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SIGIL "Split from "John Romero and Adrian Carmack's new FPS""

johnnythewolf

#331 Posted 01 June 2019 - 03:36 PM

Ammo has not been much of an issue for me, weirdly enough. What I dislike is just how cramped everything seems to be and how easy it is to back into walls or fall into a lava pit while strafing around, which leads to so many cheap deaths that just cause me to abuse the "resurrect" and "noclip" console commands.

This post has been edited by johnnythewolf: 01 June 2019 - 03:36 PM

Malgon

#332 Posted 01 June 2019 - 08:26 PM

Icarus takes a more in-depth look at Sigil on a level by level basis. Plenty of spoilers so watch at your own risk.

NNC

#333 Posted 01 June 2019 - 10:38 PM

Malgon, on 01 June 2019 - 08:26 PM, said:

Icarus takes a more in-depth look at Sigil on a level by level basis. Plenty of spoilers so watch at your own risk.

Another influencer shit. He was moaning about one of the best areas in the game for being bullshit. Really, why people care about these retards? They are just people, like you and me. They were pissing on the release, and others start pissing on it as well. Fuck these influencers, they are the cancer of the XXI-th Century.

johnnythewolf

#334 Posted 02 June 2019 - 02:26 AM

Nancsi, on 01 June 2019 - 10:38 PM, said:

Really, why people care about these retards? They are just people, like you and me.

Huh, did you just call yourself a "retard" there?

-2

Zaxx

Banned

#335 Posted 02 June 2019 - 02:32 AM

Yeah, random idiots on Youtube disliking the wad for whatever reason seems to be a problem. It's like people don't fucking get the deliberate design choices so they start thinking of them as mistakes and as a result their videos come off as bitchy instead of being critical. For GmanLives it was the darkness and the ammo conservation aspect, for this guy it's the lack of the level of manueverability he thinks would be ideal and they do think that those are mistakes.

What they're missing out on is that all of this stuff is deliberate: Romero wants to paint a picture of Hell we've never really seen before so SIGIL is dark, oppressive and claustrophobic. It's a fucked up place like Hell is supposed to be and there's nothing wrong with that since most of it is really just a "trick". You think there is a lack of manueverability? Well guess what, in Doom you can dodge even with the slightest of inputs, for example you only need to just sidestep a bit to dodge a fireball, your hitbox is amazingly small compared to the enemies. You think the game's too dark? Doom is full of sounds that alert you if ther is anything going on around you even if you don't use software mode for the proper lighting. Ammo is a problem? Then you're not finding enough secrets or you're not using what you have in an optimal way.

But nope, the root of the issue they have is never them, it must be Romero! The hubris, man.

Zaxx

Banned

#336 Posted 02 June 2019 - 02:42 AM

Also: what I really don't like is when people say that SIGIL is like Thy Flesh Consumed or harder for whatever reason. Thy Flesh Consumed had a really bad start, it wants to drain you more than anything else on the first two levels and that really messes with the episode's flow since the later maps are much easier. There is really no trick to E4M1 and E4M2, you just have to suffer through them while SIGIL starts out better (the first few maps are fast and easier, you can stock up and prepare for the tougher parts) and even when the shit hits the fan a lot of that is just "puzzles" you have to figure out where there is an optimal way and a lot of unoptimal ones to progress.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 02 June 2019 - 02:43 AM

Aristotle Gumball

banned!

#337 Posted 02 June 2019 - 02:55 AM

Zaxx, on 02 June 2019 - 02:32 AM, said:

It's like people don't fucking get the deliberate design choices so they start thinking of them as mistakes and as a result their videos come off as bitchy instead of being critical.

So because something is deliberate, we can't criticize it? It's not very interesting to make a video and say "well, I understand where he's coming from, but it's just not for me."

Zaxx

Banned

#338 Posted 02 June 2019 - 03:08 AM

Sure, saying that it's not for you may not be as clickbaity or sensationalistic as saying something like "Romero fucked up!!!!" but if the intentions are clear, the design works and it's coherent then that's the most you're supposed to say I think. There are so many way to play Doom and so many ways to build up maps that it's only natural that you won't like some of that but that doesn't mean that those things are bad.

Generally the biggest problem with these Youtube channels is that they often mistake criticism and subjectivity for random opinions coming out of left field. Just because I personally don't like the season of Summer that doesn't mean that Summer sucks.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 02 June 2019 - 03:10 AM

Aristotle Gumball

banned!

#339 Posted 02 June 2019 - 04:22 AM

The most you're supposed to say? According to who? You guys seem angry that people are allowed a voice and are using it. If everyone agrees that something sucks, that shouldn't mean anything to you personally. Enjoy your whatever. Really, anything that other people do on the internet is kind of outside your reality, so I don't get being upset about it.

ReaperAA

#340 Posted 02 June 2019 - 04:52 AM

My review on Sigil:
https://www.doomworl...um/post/1994164

Zaxx

Banned

#341 Posted 02 June 2019 - 05:19 AM

thricecursed, on 02 June 2019 - 04:22 AM, said:

According to who?

According to what instead: basically any kind of professional standard that aims to provide proper critique instead of rambling. The thing is that a proper review is not supposed to say "hey guys, I played it: it sucks!" but instead provide information mixed with personal opinion in order to paint a picture where YOU, the reader / viewer can decide if it's worth your time or not. It's supposed to be less self-centered and more measured basically.

That's why scoring systems, pros and cons summerizations ("let's sum this 5 page long article up in 5 bullet points!") and stuff like the shit GmanLives is doing where he puts his conclusion in the title of the fucking video suck ass too. And sure, it's great that you have a voice and you can use it but guess what: I can do that, any random idiot on the planet can do that too but that doesn't mean that you should listen to all of them.

Anway I'm not angry at these people, I just think that their voices really don't matter because there is a lack of analytical thinking in most of this stuff. If you can't think like that then you will not do good reviews because most of the time you won't have any idea what you're talking about. It's a good thing that Youtube allows a random Australian dude to have his voice heard but it's not good when that same Australian dude's influence becomes so big that his incompetence can scare away people from stuff they'd geniunely enjoy.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 02 June 2019 - 05:24 AM

Aristotle Gumball

banned!

#342 Posted 02 June 2019 - 05:32 AM

Hey, just because you didn't like a review doesn't mean it sucks. It was by design.

Zaxx

Banned

#343 Posted 02 June 2019 - 05:53 AM

Yeah, I'm sure the suckage is intentional from them.

But hey, at least we have Civvie 11, that guy's not a hack.

johnnythewolf

#344 Posted 02 June 2019 - 06:37 AM

Zaxx, on 02 June 2019 - 02:42 AM, said:

Oh, I agree that the difficulty curve is much better than Thy Flesh Consumed. But deliberate or not, the level design still strikes me as more irritating than fun, with the challenge stemming more from not getting accidentally killed by environmental hazards (e.g. inescapable lava pits, health-draining floors, crushers) than fighting enemies.

Again, I am not saying that the maps are bad and that I hate John Romero - I actually like the guy and I wish his post-Quake career had been fruitful. I just find them underwhelming compared to E1M8b and I do not think I will be replaying them anytime soon - although in the spirit of fairness, I do find them more memorable and interesting than E1M4b.

This post has been edited by johnnythewolf: 02 June 2019 - 06:39 AM

NNC

#345 Posted 02 June 2019 - 06:59 AM

Zaxx, on 02 June 2019 - 02:42 AM, said:

Other than what you said, Thy Flesh has abysmal leveldesign beyond the two Romero levels (one of it as you said is an unplayable bitch). Only E4M6 holds a candle to the average Sigil map in my opinion.

NNC

#346 Posted 02 June 2019 - 07:00 AM

ReaperAA, on 02 June 2019 - 04:52 AM, said:

My review on Sigil:
https://www.doomworl...um/post/1994164

Man, you really think map packs like No End in Sight are better than Sigil?

johnnythewolf

#347 Posted 02 June 2019 - 07:41 AM

I quite like E4M9: Fear. It is also a much welcome breather level after the ordeal that is going through E4M1 and E4M2.

This post has been edited by johnnythewolf: 02 June 2019 - 07:44 AM

MajorTom 2417

#348 Posted 02 June 2019 - 07:42 AM

Everyone who said John should patch E5E4....you were absolutely right.

Zaxx

Banned

#349 Posted 02 June 2019 - 07:53 AM

Major Tom, on 02 June 2019 - 07:42 AM, said:

Everyone who said John should patch E5E4....you were absolutely right.

For the love of God there is an invincibility powerup in one of the secret rooms and it's easy to find, you can use it to get through the lava (or the crushers if that's what's giving you more trouble).

NNC

#350 Posted 02 June 2019 - 08:00 AM

Zaxx, on 02 June 2019 - 07:53 AM, said:

I actually think it's better for the lava. It doesn't help that much in the crusher room as the inverse monochrome view doesn't show the clues on the floor where the crushers are.

Zaxx

Banned

#351 Posted 02 June 2019 - 08:06 AM

Good point. I only used it for the lava too so using it for the crushers was just something I came up with as something that could work too... guess not.

johnnythewolf

#352 Posted 02 June 2019 - 08:51 AM

I use the powerup for the crusher maze, but even then, it runs out before I can go through the second part, arguably the most difficult one.

Anyway, I think I know why I have not been struggling with ammo as much as other people in this thread; I use the Smart Scavenger addon, which in my opinion is really a must-have - even if it might not be compatible with other mods. Granted, it does not really make SIGIL that much easier...

This post has been edited by johnnythewolf: 02 June 2019 - 08:57 AM

ReaperAA

#353 Posted 02 June 2019 - 09:40 AM

Nancsi, on 02 June 2019 - 07:00 AM, said:

Man, you really think map packs like No End in Sight are better than Sigil?

Yes. Forgive me for not worshipping Romero.

johnnythewolf

#354 Posted 02 June 2019 - 09:54 AM

No End in Sight is a tricky one. Prior to the release of Lunar Catastrophe, I thought it was easily the best Ultimate Doom replacement megawad I had ever played. Or at least, the first two episodes, as the third one features some particularly frustrating maps, including the infuriatingly cryptic E3M1; as such, I have never bothered finishing it.

I also wish the super-secret E1M10 level could be accessed in-game and not just through a console command. It is a pretty fun Tom Hall-style map!

This post has been edited by johnnythewolf: 02 June 2019 - 09:57 AM

NNC

#355 Posted 02 June 2019 - 10:12 AM

ReaperAA, on 02 June 2019 - 09:40 AM, said:

Yes. Forgive me for not worshipping Romero.

It's not a worship mate, it's just the two are not comparable. Can you show me something as good looking as E5M5 or E5M6 from NEIS? I remember the third episode started with an empty, confusing level, and it didn't get any better after that.

Zaxx

Banned

#356 Posted 02 June 2019 - 12:07 PM

Overall I can't help but think that the people who like SIGIL are the ones who are kind of bored of the more formulaic Doom megawads and just want something that feels a bit fresh and interesting. On the other hand packs like Doom the Way id Did and No End in Sight won't provide anything new since the goal of them is literally to copy the original maps but they will give you some "deja vu" nostalgia you may be happy to see.

This post has been edited by Zaxx: 02 June 2019 - 12:08 PM

NightFright

The Truth is in here

#357 Posted 02 June 2019 - 12:29 PM

If you need to compare Romero's work with any from the Doom community, it's better to refer to a project done by one person and not several. Basically for the sake of fairness.

There are good fan project out there, no doubts about it. But crying out loud "Ha! Comm is mapping better than one of Doom's creators" feels kinda childish. If you like other kinds of maps better than what Sigil has to offer - fair enough. Romero aimed for a certain style and followed through with it. The episode has its highs and lows, such as the other classic episodes and many fan projects as well.

I had fun with this - you just gotta accept that UV is closer to Nightmare in this one and you are better off with HMP at least on your first playthrough. Once you figure out the secrets of the maps, you'll have less problems. That's why I think everybody should play this more than once to see how things work out if you know what to expect.

This post has been edited by NightFright: 02 June 2019 - 12:31 PM

ReaperAA

#358 Posted 02 June 2019 - 12:37 PM

Nancsi, on 02 June 2019 - 10:12 AM, said:

E1M7 of NEIS is a great level (in my opinion).

This post has been edited by ReaperAA: 02 June 2019 - 12:38 PM

ReaperAA

#359 Posted 02 June 2019 - 12:52 PM

NightFright, on 02 June 2019 - 12:29 PM, said:

Iit's better to refer to a project done by one person and not several. Basically for the sake of fairness.

Ok sure. I'll mention Valiant (32 map megawad by Skillsaw) then. Posted Image

But of course I am not saying that Sigil should have been like Valiant or any other modern flashy megawad like Eviternity, BTSX or Ancient Aliens. I should make it clear that I am not complaining that Sigil is not on par with modern doom wads. The levels are more or less what I expected from Romero. I am only saying that Sigil is not the second coming of Jesus that some people (atleast on DW forums) are claiming it to be.

Imagine if Sigil was released exactly as is, but from some random mapper rather than Romero. Would it have received the same praise? Definitely not.

This post has been edited by ReaperAA: 02 June 2019 - 12:54 PM

johnnythewolf

#360 Posted 02 June 2019 - 02:23 PM

What I would really like to see is John Romero making his own Doom III. By which, I do not mean a demake of 2004's Doom 3, but rather a megawad that acts as a direct Doom II sequel and tries to further improve upon the Classic Doom formula through the addition of new weapons, items, monsters and textures. Basically, think of it as Final Doom if it had been more than just a commercially-released community map pack or even Doom 64 if it had been done in-house and not by a third party.

Of course, I am not holding my breath, as I reckon it would quite an undertaking, but it would be interesting nonetheless.

This post has been edited by johnnythewolf: 02 June 2019 - 02:28 PM