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SIGIL  "Split from "John Romero and Adrian Carmack's new FPS""

User is offline   Danukem 

  • Duke Plus Developer

#361

I haven't played this yet, but I just wanted to chime in and say that anyone who complains about difficulty in a game -- at least as it relates to ammo and enemies -- should try playing on a lower difficulty. This seems obvious but for some reason people won't do it. Just because one map pack or mod is beatable by you on difficulty 3 doesn't mean that the current map pack or mod is beatable by you on difficulty 3. I've encountered complaints about difficulty on my own mods from youtubers. And my reaction is, dude, play on an easier difficulty until you learn the gameplay mechanics and maps properly. That's why difficulty levels exist. Now, if it's about platforming and movement (e.g. avoiding crushers) then I have some sympathy because those challenges aren't typically changed by difficulty setting. Also, I think it's legitimate to complain about spikes in difficulty, or if difficulty levels are not implemented properly. But just saying "the monsters are too hard" or "there's not enough ammo" when you could play on an easier setting is bullshit.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#362

View PostReaperAA, on 02 June 2019 - 12:52 PM, said:

But of course I am not saying that Sigil should have been like Valiant or any other modern flashy megawad like Eviternity, BTSX or Ancient Aliens. I should make it clear that I am not complaining that Sigil is not on par with modern doom wads.

Come on man, a lot of the maps from the wads you've mentioned are dogshit compared to Sigil's layouts. I get it, you wanted something more flashy with new assets, new enemies, weapons and whatnot, you didn't get that... but saying that just because Sigil doesn't have that bullshit it's not on par with those is ridiculous. Romero wanted to make an episode 5 for Ultimate Doom that would fit naturally into the existing bunch while it would also offer something new with the existing assets, no more, no less.

As for this:

Quote

I am only saying that Sigil is not the second coming of Jesus that some people (atleast on DW forums) are claiming it to be.

I've yet to see anyone claiming something like that. To me it seems like you're just butthurt because a portion of the Doom community prefers wads that use the original monster set and weapons and there's really no point in that. Both approaches (classic and "modern") can offer cool things, they are just that: two different approaches to Doom modding.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 02 June 2019 - 04:23 PM

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User is online   OpenMaw 

  • Judge Mental

#363

I mean, of course there was going to be a huge amount of hype. It's John Romero. The man literally defined what Doom mapping was. His approach, his conceptualization is what inspired ALL of the classic Doom maps.

However, I do see how some people could be grossly disappointed here. A lack of new assets, even just textures/flats, is a shame. Episode 2 and 3 did offer new t hings to see when compared to Episode 1.

In any case, I think Romero delivered a good, old school, experience with some nice twists WITHOUT having to resort to new programming shenanigans.
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User is offline   Jimmy 

  • Let's go Brandon!

#364

Icarus and GMan are nerds.
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User is online   OpenMaw 

  • Judge Mental

#365

View PostJimmy 100MPH, on 02 June 2019 - 05:14 PM, said:

Icarus and GMan are nerds.


Not you Jimmy. You're a -


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User is offline   Jimmy 

  • Let's go Brandon!

#366

You goddamn better believe it.
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#367

View PostTrooper Dan, on 02 June 2019 - 02:45 PM, said:

I haven't played this yet, but I just wanted to chime in and say that anyone who complains about difficulty in a game -- at least as it relates to ammo and enemies -- should try playing on a lower difficulty. This seems obvious but for some reason people won't do it.
Just because one map pack or mod is beatable by you on difficulty 3 doesn't mean that the current map pack or mod is beatable by you on difficulty 3. I've encountered complaints about difficulty on my own mods from youtubers. And my reaction is, dude, play on an easier difficulty until you learn the gameplay mechanics and maps properly. That's why difficulty levels exist. Now, if it's about platforming and movement (e.g. avoiding crushers) then I have some sympathy because those challenges aren't typically changed by difficulty setting. Also, I think it's legitimate to complain about spikes in difficulty, or if difficulty levels are not implemented properly. But just saying "the monsters are too hard" or "there's not enough ammo" when you could play on an easier setting is bullshit.


Yup, "seems obvious" and they have 2 options, a lower difficulty or just save the game often and learn the map in real time, they won't do nothing of this BUT, sometime they choose a third option i.e: "we can't beat Doom 2016 on Nightmare difficulty... let's try Ultra Nightmare!" LOL.

Anyway Sigil is also free, then i can't understand what people have to complain about, even if the game would have been almost impossible, no one is forcing them to play.
They should give a taste to games like Battle Toads, that game IS impossible IF you don't know it (internet was not a common thing, so, no solutions out there).
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User is offline   NNC 

#368

View PostZaxx, on 02 June 2019 - 12:07 PM, said:

Overall I can't help but think that the people who like SIGIL are the ones who are kind of bored of the more formulaic Doom megawads and just want something that feels a bit fresh and interesting. On the other hand packs like Doom the Way id Did and No End in Sight won't provide anything new since the goal of them is literally to copy the original maps but they will give you some "deja vu" nostalgia you may be happy to see.


The problem with those releases is they really are just pretending. DTWID documentary even names the author the actual map copies, but FFS they are so far, I never had a deja vu feel, never had a feel of whoah, this really nailed the Romero/Petersen style. They more feel like parodies or roguelike random stuff generated by a program. When the real people (like Romero in Sigil or his two previous maps) create new stuff, they come up with really new, no copycats from previous maps. Can you imagine something like E5M6 in a DTWID release? It would look like out of place there. Or E5M7... the way you revisit previous areas when you go forward on that ledge is a very clever idea, you never see such thing in DTWID types of maps.

As for Valiant, I remember the first five levels were the same generic rip and tear stuff. Stage 6 and 7 were very good, but stage 6 was more like a map made for Duke3D (it even used Water World for soundtack), and stage 7 was a memorable gimmick with the Mancubus. After those two, the whole thing became random again and quickly turn out to be another modernish slaughterwad.

This post has been edited by Nancsi: 02 June 2019 - 10:52 PM

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User is offline   NNC 

#369

View PostZaxx, on 02 June 2019 - 03:35 PM, said:

Come on man, a lot of the maps from the wads you've mentioned are dogshit compared to Sigil's layouts. I get it, you wanted something more flashy with new assets, new enemies, weapons and whatnot, you didn't get that... but saying that just because Sigil doesn't have that bullshit it's not on par with those is ridiculous. Romero wanted to make an episode 5 for Ultimate Doom that would fit naturally into the existing bunch while it would also offer something new with the existing assets, no more, no less.

As for this:

I've yet to see anyone claiming something like that. To me it seems like you're just butthurt because a portion of the Doom community prefers wads that use the original monster set and weapons and there's really no point in that. Both approaches (classic and "modern") can offer cool things, they are just that: two different approaches to Doom modding.


And you know what? Sigil is "bad" for some people, but I would bet my house many people will use the shooting eye mechanic (or something similar) in their future releases, despite nobody came up with such a banal little idea in the past 25 years.

This post has been edited by Nancsi: 02 June 2019 - 10:56 PM

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User is offline   MetHy 

#370

So I took the time to play Sigil despite being super busy these days. I've played it twice, 2-3 maps per day.
I don't really have time or care enough to do a full per level review like for Alien World Order but here are some general thoughts:

- cramped design for the most part. It has some pros&cons, the pros being that gameplay ends up being anti-cricle strafing, which goes against everything user-wads do, and which reminds us that circle strafing wasn't really intended in the first place.
The cons: sometimes it gets a little too cramped, 2-5 enemy spawns with player maneuveribility being a couple of steps, or falling down some cramped catwalk or ledge and ending up damaging floor (which more often than not deals 20dmg per hit, which is just insane). Despite liking the gameplay for the most part I would have liked to see more open areas here and there for the sake of diversity. The crampedness gets very repetitive.

I think the crampedness, which is more accentuated than any other Doom map Romero did, might have come from the fact that he worked completely alone on this. What makes me think that is that, on my 2nd playthrough, after getting used to the maps, the crampedness was hardly an issue anymore. When you spend so much time doing stuff completely on your own, it is easy to get used to the environment and lose sense of scale. You start making one cramped room so you align the next one to that scale, and so on.
Either way, whether I'm spot on on my analysis or whether it was intentional, I think it could have been avoided and made better if early on other designers or other people would have been able to give comment on the episode early on and during its making.

- A great point in this EP is the emphasis on the arcade mechanics of Doom. For instance, the gimmicks but also the maps play almost perfectly on pistol start. On my first playthrough I attempted on UV: no saving, restarting the current map over if I died. It worked really well, until I stumbled on the crushers in E5M4, that's when I gave up and started using saves. On my 2nd playthrough I played every map pistol start/no saving though and it worked great. Only 2 issues I found: the start of E5M6 (first third to half) is really tight on ammo, and in E5M5 on pistol start it is impossible to kill the 2 Cyberdemons and get 100% kills. Overall supplies are a little tight but definitely manageable and bring some tactic on how to kill things and supply management. I also very much enjoyed that on pistol start not every map provides every weapon, several maps don't even have the chaigun for instance (and I'm only missing 2-3 secrets in the entire EP). That is 100% classic Doom/Duke/Blood pistol start design.

- The E5M4 crushers felt horrible on my first playthrough, but not so bad on my 2nd. But again, I feel the design was not well thought enough because of the lack of outside opinion.

- I hate E5M5. Fuck this map. I had to restart it 6-7 times, the 2 Cyberdemons, which like I said can't be killed on pistol start, one on each side of an open area you have to go through again and again through the map, coupled with the crampedness and the only places where some movement is allowed being damaging floor, made me lose my mind.

- The secret level was a disappointment. It had nothing special going for it, nothing awe-some, no gimmick, and the only things that differentiate it from the rest seems to be that it's overbright and lack polish. It kind of reminds me of the 2 secret levels in Wanton Destruction which I suspect were chosen as such because they were the least polished, but at least those had interesting gimmicks (driveable boats and the catwalk in trees).

In conclusion I liked the episode a lot overall, there were gameplay design cues which in a way were novel and not seen in user-wads, just like with Alien World Order. But, just like AWO, I feel it could have used direction or at least comments and opinions from someone other than the mapper itself.

I also enjoyed that Doom and not Doom 2 was chosen for this. Back to basics and, for instance in Doom 2, due to Pain Elementals being a thing, the number of Lost Souls was decreased by ten; meanwhile in this EP, just like in the rest of Doom, Lost Souls can be thrown at the player with no restraint.

The biggest disappointment for me was the total lack of new content in the EP except from midi. Apparently the only novelty is the fact that on UV Imps move and shoot a bit faster (something which I wouldn't even have noticed had someone else not pointed it out tbh).
I understand having new enemies can be tough, but they could at the very least made some new textures.
The "end bosses" were such a disappointment considering they were much easier to kill and less of a threat than any other boss in the EP.

This post has been edited by MetHy: 03 June 2019 - 03:39 AM

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User is offline   NNC 

#371

The Cybies in E5M5 can be telefragged.
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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#372

Posted Image
And yeah, apart from the one on the very last map every single cyberdemon can be telefragged in the episode. I've yet to find a super reliable way of doing that on E5M2 though, that one's moving too much. :D
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#373



Taking it slow to avoid the slideshow frame rate drop.....which is nowhere near the biggest problem I face in this thing.
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User is offline   NNC 

#374

View PostZaxx, on 03 June 2019 - 05:39 AM, said:

Posted Image
And yeah, apart from the one on the very last map every single cyberdemon can be telefragged in the episode. I've yet to find a super reliable way of doing that on E5M2 though, that one's moving too much. :D


The one in the secret level? And the one in E5M6?

This post has been edited by Nancsi: 03 June 2019 - 06:35 AM

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User is online   NightFright 

  • The Truth is in here

#375

Doing my third playhtrough now. Knowing all the secrets, monster positions and traps, it's actually a walk in the park. Completely playable. Pretty much goes for any kind of episode or map you are playing more than once.

Side note: MIDI music with a proper soundfont absolutely rocks.
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User is offline   axl 

#376

View PostNightFright, on 03 June 2019 - 07:18 AM, said:

Doing my third playhtrough now. Knowing all the secrets, monster positions and traps, it's actually a walk in the park. Completely playable. Pretty much goes for any kind of episode or map you are playing more than once.


Indeed. My first playthrough was on Hurt Me Plenty. My second one was on Ultra-Violence and found it rather easy. I would say it is definitely easier than the first 2 levels of Thy Flesh Consumed or Plutonia.
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User is offline   ReaperAA 

#377

View PostZaxx, on 02 June 2019 - 03:35 PM, said:

Come on man, a lot of the maps from the wads you've mentioned are dogshit compared to Sigil's layouts.


Have u even played wads like Eviternity or Ancient Aliens? I understand that u don't like them but saying that they are dogshit compared to Sigil is dumb.


View PostZaxx, on 02 June 2019 - 03:35 PM, said:

I get it, you wanted something more flashy with new assets, new enemies, weapons and whatnot, you didn't get that...


Not necessary. I love NRFTL and it doesn't have any new assets in it. I even loved Romero's E1M8b.


View PostZaxx, on 02 June 2019 - 03:35 PM, said:

To me it seems like you're just butthurt because a portion of the Doom community prefers wads that use the original monster set and weapons and there's really no point in that. Both approaches (classic and "modern") can offer cool things, they are just that: two different approaches to Doom modding.


Again, I am not butthurt that Sigil is not like a typical modern megawad. I knew what I was getting into. If I was butthurt, I wouldn't have given it a 7 out of 10 in my review. I am only trying to be fair here. I bet that if the very same mapset was made by some random "XYZ" mapper, it wouldn't have been as well received by most people. That's all I am saying.


View PostNancsi, on 02 June 2019 - 10:50 PM, said:

As for Valiant, I remember the first five levels were the same generic rip and tear stuff. Stage 6 and 7 were very good, but stage 6 was more like a map made for Duke3D (it even used Water World for soundtack), and stage 7 was a memorable gimmick with the Mancubus. After those two, the whole thing became random again and quickly turn out to be another modernish slaughterwad.


Have u thought of playing on a easier difficulty like HNTR or HMP instead of UV?

This post has been edited by ReaperAA: 03 June 2019 - 08:08 AM

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User is offline   MetHy 

#378

View PostNancsi, on 03 June 2019 - 04:27 AM, said:

The Cybies in E5M5 can be telefragged.



Ha damn! Now I remember. I actually did that on my first play and completely forgot about it on my 2nd. I take it back then; but still it can only happen at least half way through the map so it hardly fixes how terrible those 2 particular Cyberdemons are imo.
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#379

View Postaxl, on 03 June 2019 - 07:49 AM, said:

Indeed. My first playthrough was on Hurt Me Plenty. My second one was on Ultra-Violence and found it rather easy. I would say it is definitely easier than the first 2 levels of Thy Flesh Consumed or Plutonia.


Even E5M7?!? :D
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User is offline   Mr. Tibbs 

#380

Posted Image
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User is offline   NNC 

#381

View PostReaperAA, on 03 June 2019 - 08:05 AM, said:

Have u even played wads like Eviternity or Ancient Aliens? I understand that u don't like them but saying that they are dogshit compared to Sigil is dumb.

They are like GMO fruits. Look bigger, flashier, but the taste is bad.

View PostReaperAA, on 03 June 2019 - 08:05 AM, said:

Have u thought of playing on a easier difficulty like HNTR or HMP instead of UV?

Tried, and didn't really enjoy it. But my DN3D fanboy myself still enjoy Valiant more than AA, which bored me to death.

This post has been edited by Nancsi: 03 June 2019 - 10:38 PM

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User is offline   ReaperAA 

#382

View PostNancsi, on 03 June 2019 - 10:37 PM, said:

They are like GMO fruits. Look bigger, flashier, but the taste is bad.


Even Eviternity? I can understand that AA or Valiant is not everyone's cup of tea. But Eviternity is really good with a variety of ideas, asthetics and combat situations. Its also much easier and managable than the other 2. If u are capable of beating Plutonia on UV, then u can beat Eviternity on HMP without any problems.
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User is offline   NNC 

#383

Eviternity doesn't start on my CPU, I watched 2 videos on YT, and it felt like very similar to AA.
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#384



I lost count of how many takes it took to record this......
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User is offline   ReaperAA 

#385

View PostNancsi, on 04 June 2019 - 04:53 AM, said:

Eviternity doesn't start on my CPU, I watched 2 videos on YT, and it felt like very similar to AA.


What version of GZdoom are u using. Eviternity uses Zscript for the weather effects. I think u need GZdoom 3.7.0 and above to run it. OR u can use PrBoom+/ Eternity Engine to run it which simply ignore the weather script.



And I can promise u it is quite different from AA. AA is jam packed with choreographed fights whereas Eviternity gives much more freedom to the player. Eviternity has some exploration based maps too.
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User is offline   NNC 

#386

Well OK, I may try it later.

However, did anyone find the true final boss of Sigil? Baphomet himself after the Cyberdemon in a secret place behind the cages? :D

This post has been edited by Nancsi: 04 June 2019 - 11:41 AM

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User is online   NightFright 

  • The Truth is in here

#387

Well if there is another boss, it's not necessary to kill it to beat the level. I guess that Invulnerability Sphere is Baphomet? Or his imprisoned soul or something?
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User is offline   Zaxx 

  • Banned

#388

View PostNancsi, on 03 June 2019 - 06:34 AM, said:

The one in the secret level? And the one in E5M6?

Forgot about the one on the secret level but I've heard that you can deal with the one in E5M6. Couldn't test it myself yet though.
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User is online   NightFright 

  • The Truth is in here

#389

Mind that if you find all the secrets, you get the chaingun, rocket launcher and BFG (not sure about plasma gun) one level earlier. Romero put a lot of emphasis on exploration and secrets in this episode, and knowing where the good stuff is hidden can make a big difference. This is an insight you don't get from just one playthrough, so at least some of the negative first impressions came a bit too early maybe.
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User is offline   LakiSoft 

#390

I played this little masterpiece by Romero. Good Classic wad, really does 90s style. I even found E5M4 crusher maze a bit funny rather than frustrating. But still wad wasn't anything special as many people on both Doom Forums and Duke Forums were excited when whole thing was still in process. It was just nice classic Romero episode, nothing more. It deserves to be 5th episode patch for Ultimate Doom however, in my opinion some thing could be done better, but it was pretty good overall.

This post has been edited by Gingis Khan: 04 June 2019 - 01:35 PM

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