:31 PM, said:

I would be curious to know what made them go from a mostly robotic bestiary to a mostly alien/mutant one. That is a quite a drastic change!

It appears that the initial enemy designs were more or less based off the previous concepts in Duke Nukem II, but apparently the direction changed as new monsters were added. Enforcers and Pig Cops already appear in screenshots from mid-1995, e.g. in the preview pack that came with Terminal Velocity shareware (dated 1 June 1995). They are later shown to exist along a refined version of the spacesuit trooper similar to the LameDuke one, but with armour design more closely aligned in colours to the Enforcer (who then had this red trim on black armour):
https://www.mobygames.com/images/promo/original/1473097004-3173438035.png https://www.mobygames.com/images/promo/original/1473097003-2879835078.png https://www.mobygames.com/images/promo/original/1473097003-2898926697.png

By November 1995, the Trooper design was changed to the Predator/Lizard Trooper one, possibly to increase resemblance to the Enforcer even further. Or maybe, the designers simply felt the new design was cool. I believe it is also possible that the Lizard Trooper mayb have been at first designed for another monster, then changed to the basic enemy, phasing out the spacesuit guy.
5

#10

View PostMrFlibble, on 12 March 2019 - 04:34 AM, said:

It appears that the initial enemy designs were more or less based off the previous concepts in Duke Nukem II, but apparently the direction changed as new monsters were added. Enforcers and Pig Cops already appear in screenshots from mid-1995, e.g. in the preview pack that came with Terminal Velocity shareware (dated 1 June 1995). They are later shown to exist along a refined version of the spacesuit trooper similar to the LameDuke one, but with armour design more closely aligned in colours to the Enforcer (who then had this red trim on black armour):
https://www.mobygames.com/images/promo/original/1473097004-3173438035.png https://www.mobygames.com/images/promo/original/1473097003-2879835078.png https://www.mobygames.com/images/promo/original/1473097003-2898926697.png

By November 1995, the Trooper design was changed to the Predator/Lizard Trooper one, possibly to increase resemblance to the Enforcer even further. Or maybe, the designers simply felt the new design was cool. I believe it is also possible that the Lizard Trooper mayb have been at first designed for another monster, then changed to the basic enemy, phasing out the spacesuit guy.


Don't forget that in-between the spacesuit and retail, there was also the Firefly version of the Trooper.
I actually wonder if we've seen all iterations of the enemies (either through small bits TerminX posted or press-release shots) or if there's any that haven't seen the light of day at all yet.

This post has been edited by Doom64hunter: 12 March 2019 - 10:12 AM

1

User is offline   Lazy Dog 

#11

View PostDoom64hunter, on 12 March 2019 - 10:11 AM, said:

Don't forget that in-between the spacesuit and retail, there was also the Firefly version of the Trooper.
I actually wonder if we've seen all iterations of the enemies (either through small bits TerminX posted or press-release shots) or if there's any that haven't seen the light of day at all yet.


common Gearbox, we need them betas!
0

User is offline   Perro Seco 

#12

View PostPerro Seco, on 10 March 2019 - 11:37 AM, said:

Here's the video from where it's from, but it's hard to read the rest.
Thanks to Big Box Retro Collector, the uploader, we can see now what LameDuke was going to be about:

Spoiler

Interesting plot. There's no mention to aliens yet, even though they were already present in game, along with pigcops. It would have been cool to see how the final game would look if it had followed this theme. I think it could have been a success despite being different from the final Duke 3D, mainly because all the innovations the Build Engine was offering at the time and also because levels/enemies/weapons were already pretty well designed. Or at least in my opinion. :D
2

User is offline   Ninety-Six 

#13

That sounds like a neat idea for a mod to follow that original plot. Accuracy to 1996 standards is optional but maybe it would be better to be expanded to a full TC with some of the modern features.
1

User is offline   oasiz 

  • Dr. Effector

#14

Hmm... kind of explains the "mission cockroach" if you need to infiltrate the "dome" through some passage.
Might just be a coincidence.

There are quite many reactors in LD so this text would help to explain.
It's still clear they had only a vague idea even during LD since they had already stopped using the old enemies on some maps completely. Curious to hear if TX or H266 know more..
2

#15

View PostNinety-Six, on 15 March 2019 - 04:05 PM, said:

That sounds like a neat idea for a mod to follow that original plot. Accuracy to 1996 standards is optional but maybe it would be better to be expanded to a full TC with some of the modern features.


I would love that very much! It would be a nice change from fighting the usual Cycloids.
0

User is offline   3D Master 

#16

 johnnythewolf, on 10 March 2019 - 10:24 AM, said:

So I have just found out about LameDuke and I am fascinated by just how different it was compared to the Duke Nukem 3D we ended up getting.

What caught my attention the most, though, is that it was going to be a direct continuation of Duke Nukem II


Duke Nukem 3D IS a direct continuation of Duke Nukem II. The last thing you do in DN2 is blow up the Rigelatons mothership and escape it in a an escape pod.

That escape pod is the ride the aliens in Duke3D shoot down at the very beginning of the game.
0

#17

 3D Master, on 09 July 2019 - 02:03 PM, said:

Duke Nukem 3D IS a direct continuation of Duke Nukem II. The last thing you do in DN2 is blow up the Rigelatons mothership and escape it in a an escape pod.

That escape pod is the ride the aliens in Duke3D shoot down at the very beginning of the game.


I'm not entirely sure, but I think he's referring to the thematical difference. Lameduke was more in line with DN2's style.
0

#18

From the DOS help screen you obtain "Duke return from a space travel and Earth got attacked in the meantime" than anything else, with a real short mention of Rigelatins. Perhaps they weren't entirely sure of making it a direct sequel after setting aside the Lameduke project, but then they decided to point out the link more explicitly in the N64 version intro.

This post has been edited by Fantinaikos: 09 July 2019 - 06:02 PM

0

User is offline   Radar 

  • Zionist Shill

#19

LameDuke was clearly going to be a cyberpunk Blade Runner inspired game. The final game still ended up being that, but less gritty.

This post has been edited by Gaydar: 09 July 2019 - 06:40 PM

1

User is offline   jet_nick 

#20

View PostPerro Seco, on 15 March 2019 - 03:33 PM, said:

Thanks to Big Box Retro Collector, the uploader, we can see now what LameDuke was going to be about:

Spoiler

Interesting plot. There's no mention to aliens yet, even though they were already present in game, along with pigcops. It would have been cool to see how the final game would look if it had followed this theme. I think it could have been a success despite being different from the final Duke 3D, mainly because all the innovations the Build Engine was offering at the time and also because levels/enemies/weapons were already pretty well designed. Or at least in my opinion. :D


there is a picture to read complete shadow warrior beta plot?
0

#21

There are many great concepts that were scrapped in the end, like the underwater base (such level between Derelict and Queen would make sense), or the helicopter fight at the top of a skyscraper.

My other dreams are to see the state of episode 3 before it was nerfed (I mean, Bank Roll even have traces to some removed areas, not to mention the bigger versions of Flood Zone, LA Rumble, Rabid Transit and Hotel Hell), Levelord's episode 4 maps before he left them, or Warp Factor wit Allen Blum's concept. Also Allen said in a DNF podcast he built levels after episode 4 with an advanced Build engine, I'm not sure if it's true or are they available.
0

User is offline   oasiz 

  • Dr. Effector

#22

I would argue that a lot of the underwater stuff kind of survived to space maps in spirit and areas like E1L4. Whole water/flooding effect was extremely buggy in LD and I don't think they ever got it working any better. Still a pretty nice chapter.
The way the helicopter was coded was a mess, I think it would have needed quite a bit of work to avoid things like crossing sectors and such.
It was cool on paper but not really build-friendly, sadly.

Also there is no advanced build engine, that's a misunderstanding. At most they probably had Tile#0 test maps with some limited ROR as that was already coded for 1.5.
Many think that there was a "Build engine DNF" but this isn't true. The archives had nothing on this.
0

#23

View PostThe Watchtower, on 22 July 2019 - 02:32 AM, said:

Also Allen said in a DNF podcast he built levels after episode 4 with an advanced Build engine, I'm not sure if it's true or are they available.


That is probably related to Dirk A. Jones's 1996 voxel concept art: https://duke4ever.al...eptart1996.html
1

User is offline   Jim Rockford 

  • Banned on Rigel

#24

There was allegedly supposed to be a Duke Nukem 3D 1.7 patch that would add at least voxels and ROR to make D3D more comparable to Shadow Warrior but that never materialized.
0

User is offline   oasiz 

  • Dr. Effector

#25

At least the partially working ROR in 1.5 is evidence that they at least planned to include ROR, considering most of the code was done after 1.4.
1

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