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Duke Builder Unfinished Build

User is online   Maisth 

  • 203

#1

Not sure a lot people know this but a guy named MXD was working on a level editor for Duke3D called Duke Builder, unfortunately the project was discontinued for some reason, until another guy on the ZDoom Discord posted an unfinished version of the Build, here's a video showing the Build in action.



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Jesus said "I am the light of the world" John 8:12
10

User is offline   Perro Seco 

  • 221

#2

Unfinished? Damn, it would have been really cool to have a level editor for Duke 3D like Doom Builder. I know almost everything about Mapster32, but I'm sure that having a more intuitive editor like that would have been attracted the atention of more mappers.

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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

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#3

That's pretty slick. Song is catchy too.

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0

User is offline   Trooper Dan 

  • Duke Plus Developer
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#4

View PostMaisth, on 29 June 2018 - 02:58 PM, said:

until another guy on the ZDoom Discord posted an unfinished version of the Build, here's a video showing the Build in


So is it actually being developed, or is it where MXD had left it?
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User is offline   Paul B 

  • 473

#5

Not sure if i'm just getting old, but I would still prefer the Mapster editor. Personally, I find Mapster to be more efficient at tiling walls, aligning textures, and positioning sprites than using what was demonstrated. Another reason why I never took to the Hammer Editor. Also, wasn't a fan of seeing the focused wall illuminate when the cursor was on it, I found it to be very distracting possibly leading to a lot of eye strain. But then again I'm probably just old. =P

Nice find though, had no idea people were working on an alternate editor. Really looked like they were striving for a more true 3D look and feel.


This post has been edited by Paul B: 29 June 2018 - 09:19 PM

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User is online   Doom64hunter 

  • 227

#6

Is this the same build that can be found here, or is it something unreleased?

https://github.com/m-x-d/Duke-Builder

Also, some interesting trivia on this editor:
The author, MaxEd, was originally the developer of GZDoombuilder, when one day in early 2017, he got really pissed off at users making suggestions and demands he didn't want to implement.
His final post was this:

Quote

I think I'll better go and make Duke Builder or something. See ya.


And here we are.
1

User is online   Maisth 

  • 203

#7

View PostDoom64hunter, on 30 June 2018 - 12:10 AM, said:

Is this the same build that can be found here, or is it something unreleased?

https://github.com/m-x-d/Duke-Builder

Also, some interesting trivia on this editor:
The author, MaxEd, was originally the developer of GZDoombuilder, when one day in early 2017, he got really pissed off at users making suggestions and demands he didn't want to implement.
His final post was this:



And here we are.


A friend of mine found the Build on the ZDoom discord server, not sure if the link its still there, but i will search it and post it here if i find it.

Edit: so i actually found the build, I'd recommend downloading it before MXD takes it down if it was leaked unintentionally https://app.box.com/...0byosy0z4ds44im

Repent and Follow Jesus!

Jesus said "I am the light of the world" John 8:12

This post has been edited by Maisth: 30 June 2018 - 06:33 AM

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User is offline   Hank 

  • 2,101

#8

View PostMaisth, on 30 June 2018 - 06:28 AM, said:

A friend of mine found the Build on the ZDoom discord server, not sure if the link its still there, but i will search it and post it here if i find it.

Edit: so i actually found the build, I'd recommend downloading it before MXD takes it down if it was leaked unintentionally https://app.box.com/...0byosy0z4ds44im

I gave it a quick spin. Very un-mapster, but it seems to work with EDuke32.exe, and it reads existing maps.

Who knows, what will happen with it. For now, it shows a lot of promises. :)

Ein sarkastischer Deutscher
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User is online   Doom64hunter 

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#9

View PostMaisth, on 30 June 2018 - 06:28 AM, said:

A friend of mine found the Build on the ZDoom discord server, not sure if the link its still there, but i will search it and post it here if i find it.

Edit: so i actually found the build, I'd recommend downloading it before MXD takes it down if it was leaked unintentionally https://app.box.com/...0byosy0z4ds44im


It is the same build as the git repo, and it's licensed under the GPL, so feel free to fork it if someone else wants to continue developing the editor.
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User is offline   Tekedon 

  • 55

#10

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 29 June 2018 - 07:37 PM, said:

That's pretty slick. Song is catchy too.


Song is from Far Cry 5.
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User is online   Player Lin 

  • 251

#11

So this is true...(WARNING: Drama happened inside the thread), MaxED decided to make a Build/Duke editor after ragequit-ed of his GZDoom-Builder works last year...

EDIT: Doom64hunter's post already nailed it.

Well, looks like it's dead too(he now focused on Quake 2 mod now)...I'm not surprise at all...but Duke/Build really needs more editors for sure...but looks like it's still looks just something like "the curse of Duke" too...

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This post has been edited by Player Lin: 01 July 2018 - 12:49 AM

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User is offline   WolfmanFP 

  • 4

#12

Sorry for bumping this thread, I was going to post here in July, but I got carried away. :D

View PostMaisth, on 29 June 2018 - 02:58 PM, said:

until another guy on the ZDoom Discord posted an unfinished version of the Build

That guy was me. I cloned the Duke Builder repository and compiled it with VS2017 around March just to see if it could open maps, and surprisingly it worked. When MaxED and Duke Builder was mentioned on ZDoom Discord, I posted these screenshots and later put the build on Box.com and shared it.

Kizoky (who told Maisth about the editor) and Zero X. Diamond tested the build and found these bugs:

Zero X. Diamond said:

it has no way to select a specific GRP apparently so it just tries to read literally every GRP in the test program's directory, failing miserably on all that aren't the main one and locking up the program

Kizoky said:

You can randomly see black walls if you move into another sector
Other than that it's nice
Too bad it only supports Vanilla Duke3D

Kizoky said:

Don't try to change the player's angle
It says Invalid Angle 2048
so I guess it still checks for default Doom angles
It crashes if you save the map, and try to reload it
RIP map I guess


It also throws an exception for me when I edit Game Configuration (but doesn't crash).

Also, there are a few videos which show additional bugs:


(incorrect sprites at 5:07)



Another suggestion: the editor's DirectX renderer should be replaced with an OpenGL-based one so it could run on Linux under Mono (the renderer was inherited from Doom Builder 2, and this was suggested for GZDoom Builder-Bugfix as well).

MaxED archived the Duke Builder repository which means that he's not working on it anymore. I posted these bugs because I would be happy if someone could take over the project, fix these bugs and finish it up. I understand that Build.exe/Mapster32 is a more accurate editor but it's hard to learn and Duke Builder would be a good fit for newcomers.

That's about it. :D Happy New Year, everyone!

Attached thumbnail(s)

  • Attached Image: dukebuilder.PNG
  • Attached Image: dukebuilder_3dmode.png

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User is offline   Hendricks266 

  • EDuke32 Senior Developer
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  #13

View PostWolfmanFP, on 31 December 2018 - 02:57 AM, said:

I posted these bugs because I would be happy if someone could take over the project, fix these bugs and finish it up. I understand that Build.exe/Mapster32 is a more accurate editor but it's hard to learn and Duke Builder would be a good fit for newcomers.

No, if you want new features or a different editing experience then these should be implemented into Mapster32 instead of reinventing the wheel.

The Build Editor is WYSIWYG because it uses the Build Engine directly and that is its greatest strength. Anything else would be both a step down and an extreme amount of unnecessary work.

Case in point:

View PostWolfmanFP, on 31 December 2018 - 02:57 AM, said:

Another suggestion: the editor's DirectX renderer should be replaced with an OpenGL-based one so it could run on Linux under Mono (the renderer was inherited from Doom Builder 2, and this was suggested for GZDoom Builder-Bugfix as well).

EDIT: Negative Nancsi and co. can downvote me if you want, but I'm not wrong.


This post has been edited by Hendricks266: 02 January 2019 - 08:10 AM

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User is offline   TerminX 

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  #14

With all of the rendering quirks Build has, it would be pretty silly to design an editor around something that renders the maps differently imo.

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User is offline   Jimmy 100MPH 

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#15

Build/Mapster32 is already easy to use. People who can't figure it out blow my mind.

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User is online   Maisth 

  • 203

#16

At this point, yes, learning how to use Mapster32 is a necessity if you want to map for Duke3D or BUILD engine games in general, that being said, if Duke Builder were to get finished and have all the core features the normal BUILD editor has, more people specially from the Doom community would have more than enough reasons to map for Duke3D, the main problem is that many think that Mapster32 is a hard to learn editor, while that's true, its only true for pretty much the first weeks so to speak, I too cannot believe why people don't use the editor because it feels like rocket science or something like that, I mean, sure you are not gonna become a pro in the first time, but people forget this is the same for any editor out there, it takes to time learn how to use it, and it takes much more time to learn how to use it to the max and know its limitations and specially know how to overcome them.

My main guess is that since Doombuilder is an already "easy" to learn editor, people prefer to stick with what they know, that and also because Doom has become more mainstream nowdays. (Not that it wasn't in the past, but thanks to newer Doom games, people usually like to revisit the old ones)

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User is offline   Nancsi 

  • 377

#17

View PostHendricks266, on 01 January 2019 - 04:49 PM, said:

EDIT: Negative Nancsi and co. can downvote me if you want, but I'm not wrong.


Do you know why Doom ran away from Duke in the last 8-10 years in terms of new content and new modding tools?

It has competition. There are various sourceports and building tools with different strengths and different weaknesses. GZDoom is great for new ideas, modding, scripting, whatever. Zandronum is the best for multiplayer, PrBoom is great for vanilla experience and so on. There are also different building tools as well, I'm not familiar with most of them, but there is competion there too.

Duke has like what? EDuke32 as a source and Mapster32 for building, and nothing else. I don't want to flame here, what are the reasons of this, I already told you in PM years ago. Now, we might had a little glimpse of hope to have a new rival building tool (and maybe a different source port after that) with a different approach, that might actually attract a few more to this community (mostly GZDoom players), and you, Negative Hendricks already slays it with the typical argument that yours, and only yours is the true, and everything else should fuck off. Your attitude towards Blood GDX was quite similar.

As a big fan of EDuke32, and the team which worked on it, your arrogance clearly the biggest taint this community has to suffer.

This post has been edited by Nancsi: 05 January 2019 - 05:49 AM

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User is offline   oasiz 

  • 819

#18

Many people forget overlapping sectors, meaning that you lose a lot of the easy/naive sector scribbling that is possible with doom just because of that. The moment lines intsersect, you already know that it will be the same sector and it's just a split on that. You can't just assume that stuff in Build.
Once you understand how sectors work, it's really not that much harder than working with DB, but more time consuming? Yes.
1

User is offline   necroslut 

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#19

View PostNancsi, on 05 January 2019 - 05:41 AM, said:

Do you know why Doom ran away from Duke in the last 8-10 years in terms of new content and new modding tools?

It has competition. There are various sourceports and building tools with different strengths and different weaknesses. GZDoom is great for new ideas, modding, scripting, whatever. Zandronum is the best for multiplayer, PrBoom is great for vanilla experience and so on. There are also different building tools as well, I'm not familiar with most of them, but there is competion there too. [...]

Fragmentation is not a good thing, and it especially wouldn't be a good thing for a small community like Duke's.

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User is offline   Jimmy 100MPH 

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#20

ITT: Fucking retards actually believe that EDuke32 developers run off other people like the mob.

All other Duke ports (of which there are many) have failed over time because they don't offer any benefits over EDuke32. People seem to forget that at one time JFDuke3D was the dominant port, Rancid Meat was a compelling alternative especially for online play, Icculus had neat features.

EDuke32 rose to the top because nobody chose to continue development of alternatives. And almost all the alternatives/branches in the past couple years have been pet projects and upvote grabbers that despite whatever the developer might say were never intended to be finished and you can't convince me otherwise.

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User is offline   Nancsi 

  • 377

#21

View Postnecroslut, on 05 January 2019 - 08:46 AM, said:

Fragmentation is not a good thing, and it especially wouldn't be a good thing for a small community like Duke's.


Fragmentation is not a good thing, but in a healthy community, additional tools and ports don't mean that. In the Doom community, only Sgt. Mark and his questionable attitude led the Brutal Doom fans to depart Doomworld, but that happens once in a blue moon, also BD is like a tasteless variation of Doom, no wonder some people were pissed off. Having more tools for Duke normally wouldn't fragment the community, but maybe expand it with other people who are familiar with Doom Builder.

Technical parts might hinder the project of course, it's a different game with different engine, but why not let them the chance to do something for the sake of us.

Also, the fail or discontinuity of past projects are completely irrelevant. If someone can come up with something else that can work, at least give him a chance.

This post has been edited by Nancsi: 05 January 2019 - 09:29 AM

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User is online   Mark 

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#22

I don't see fragmenting the duke community as all bad. I would love to see a completed/optimized Polymer and a new branch formed for people interested in more of a "next gen" look and/or getting away from space station and alien maps. Thats why my hopes were high for ICD's projects. <_<

I think with a stable and great modern looking renderer it might attract some of the more talented asset creators. A number of times throughout the years Teamonster has mentioned to me about guys he talks with on various high end modelling and graphics sites. Some have mentioned an interest in creating things but they felt Eduke32 and Polymer were not in good enough shape to use their stuff. Too much compromise and tweaking to it's limits. As good as many assets look in HRP and Polymer, those assets look better in other engines and required less tweaking.

This post has been edited by Mark: 05 January 2019 - 11:21 AM

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User is offline   Jimmy 100MPH 

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#23

Which is funny because when I tell TeaMonster this he calls me a Luddite.

Coke costs a lot of money you know. - oasiz
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User is offline   oasiz 

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#24

I don't think anyone is preventing such a "branch" from happening but someone needs to create such a thing first.
Many have started over the years and give up when they realize that it ain't that simple, hell, that's why Ken just ended up making Polymost himself.
You either sacrifice a lot of compatibility and alienate existing users or try to create something that caters for both.
At the point where you do lose proper compatibility, why even use build.

If it was just a matter of refocusing existing efforts towards rendering then we'd be rocking pixel shader 420+ but to be fair, Pogo is really the main guy doing a lot of heavy lifting lately regarding renderer work. Polymer is a dead end currently and polymost even has it's limits. A lot of work simply has to be done to modernize things around and many of those have been implemented over the months already.
I wouldn't expect any proper "in-house" polymer miracles to happen though.
5

User is online   Mark 

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#25

I came to the conclusion Polymer is all it can be long ago. :(

A new branch was heavily discouraged by present devs. I understand their concern because after ICD created his new renderer they very likely would have been stuck with maintaining it and they had neither the time or skills for it. So the wheel turns...

This post has been edited by Mark: 05 January 2019 - 01:16 PM

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User is offline   Trooper Dan 

  • Duke Plus Developer
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#26

View PostMark, on 05 January 2019 - 01:15 PM, said:

A new branch was heavily discouraged by present devs.


Then he came back and promised to do things the right way and was no longer discouraged (at least not publicly). Then he left again.

The atmosphere around here has sometimes been discouraging for new members and alternative projects, that's true. It's been a problem at times. However, the main reason we have a small community with only one active port is that it's for a very old game that is not Doom.
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User is offline   Hendricks266 

  • EDuke32 Senior Developer
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  #27

View PostMark, on 05 January 2019 - 01:15 PM, said:

I understand their concern because after ICD created his new renderer they very likely would have been stuck with maintaining it and they had neither the time or skills for it.

Instead of inventing your own explanations for why we took the positions we did, you should read the words we wrote explaining ourselves.
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User is offline   TerminX 

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  #28

View PostTrooper Dan, on 05 January 2019 - 01:32 PM, said:

Then he came back and promised to do things the right way and was no longer discouraged (at least not publicly). Then he left again.

We don't know why he left again--he had some pretty serious things going on in his life. He was definitely strongly encouraged behind the scenes after expressing a willingness to do things how we wanted them done. The Visual Studio solution and project files he produced for us during that time have been incredibly useful.

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User is offline   Photonic 

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#29

What would Mapster32 need to make it "better"? A gui? I can see some useful ideas, like 3d mode right click pop-up menus for sector tags/effectors.
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User is offline   Hendricks266 

  • EDuke32 Senior Developer
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  #30

Yeah, ice has some serious RL stuff happening and I completely understand him needing to put that first.
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