Why did Duke Nukem 3D get all of the attention?
#1 Posted 15 February 2019 - 09:40 AM
Blood! was mildly popular with a few of my mates, but nothing like as popular as DN3D was. And of course DN3D was ported to various consoles of the day (N64, Playstation, Sega Saturn), but I don't recall hearing, let alone seeing, any console ports of Blood!, Shadow Warrior, or Redneck Rampage. I know that Powerslave/Exhumed was on the Sega Saturn, and Playstation, but apparently the PC version is rather different from the console versions, and if I recall correctly (from a Youtube video comparing the three versions of PS/Exhumed), wasn't the PC version the last to be released, and since it was the only version of the three to be running in the Build engine, then the Build engine game was never ported to anything else?
I don't know anything about the sales figures of the Build games, but I'd not be at all surprised to learn that DN3D massively outsold the other games, even if, of course, you don't count the sales figures of the console versions of DN3D.
So why was DN3D so much more successful than the other Build games? It is my favourite of the Build games, but I can understand anyone who says that Blood! is better. Maybe it's partly because by the time Blood! came out, the PC magazines were all pushing Quake (and they were!), and so maybe lots of gamers thought that Build games' graphics with their 2D pixelated art, were too primitve when compared to Quake's genuine 3D levels and polygon NPCs (even though personally, I prefer the detail and various colours of the build engine, over Quakes brown, brown, and more brown levels and their near total lack of interactive but unimportant objects that could make a Build level seem more immersive. And maybe the Build games other than DN3D didn't get much advertising (it's a sad fact that advertising plays a major part in the success or failure of a game, commercially speaking), but I don't remember DN3D being swamped with magazine/TV advertsm either.
Blood! should definitely have been ported to the consoles of the day, though. And Shadow Warrior 3D would have been great too.
#2 Posted 15 February 2019 - 09:46 AM
#4 Posted 15 February 2019 - 11:09 AM
I don't know why Duke3D^ is more popular. Maybe it was just a culmination of the sum of all its parts in various subtle ways. *shrug*
#5 Posted 15 February 2019 - 11:11 AM
Quote
* "Nick met with people from several console platforms - Atari, Goldstar,
Sony"
* AWD was supposed to receive 70% of console
In case you wonder about Goldstar, they were one of the licensees to manufacture 3DO consoles.
Back to the original topic, as for Duke Nukem 3D getting the attention. Timing. It wasn't the first Build game, but it was far more accessible than Tek War or Witchaven. And the same year, Quake came out. While IMO the big three Build games have more memorable levels, they were overshadowed by the true 3D of Quake.
#6 Posted 15 February 2019 - 11:51 AM
Kerr Avon, on 15 February 2019 - 09:40 AM, said:
I think this is pretty much it, really. Duke managed to nail a huge release just before true polygonal FPS gaming hit. After that, Shadow Warrior and Blood seemed like a step backwards (to outsiders, anyway. I enjoy Quake but personally I'd pick any of the Build trinity over Quake).
#7 Posted 15 February 2019 - 11:54 AM
In many ways Duke3D was a kitchensink of different things that just happened to miraclously work together to provide an experience that is still quite unique in many ways.
Other shooters on Build were maybe technically better executed in some ways but when you have the option of porting a bigger name with bigger audience, why bother?
Ultimately they will be seen as "Duke clones" even if they had completely different codebase (blood).
Plus titties sell.
#9 Posted 15 February 2019 - 01:14 PM
That aside, Duke also had the backing of an already well known shareware publisher, so magazines and such were probably much faster to stuff the shareware on their cover discs or talk about it in general than they were with games like Blood. Shadow Warrior was most likely too late to the party and would have been overshadowed by the Duke hype of the time. Duke also had the console ports to keep it going by then, it surprises me how many people first discovered him on the Nintendo 64 or PlayStation, their release would have kept the talk about Duke ticking over coupled with the promises of DNF being soon to follow.
Might also be worth considering that action movies were still quite big in Duke's time. They were pumping them out one after another whilst re-running older ones on the TV practically every night. Evidently this must have been what people wanted and Duke essentially personified them in video game form.
This post has been edited by High Treason: 15 February 2019 - 01:18 PM
#10 Posted 15 February 2019 - 01:54 PM
Duke3d was released around the same time as the nintento 64, playstation, sega saturn & 32x, VooDoo 1, 3dFx, 133MHz - 166 MHz processors
By the time Blood, Shadow Warrior, and RR hit the market over the following couple of years, the technology in consoles and computer hardware had advanced: Dreamcast, Playstation 2, VooDoo 2, GeForce 256, 366 - 400 MHz pocessors.
The attitude was that Quake was a forward looking advance (regardless of how mundane the game was), and build was a step back.
It was all about being the kid on the block with the newest and shiniest toys.
This post has been edited by Forge: 15 February 2019 - 01:56 PM
#11 Posted 15 February 2019 - 02:14 PM
#12 Posted 15 February 2019 - 02:27 PM
Duke3D - 1996
The following couple of years - 1997-1998
And it changes nothing about how fast technology was advancing with computers, software, game engines, and console games.
Technically I don't think the PS2 was officially released world-wide until 1999, but it was in development for several years and the writing was on the wall.
Implying that I'm trying to be deceptive over something that anybody can easily look up is an interesting hot-take. When you discover what my end-game in this is, and what I plan on gaining, let me know so we're both in on it.
#13 Posted 15 February 2019 - 02:34 PM
#15 Posted 15 February 2019 - 02:46 PM
Forge, I agree that the 2D-ish aspects of the Build games might well have seemed, to the more casual gamers, or to those who judge games primarily on their looks, to show that Build was the past, and true 3D engines were the future. And that was certainly true to a degree. But to me, Quake felt barren, boring and the levels were tedious and tended to look too similar to one another. I've *never* understood why Quake received, and still receives so much attention, adulation, and playing time. To me, Turok: Dinosaur hunter on the N64 was a much better game (albeit that Turok had no multiplayer, and of course didn't support fan-made mods), and Doom 1 and 2 were, again to me, much, much better than Quake.
Aside from Quake's true 3D nature (both the level design, and the polygon instead of sprite NPC design), Quakes ease of modding, and Quake's console command system (just press the "`" key and you have access to games inner workings - genius!), I thought that everything else was a step back from Doom. And even with the 3D polygon NPCs, I prefer the 2D sprites from other games, as they were more detailed and colourful than Quake's enemies. I loved the idea of the new polygon tech., but not Quake's implementation of it.
thricecursed, on 15 February 2019 - 09:46 AM, said:
To be honest, it was lodged into my head that that was how the game was officially named. I've just checked and it isn't, which makes me either stupid or just forgetful (and still stupid ).
#16 Posted 15 February 2019 - 03:01 PM
Phredreeke, on 15 February 2019 - 11:11 AM, said:
I'm a bit surprised that Atari was on the list, surely the Jaguar couldn't have run Blood, at least not without totally butchering it? Though isn't it true that Atari (such as they are now) currently own the copyright to Blood?
What does "AWD was supposed to receive 70% of console" mean, please?
oasiz, on 15 February 2019 - 11:54 AM, said:
I personally agree that DN3D was very innovative, both in what it introduced and how well it used the more traditional first person shooter ideas and systems. But for some reason, DN3D doesn't seem to get many mentions when the history of first person shooters is discussed. Doom, yes. Quake yes. Unreal yes. Goldeneye yes. Half-Life, of course. But not Duke Nukem 3D, and that baffles me.
High Treason might have a point, too. DN3D was based around action films and a lone hero saving the day against alien invasion movie tropes, and it's themes and scenarios might well have been much more attractive to gamers than the horror setting of Blood, or the martial arts (sort of) setting of Shadow Warrior 3D, or the Egyptian/mythological setting of Powerslave/Exhumed.
#17 Posted 15 February 2019 - 03:07 PM
Forge, on 15 February 2019 - 02:27 PM, said:
I don't think Phredreeke was implying anything bad about you, certainly not that you were lying or trying to deliberately misrepresent anything. I think (s)he just meant that you might have been perhaps reading too much into too little a time-frame. And I think the smiley in Phredreeke's post makes it clear that no offence was intended.
#18 Posted 15 February 2019 - 03:07 PM
Kerr Avon, on 15 February 2019 - 02:46 PM, said:
It's not the game, it's the engine & the advance it represented at the time
same with the consoles and hardware - my shotgun blast of a general list may not have been as perfectly accurate as some may have wanted - (giving people something to troubleshoot makes them happy), but like I said, the writing was on the wall - cartridge consoles were on their way out, old video cards and processors were on their way out, older software engines were on their way out, Internet connections were speeding up and becoming more reliable.
Having the latest and greatest was a status symbol for the tech-nerds.
Still is.
#19 Posted 15 February 2019 - 03:18 PM
Forge, on 15 February 2019 - 01:54 PM, said:
TerminX, on 15 February 2019 - 02:34 PM, said:
TerminX, on 15 February 2019 - 02:34 PM, said:
November 27, 1998 in Japan, September 9, 1999 in North America, and October 14, 1999 in Europe.
TerminX, on 15 February 2019 - 02:34 PM, said:
Sony announced the PlayStation 2 (PS2) on March 1, 1999. Reased on March 4, 2000, in Japan; October 26, 2000, in North America; November 24, 2000, in Europe; and November 17, 2000
TerminX, on 15 February 2019 - 02:34 PM, said:
Announced on August 31, 1999 and released on October 11, 1999
Redneck Rampage: April 30, 1997
Blood: May 31, 1997
Shadow Warrior: August 31, 1997
There. Feel better?
I was wrong. Completely inaccurate. Please disregard my previous posts.
This post has been edited by Forge: 15 February 2019 - 03:30 PM
#20 Posted 15 February 2019 - 03:23 PM
1. Duke Nukem 3D was the first build engine game of the big 4 (or big 3);
2. Blood and Shadow Warrior are more or less copies of Duke Nukem 3D. They followed the exact same formula. One could say Blood and Shadow Warrior are just Duke gone Horror and Duke gone Asian; Whereas Duke Nukem 3D was truely seen as a revolutionary game in the FPS genre: the focus on interactivity, a badass protagonist that would sprout oneliners, the cultural references, ...
3. By the time Blood and Shadow Warrior were released, the FPS genre had already evolved towards true 3D with the likes of Quake. Shadow Warrior and Blood were often regarded as "obsolete" from a technical point of view. They didn't bring anything extra to the FPS genre.
4. Duke Nukem 3D has a more "mainstream" approach than the 2 others. Level variety is much more diverse. One would visit cities, restaurants, flooded cities, space stations, canyons, prisons, rocket facilities, theme parks, ... Even nowadays it's hard to find a FPS game that has more variety in its levels than Duke Nukem 3D. Blood and Shadow Warrior on the other hand, are, given their theme, much more limited in that regard.
5. As a whole, Duke Nukem 3D is a more refined game than the other build engine games. Blood was at its release state (version 1.0) filled with bugs. Both Blood and Shadow Warrior are also a lot harder and therefore less accessible towards (new) gamers. And finally weapon balance was better in Duke 3D : every weapon has its use whereas in Blood the Life Leech or voodoo doll are rather useless.
But, don't get me wrong, I love Blood (shadow warrior is easily the least of the trio) to the death and I would place it in my top 5 games of all time. But it just isn't as good as Duke Nukem 3D. Duke Nukem 3D is the only game that I would acknowledge as a true Doom competitor.
#21 Posted 15 February 2019 - 03:34 PM
- Unlike Doom which used abstract settings, Duke 3D had realistic levels. This includes real-life landmarks and pop-culture references.
- The main character had personality, and the game used a lot of humor.
- Evolving scenarios and interactive objects.
- Erotic elements.
- The 3 episodes play very smoothly, something that's very underestimated. This is also the case for Doom shareware episode, but definitely not the case for the rest of the game, or for the other Build titles. For example, Shadow Warrior progression can be very obtuse at times.
This post has been edited by Fox: 15 February 2019 - 03:35 PM
#22 Posted 15 February 2019 - 03:40 PM
Forge, on 15 February 2019 - 03:18 PM, said:
I was wrong. Completely inaccurate. Please disregard my previous posts.
Calm down buddy. Your overall point isn't wrong, just the dates of the things you gave as examples. Jeez.
#23 Posted 15 February 2019 - 03:44 PM
Kerr Avon, on 15 February 2019 - 03:01 PM, said:
I suppose they could have planned a separate console game like Lobotomy did with Powerslave.
Atari as it exists now is really a French company previously known as Infogrames.
#24 Posted 15 February 2019 - 03:53 PM
Kerr Avon, on 15 February 2019 - 03:01 PM, said:
This has annoyed me to no end, honestly. To make it worse, Half-Life is often credited for being the first to do some things that Duke 3D, in fact, did first. HL did a lot of things first, but people give it more credit than it's due. And I'm saying this as someone who likes HL1 more than 2 and counts it among my favorite games of all time.
Honestly I think culturally people look at the game's extreme attitude and erotic elements and assume without actually looking deeper that it was just a superficial doom clone with attitude and not as the landmark title in the evolution of the genre that it is.
#25 Posted 15 February 2019 - 03:59 PM
TerminX, on 15 February 2019 - 03:40 PM, said:
That's not it.
I don't mind being wrong, and being corrected.
I don't like that it was taken as being intentionally deceptive.
I'd rather be dumb, than a liar.
#26 Posted 15 February 2019 - 04:28 PM
Fox, on 15 February 2019 - 03:34 PM, said:
Amplifying on that point, in my opinion the level design in Duke 3D is overall better than in any other shooter in its era.
#27 Posted 15 February 2019 - 04:42 PM
Radar, on 15 February 2019 - 10:12 AM, said:
Attached File(s)
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CuatemocBlood.mp3 (21.94K)
Number of downloads: 4
#28 Posted 15 February 2019 - 04:51 PM
#29 Posted 15 February 2019 - 04:55 PM
Maisth, on 15 February 2019 - 04:51 PM, said:
I'm not as sure about that. Duke's character in 3D was pretty signifcantly different from his first two installments. Plus Duke 3D put him on the map for a lot of people, who probably didn't even know the previous two games existed.
#30 Posted 15 February 2019 - 05:03 PM
Forge, on 15 February 2019 - 03:59 PM, said:
I don't mind being wrong, and being corrected.
I don't like that it was taken as being intentionally deceptive.
I'd rather be dumb, than a liar.
Oh. That's not what I got out of it, but the posts you're referring to weren't written by or addressed to me so I didn't really pay a lot of attention to them. This doesn't really seem like something someone would ever be deceptive about so that's not really an angle I'm seeing. I don't think that was what Phredreeke was saying at all.