Why did DNF have a weapon carrying limit?
#31 Posted 20 February 2019 - 06:19 PM
Two weapon system didn't bother me too much. It's not like you're using ten weapons all at once; you're only shooting from one gun at all time. Even if you do carry 10 guns, if the game gives you no ammo for it, you can't use it anyways so what's the difference? (It only benefits the cheaters that use dnweapons or impulse101). Like that Battlelord fight, it pretty much only gives you rpg ammo, so that's what you'll be using. That's said, there are successful console games that let you carry all ten, and some successful ones that restrict you to only two.
#32 Posted 21 February 2019 - 10:12 AM
Tea Monster, on 18 February 2019 - 04:17 PM, said:
Loading times were long because assets were large. Assets were large because George restarted development on DNF every time he farted, as opposed to sticking with an iteration he decided to scrap in 2003 because reasons, and which would have run wonderfully smooth on a console that came out in 2005.
This post has been edited by Altered Reality: 21 February 2019 - 10:15 AM
#33 Posted 21 February 2019 - 12:56 PM
Altered Reality, on 21 February 2019 - 10:12 AM, said:
Did George own the company at that time? If not, I'd have thought that his boss would have said words to the effect of "Look, you've been making this game for far too long, it's years overdue, so I'm putting my foot down. I want it finished and ready for shipping by November the 31st, no ifs or buts."
This post has been edited by Kerr Avon: 21 February 2019 - 12:57 PM
#34 Posted 21 February 2019 - 01:54 PM
Kerr Avon, on 21 February 2019 - 12:56 PM, said:
didn't George owned 50% of 3D Realms?, Scott Miller owned the other 50%, so he couldn't just overrule his decisions
This post has been edited by Lazy Dog: 21 February 2019 - 02:02 PM
#35 Posted 21 February 2019 - 02:59 PM
In this way I have a hard time blaming George. George did what George does. The other people in control of the company dropped the ball by not keeping George's faults at bay.
This post has been edited by Jimmy 100MPH: 21 February 2019 - 03:00 PM
#36 Posted 21 February 2019 - 04:42 PM
Jimmy 100MPH, on 21 February 2019 - 02:59 PM, said:
I'm under the impression he couldn't, because instead of doing so, he started Radar Group and brought the Prey IP with him, before selling it to Zenimax. Scott acted as if he wanted to run away from 3DRealms.
This post has been edited by Altered Reality: 21 February 2019 - 04:43 PM
#37 Posted 21 February 2019 - 06:09 PM
#38 Posted 22 February 2019 - 12:59 AM
Altered Reality, on 18 February 2019 - 04:01 PM, said:
The performance was so fucking shit on consoles that it basically was a PC exclusive.
#39 Posted 22 February 2019 - 01:02 AM
Futuretime23, on 18 February 2019 - 02:56 PM, said:
George's quotes in responding the criticism the 2 weapon limit got:
"Except dnf uses the dpad for items like holoduke, duke vision, etc. There are only so many buttons.
THEN MAKE A WEAPON WHEEL YOU LAZY FAT FUCK! DO YOU KNOW OF WEAPON WHEELS, YOU INCOMPETENT PIECE OF SHIT?
Sorry, that quote triggered me... a Duke game with a 2 weapon limit, fuck everyone involved.
This post has been edited by Zaxx: 22 February 2019 - 01:03 AM
#40 Posted 22 February 2019 - 06:23 AM
#41 Posted 22 February 2019 - 07:24 AM
Zaxx, on 22 February 2019 - 12:59 AM, said:
Maybe on the PS3, I don't know as I've not played it, but I saw no problems with the frame-rate or juddering or even graphical glitches on the XBox 360 version. The loading times were longer than in most games (even from the hard-drive, as the 360 allowed you to install games to the hard drive for faster loading), but not long enough to put me off the game, and I don't think I saw any bugs or accidental clipping either. I can't say the game was technically perfect, I just don't recall any aspects of it's performance being bad enough to lodge in my memory, which granted does say much.
What really put me of the game (the XBox 360 version, the only version I've played), so much so that it ruined the game for me was the actual game design flaws, such as boring boss battles, the game feeling too linear (linear games can be great, especially if they manage to make you forget that it's linear, but in DNF you're always aware that it's linear), the enjoyment-free parts where you're shrunk down and have to do the tedious platform or driving scenes, the weapon carrying limit, the recharging health, no feeling of achievement when you did something, the game world feeling artificial (even though it's no more artificial than in most games, strangely), blah blah blah.
But most of all, because DNF was boring. And the worst fault a game can have is to be boring, and not make you want to continue playing it. A fairly enjoyable game that's too short, has awful graphics, is very badly bugged, and a story that makes no sense, is still miles and miles better than a boring game. Even a boring game with DNF's (very few) good points like good graphics (I think, but then I still play on the N64 and PS2, so I'm not too great at judging graphics as I'm used to really old and simple graphics too), some good weapons, no crashes (that I can remember), and no unskippable cutscenes (again, as far as I can remember).
MusicallyInspired, on 22 February 2019 - 06:23 AM, said:
The earliest console FPS that I know of that had a weapon wheel for weapon selection was the N64 version Turok 2, released in 1998. For some reason, the weapon wheel method didn't seem to catch on with many console FPSs, some games had it, but others just went with other methods, such as assigning the weapons to the D-Pad (such as the way Half-Life 2 on the original XBox and the XBox 360 divided the weapons up into four classes, and you quick-selected the weapons by pressing the D-Pad once or twice or three times using the D-Pad direction related to the class of the weapon, a method similar to how you did it on the PC version of the game, and it worked really well on the consoles.
It's not unusual to see a weapon wheel on a console FPS, but it's not a given, either. Though if you ask me, it should be included in all console FPSs in case anyone wants to use it. I've always said the player should be given choices in control settings, regardless of the hardware platform.
#42 Posted 22 February 2019 - 08:00 AM
#43 Posted 22 February 2019 - 09:52 AM
MusicallyInspired, on 22 February 2019 - 08:00 AM, said:
No, I said that Turok 2, not the first Turok, had the weapon wheel (which does show you all of your carried weapons in a sort of circle, and you select your weapon that way). In Turok 1 and DN64, you had to move sequentially through the weapons that you carried to get to the one you wanted to select. That's not an ideal weapon selection method, especially if the game has quite a few weapons, or if you need to changed weapons very quickly, but it is the one that's most common on console FPS, especially in the older games. Quite a few console FPSs do offer a second way of selecting a weapon other than going backwards or forwards through them, such as being able to pause the game and select your weapon from a quick menu, or being able to assign a weapon choice to a D-Pad direction, but since nowadays most FPs are Halo/CoD wannabees with just a couple of weapons, the only control needed is a single button for 'Swap weapon'. Apparently it's called progress...
Here is Turok 2's Weapon Wheel (which, if I remember rightly is not a default option, you have to select either a weapon wheel, or the usual console FPS weapon-selection method (move forward or backwards though the weapons)in the options menu, so you can only use one of the two weapon-selection methods during the game, unlike most games that offer two or more options, as they tend to allow all options to be usable in game at any time:
Mind you, the way gaming is being dumbed down for a larger and more casual audience, modern developers probably think that having a choice of two weapons might be too demanding for some gamers, and so the next generation of FPSs will just have one weapon in the entire game. And given the ever growing effects of extreme political correctness on culture and free speech, the games' 'weapon' probably won't be a gun or anything else that can cause harm, it will be (as the games' developers will put it) "Not a weapon in the conventional sense, but instead it will be the far more powerful spoken word. The player's character will be a straight, respectful male who is fully ashamed of his being male, and straight, because (as we far-left people all know, even though the evidence contradicts us) only straight males are bad and evil, all women/gays/non-whites are lovely people who never do anything wrong."
"And the game's hero, having learned that all bad things are cause by straight white males, will use his wholesome and thoroughly non-gender specific, non-violent, non-discriminatory modern attitude of superior wisdom and newly found self-hatred, to explain to violent/evil/angry white males that they should stop being evil, and if they don't then they'll end up in prison. Even though we (the extreme politcal left) are trying to get prisons closed down because we don't believe that prison stops crime (why take note of the mountains of evidence, when we can just believe what we want to believe?) and prisoners all are lovely people who just rape and kill because they were never told not to, it was all their parents' fault".
Yep, the next Duke Nukem game might be the one where, instead of shooting the enemies who want to kill you, you instead go around giving those enemies leaflets about the evil of violence, and, if necessary, forcing them to have group hugs and going to seminars where they're told not to commit murder, and warned that if they do kill anyone, then they'll have to do some community work. BECAUSE COMMUNITY SERVICE WORKS, BUT PRISON DOES NOT.
And then the game will get banned just before release, because it's the year 2025, and we're all so brain-washed by "the ban free speech", "don't think for yourself", "you can say anything you like, provided it's something we agree with" mindset that the game will be banned because Duke is wearing blue trousers, and there's a worry that the colour blue might offend one armed transvestites because the word 'blue' rhymes with the word 'Sue', and one of the transvestites might call itself* 'Sue''.
* I say 'Itself" since by 2025 it might well be illegal to say "He" or "She", so we'll all have to say "It" when referring to anyone be they male or female, tall or short, fat or thin....
This post has been edited by Kerr Avon: 22 February 2019 - 10:37 AM
#44 Posted 22 February 2019 - 12:46 PM
This post has been edited by Zaxx: 22 February 2019 - 12:47 PM
#46 Posted 22 February 2019 - 12:54 PM
This is the friend George should have found too.
#47 Posted 22 February 2019 - 01:43 PM
#48 Posted 23 February 2019 - 06:47 AM
MusicallyInspired, on 22 February 2019 - 12:50 PM, said:
Yeah, there are loads of games that have mulitple weapons at once and the console doesn't explode and people's fingers don't fall off. That is why the console excuse was so annoying - it's a non-entity.
Half Life 2 came out in 2004 and it used the D-pad to scroll through loads of weapons.
#49 Posted 23 February 2019 - 09:55 AM
Futuretime23, on 22 February 2019 - 01:43 PM, said:
And Resistance felt old schoolish(it also aged quite a bit). Resistance 2 on the other hand went full CoD with 2 weapon limit, regen health and disjointed levels. It was still all right, though. But once you get into first Resistance it felt better and more adventurous to continue. Also, Europe. It obviously channelled that WW2 feel.
#50 Posted 23 February 2019 - 12:41 PM
Tea Monster, on 23 February 2019 - 06:47 AM, said:
What is even more annoying is that the console excuse is basically a lie to hide the real reason behind a 2 weapon system.
Bioshock Infinite had a 2 weapon system instead of the weapon wheel of the previous games while the game's marketing decidedly took a turn to portray Infinite as this cool game where you're a cool dude shooting at things. When the controversy for the "man with a gun" cover art came up Ken Levine even admitted that there was an aim to market the game towards "fratboys" ~ idiots.
Two weapons are easier to manage during gameplay than a full arsenal (less decisions, less fiddling with buttons) and on top of that it was Halo and Call of Duty that popularized that mechanic = games that fratboys play too. The general idea is that if you want a successful mass market product then you have to appeal to the biggest audience possible = you'll want to use the two weapon limit from CoD because that's what everyone knows.
If you wrap your head around that then DNF's "Douche Nukem" will make a lot more sense too. By the end the goal of 3D Realms was not to make a good Duke game but rather to make a product for the mass market that will sell tons of copies (ironically this is partially why the game failed).
This post has been edited by Zaxx: 23 February 2019 - 12:44 PM
#51 Posted 23 February 2019 - 05:20 PM
also 4 pipebombs. seriously? previous game i could carry 50!
This post has been edited by Lazy Dog: 23 February 2019 - 05:28 PM
#52 Posted 24 February 2019 - 12:56 PM
Zaxx, on 23 February 2019 - 12:41 PM, said:
Bioshock Infinite had a 2 weapon system instead of the weapon wheel of the previous games while the game's marketing decidedly took a turn to portray Infinite as this cool game where you're a cool dude shooting at things. When the controversy for the "man with a gun" cover art came up Ken Levine even admitted that there was an aim to market the game towards "fratboys" ~ idiots.
Two weapons are easier to manage during gameplay than a full arsenal (less decisions, less fiddling with buttons) and on top of that it was Halo and Call of Duty that popularized that mechanic = games that fratboys play too. The general idea is that if you want a successful mass market product then you have to appeal to the biggest audience possible = you'll want to use the two weapon limit from CoD because that's what everyone knows.
Most likely George just didn't like switching weapons on gamepad and "unnecessary" complexity in having too many weapons at once. In a way, he became a fratboy since he constantly played on 360 at that time.
2 weapon system probably is convenient when the game is designed around that. I certainly never felt that CoD suffered from having that limit, but to tack on the same system on DNF was plainly wrong. Not sure if he still believes he/they did the right thing.
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Duke was changed a bit towards douchiness after Gearbox took over, so we don't know if 3dr would approve it.
#53 Posted 24 February 2019 - 05:32 PM
Kathy, on 24 February 2019 - 12:56 PM, said:
Sure, it can be good game design if most of the weapons are very similar to each other or if most weapons can be used as your bread and butter. But in DNF? Your bread and butter weapon is the shotgun so that will take up one slot all the damn time limiting your choices to 1 slot basically and even that stops being the case when you're facing a boss because they need explosive weapons. On top of that Duke always had less useful / situational but fun and exotic weapons like the freezer and the shrinker... with a 2 weapon limit you basically exclude them from the gameplay.
And then you have problems like Duke's golden pistol: it looks fun but you will throw it away because of the weapon limit so have fun picking up regular, boring looking pistols after that. But hey, at least they patched in the option to have 4 weapons.
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Sure but honestly I never felt that Gearbox had much creative input and if I take all the other bad creative decisions the game has into consideration I don't think 3DR was above pulling something like that (though GBX has been using the Douche Nukem design ever since DNF).
This post has been edited by Zaxx: 24 February 2019 - 05:34 PM
#54 Posted 27 February 2019 - 06:23 AM
#55 Posted 27 February 2019 - 09:08 AM
This post has been edited by MusicallyInspired: 27 February 2019 - 09:10 AM
#56 Posted 27 February 2019 - 03:42 PM
MusicallyInspired, on 27 February 2019 - 09:08 AM, said:
Well...
But yeah, his DNF model is pretty bad.
#57 Posted 27 February 2019 - 04:41 PM
Zaxx, on 27 February 2019 - 03:42 PM, said:
But yeah, his DNF model is pretty bad.
his jeans are blue in-game, and those weapons aren't even in the game. Covers always Lie
#58 Posted 27 February 2019 - 04:59 PM
This post has been edited by MusicallyInspired: 27 February 2019 - 05:00 PM
#59 Posted 28 February 2019 - 10:12 PM
They were drumming up interest to gain further funding from Take Two. If you watch the (obnoxious) Jace Hall Show footage of the game, you'll notice that it's the Willis Duke/OG yellow gloves all the way up to the point he's in Gearbox's studio, where a new player model and gloves appear.
The mischaracterization of Duke was 100% Triptych and Gearbox. Again, George made many fatal mistakes but he would have never released DNF as it was released.
This post has been edited by Jimmy 100MPH: 28 February 2019 - 10:13 PM
#60 Posted 28 February 2019 - 11:07 PM
Also, it's worth noting that when Gearbox was first showing off DNF they had people watch the trailer behind closed doors and cameras weren't allowed to film. Someone inside got a photo, though, and the Duke that was used was the older 3DR Duke. After they were ready they released the same trailer to the public but it had the new Douche model instead. I'm sure that was no accident. I wonder what the reason was to change the image, though. It's like they were very particular about it.
This post has been edited by MusicallyInspired: 28 February 2019 - 11:07 PM