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Net Neutrality....2.0? 3.0?  "All will be decided Dec 14"

User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • The Sarien Encounter

#61

Uh, ok then.
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User is offline   ---- 

#62

One question from another country.

Here in a small town in Germany I can choose from at least four or five ISPs* that each offer at least five different sorts of contracts. So, I, as a someone using a lot of bandwidth, chose 100 Mbit with no traffic limit for roughly $35. But there are so many other offers for people needing less bandwidth or can live with some traffic limit, which then, of course, costs a lot less.

(I don't know if there are offering that only charge for what you used, but there are really cheap offers for those not needeing unlimited traffic with high speed)

Is that so much worse in the US when it comes to different offers?

Because here in Europe the NN-discussion is more about unlimited access to all sites and services without extra charge (i.e. not about the high bandwidth or high traffic limit needed by some services like Netflix, but more about being able to access it without being charged extra by your ISP just for using it (independently from traffic needs, because there are so many different offers**)).

Just asking to better understand the discussion.


*) In the countryside there are of course less ISPs to chose from.
**) which doesn't stop the ISPs from trying to also get money from for example Netflix for more traffic, although I am already paying more for the traffic to be able to use it (but, hey, every company in every field tries that).

EDIT:
I just checked: In our small town we can chose between 7 different IPS. My ISP offers five different types*** (plus a sixth for some type for only younger people with less money) and the biggest offers 10 different types of contracts.

***) only counted the types for non-business

This post has been edited by fuegerstef: 05 December 2017 - 01:21 AM

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#63

View PostBalls Of Steel Forever, on 04 December 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

Right now it's the people playing chess with the NSA, we're losing, but we're nowhere near checkmate.

Seriously... if you think you're playing chess with the NSA you need to doublethink your net usage.

You need to remember where the net came from, how many years have passed, and the consistent proven secret overreach compared to advertised and openly admitted functionality.

If you're dumb enough to think you're playing chess with the net, you're playing checkers and losing.
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#64

View Postfuegerstef, on 05 December 2017 - 12:56 AM, said:

Is that so much worse in the US when it comes to different offers?

For the most part in the US you get 1 realistic offer and maybe 1 or 2 alternatives that really aren't much different. The only meaningful differences are between rural satellite, DSL (phone line), cable, and in a few places fiber access.

There are packages but they have less to do with low bandwidth per month and more to do with raw speed per moment (unless you are a rural satellite user which is generally bandwidth based).

Both sides of the "basic" discussion about NN are full of shit, but right now Netflix, Google, Facebook, Amazon *depend* on a completely broken market to sustain their inability to generate an actual profit while expecting full near free access to the psyche of massive numbers of individuals because their ability to offload their costs make it easy to plug into those people's brains.

Netflix has no business still being in business. Amazon is the very essence of crony capitalism. Google (Alphabet) is so flagrantly a government agency setup to benefit from "private business" protections and avoid government restrictions it's obscene. Facebook really does love you, really.

This post has been edited by SeeJaneWun: 05 December 2017 - 02:38 AM

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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#65

View Postfuegerstef, on 05 December 2017 - 12:56 AM, said:

One question from another country.

I just checked: In our small town we can chose between 7 different IPS. My ISP offers five different types*** (plus a sixth for some type for only younger people with less money) and the biggest offers 10 different types of contracts.
***) only counted the types for non-business

In your case - you want net neutrality gone (as long as your chosen isp continues to protect your browsing history and not sell it to the highest bidder).
It would increase competition and you may get a better deal.
Also, if one isp wants to throttle or block certain traffic or sites, or charges you extra for "fast lane" service (e.g. normal speeds to all sites) - you can go to a competitor that doesn't mess with your connection.

My case - I'm screwed. Comcast is pretty much my only option. They own all the physical cable that connects to everyone's house - so no competitors can use it (freely). The phone lines are so crappy and degraded in my area that DSL isn't an option.

Satellite would be my only escape from comcast - but Dish network has the monopoly on the satellite around here. I'd be jumping from one evil empire to another.

This post has been edited by Forge: 05 December 2017 - 07:29 AM

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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • The Sarien Encounter

#66

I'm using satellite because I'm just outside of town on a farm and the prices are INSANE compared to a 10 minute drive away where the main providers are. But still, I wonder if after Net Neutrality is possibly repealed if those costs will go down? Monstrous single companies are in charge of the physical cable (and DSL), but the airwaves are up for grabs, no? If more people go to satellite would that not lower the cost?
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User is offline   Balls of Steel Forever 

  • Balls of Steel Forever

#67

View PostSeeJaneWun, on 05 December 2017 - 02:16 AM, said:

Seriously... if you think you're playing chess with the NSA you need to doublethink your net usage.

I'm not playing.
The government can definitely see all that I am, and I'm fine with it.

Well i just hope that tor was still able to have its original intent there, just in case we ever need to use it. Kind of like the 2nd amendment. *shrug* I'm in way over my head here. One day actual protections may take place, and i hope for that day.
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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#68

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 05 December 2017 - 09:35 AM, said:

but the airwaves are up for grabs, no?

depends on who put the geosynchronous communications satellite over your area.
the one floating over my head belongs to echostar (i.e.HughesNet/Dish Network).

As annoying as it is being stuck with comcast - their cable service is half the cost of satellite - and more reliable (especially with the poor weather during winter)
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User is offline   ---- 

#69

View PostForge, on 05 December 2017 - 07:28 AM, said:

Also, if one isp wants to throttle or block certain traffic or sites, or charges you extra for "fast lane" service (e.g. normal speeds to all sites) - you can go to a competitor that doesn't mess with your connection.

My case - I'm screwed. Comcast is pretty much my only option. They own all the physical cable that connects to everyone's house - so no competitors can use it (freely). The phone lines are so crappy and degraded in my area that DSL isn't an option.


We are lucky, here, then.

All cables and hardware once belonged to the government. They set up the whole infrastructure (back then it was mainly copper cables for phones). Then some 25 years or so ago the government made that organization a private enterprise*. But to allow better competition we have an official department who checks the prices for other ISPs that have to rent the infrastructure, so that the company who once belonged to the government and got the whole infrastructure built with taxpayers' money isn't allowed to push others out of the market.
The upside is that we have a lot of ISPs. The downside is that nobody really wants to bring "fibre to the home" in rural areas ... "hey, we have the copper cables".

EDIT: THe result is that NN isn't really discussed that much here, as most ISPs devliver enough bandwidth and no data cap anyways and there are enough other offers.
THere are a few very minor discussions (that people outside of the IT business aren't even aware of) about NN when it comes to cellphones and the data caps there.

*) You know them as T-Mobile, now, if you are from the US.

This post has been edited by fuegerstef: 05 December 2017 - 02:23 PM

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User is offline   Hank 

#70

This sums it up pretty good!

Attached Image: FFC.jpg

from
https://www.theverge...-for-the-future
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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • The Sarien Encounter

#71

Somebody explain this to me and tell me if this is a "the internet is a series of tubes" standpoint or not, and I think others have brought up parts of this point earlier. Would treating data unequally not mean that people who don't use high data sites like YouTube or play games online would simply pay for a package that doesn't include high speed access for those services? Would that not free up bandwidth (and savings) for people who DO use it to have a higher package? Would that not mean that prices wouldn't rise but drop? Or at least stay the same relatively? What's so bad about a "slow lane" for people who don't deal in high data traffic? That angle kind of lets me see net neutrality in a VERY socialist light and that most people are complaining about not being able to have the luxuries of the internet rather than basic access. Is that really a problem? Am I totally wrong?
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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#72

How isp's deal with their network package to their customers depends on the isp.
Some (especially those that have any competition) will probably change nothing, or deal out special packages aimed at customers that don't use streaming or gaming services.
Some (especially those that basically have a monopoly over their coverage area) could keep the prices jacked up to their current level & then micro-transaction the customers for access to streaming and gaming services.
And those monopolistic isp's could also deny you access to any web site they feel like filtering. They could prevent you from coming to Duke4 - just because.

In addition - no net neutrality means that isp's can sell their customer's browsing history to the highest bidder if they so desire. You think youtube commercials are bad - wait until your isp relentlessly targets you with advertising every time you turn your computer on.
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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • The Sarien Encounter

#73

Yes, obviously what they could do and what they will do will probably be entirely different and the jury's out on what actually comes of all that, but am I interpreting the function of internet traffic properly? If so, why was that "series of tubes" guy so mocked?
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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#74

I don't know what a "series of tubes" is supposed to mean, or why the guy was mocked.

There is no "freeing up" high-speed bandwidth. Generally - you are paying for X amount of bandwidth - whether you use it or not. That amount is available to you 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It's yours, you paid for it.

If you decide to stream videos, it has negligible effect on your neighbor who decides to play online games at the exact same time.

But it is like an overbooked airline - if every customer of an isp decides at that exact same moment to get on and watch netflix - the server's trunk will bottleneck and start cutting people off.
The chances of that happening are pretty slim, and the isp is counting on this to never happen. That's the socialist aspect of it.


Unless I missed the point again and you're talking about backbones and core routers

This post has been edited by Forge: 12 December 2017 - 10:27 AM

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User is online   Mark 

#75

View PostForge, on 12 December 2017 - 09:21 AM, said:

In addition - no net neutrality means that isp's can sell their customer's browsing history to the highest bidder if they so desire.


You mean the law does not allow it now if the ISP wishes to sell it? I thought the only thing holding that back was possible public outrage and a migration to a competitor if one exists.

This post has been edited by Mark.: 12 December 2017 - 10:52 AM

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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#76

View PostMark., on 12 December 2017 - 10:47 AM, said:

You mean the law does not allow it now if the ISP wishes to sell it? I thought the only thing holding that back was possible public outrage and a migration to a competitor if one exists.

Currently there are customer privacy provisions. Those will be gone if net neutrality is revoked.

https://www.epic.org.../netneutrality/

This post has been edited by Forge: 12 December 2017 - 11:04 AM

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User is online   Mark 

#77

OK. Thanks.
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User is online   Mark 

#78

I haven't really followed this closely. It looks like NN was implemented through a series of separate decisions and rules. Is Congress talking about a total repeal of all aspects of NN or are they doing it piecemeal like with Obamacare? Maybe some of the better aspects will survive.

This post has been edited by Mark.: 12 December 2017 - 02:21 PM

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User is offline   Hank 

#79

^ When FCC votes to eliminate Net Neutrality, and it will vote to do so, it will be gone.

The FTC is supposed to be the new watch dog, but has already been overruled by the courts, with the AT&T case, that it has no jurisdiction over actual ISP's workings.

Come Friday, you are at the mercy from who ever is your ISP. If you dislike their service you have the option to have no internet.

Will the world end? Nope. But I fail to see any good bids by giving a triad monopoly absolute freedom.

https://twitter.com/...%26autosize%3D1
The above shows the current FCC monkey joking that he is a Verizon's Puppet.
That too is a lie from him, I'm certain he sucks the dicks of all other major ISPs as well.
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User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • The Sarien Encounter

#80

The problem seems to be that corporations have sole ownership of the access points to the internet and the wiring infrastructure (cable and phone lines). Maybe we'll get more boosts in wireless technology and we can have other methods of access? (I wonder how Tesla would tackle this problem if he were alive today) It almost seems like dial-up was the safer bet because your phone provider wasn't necessarily the one providing your internet access.
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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#81

View PostHank, on 12 December 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

^ When FCC votes to eliminate Net Neutrality, and it will vote to do so, it will be gone.

Here's the list of who's been bought and who bought them.

https://www.theverge...gn-contribution

if you're a u.s. citizen, keep them in mind next time elections come up


as for selling your private information:
There is the possibility that these carrier companies could micro-transaction their customers for their privacy.


View PostMusicallyInspired, on 12 December 2017 - 03:39 PM, said:

The problem seems to be that corporations have sole ownership of the access points to the internet and the wiring infrastructure (cable and phone lines). Maybe we'll get more boosts in wireless technology and we can have other methods of access? (I wonder how Tesla would tackle this problem if he were alive today) It almost seems like dial-up was the safer bet because your phone provider wasn't necessarily the one providing your internet access.

mesh net?
it would be the ultimate socialist network - but it would still have to tap into the backbone at some point - especially if there were to be any trans-atlantic/pacific communications.

This post has been edited by Forge: 12 December 2017 - 05:01 PM

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User is offline   Paul B 

#82

By default they should keep net neutrality and for those who don't want it filter them! I am all for Net Neutrality and believe the internet should always be left as an open resource. If people don't want "open" then they should pay a premium for a filter service.

This post has been edited by Paul B: 12 December 2017 - 05:50 PM

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User is online   Mark 

#83

I don't have a smart phone, I don't stream games or movies, my monthly charges have been a constant uptick for decades. The only difference I have been able to glean from this is I could be deluged with ads from the ISP when they sell my info. Otherwise I don't see how having NN or not affects me.

This post has been edited by Mark.: 12 December 2017 - 07:13 PM

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User is offline   Hank 

#84

View PostMark., on 12 December 2017 - 07:13 PM, said:

I don't have a smart phone, I don't stream games or movies, my monthly charges have been a constant uptick for decades. The only difference I have been able to glean from this is I could be deluged with ads from the ISP when they sell my info. Otherwise I don't see how having NN or not affects me.

Fair enough.

Just one thing, as Forge suggested, what will you do if duke4 is on the ban list from your ISP? Say, for vulgar language and extreme anti PC content?

And yes, with the complex laws, left over, for as long as they (ISP) tell you in advance what they are about to do, they can not even be sued anymore, by you or anyone else. All they need to do is to inform you, in advance, that they will screen 'hate' sites to protect your children, or grandchildren. (Not that simple, but theoretically possible)

I use duckduckgo, to make a deep web searches. What if they only allow Google/Bink/Yahoo shit, because they confuse the deep web with the dark (criminal) web?

There is a saying:
When they came for such and such, I did not say anything. When they came for the other such and such, I did not say anything. Then they came for me, and no one was left to speak.

I tell you right now, get out of your lazy butt, and do the American thing, and fight for what is right, doesn't matter that you are fine right now with the service! :D
5

User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#85

View PostMark., on 12 December 2017 - 07:13 PM, said:

I don't have a smart phone, I don't stream games or movies, my monthly charges have been a constant uptick for decades. The only difference I have been able to glean from this is I could be deluged with ads from the ISP when they sell my info. Otherwise I don't see how having NN or not affects me.

You aren't groking.
The FCC removed the FTC authority
Now the FCC is relinquishing authority - and the FTC is powerless to enforce Section Code 222
The ISP's are(wil be) in charge of enforcing this themselves.
The only thing they are "required" to do is provide an opt-in & an opt-out for your private information.

---the opt-in/out doesn't have to be presented to you. It doesn't have to be part of your contract, service agreement, or privacy statement. You may not even know about its existence. You may have to physically call the isp and change your opt choices.

----there is nothing to regulate what is part of the opt-in or opt-out. The ISP's will determine that. Currently your opt-out are things like your web browser history, application usage,,& other non-sensitive material. The opt-in are things like your social security number, content of communications, financial and health information, information on your children, your i.p. address, your phone #, your mailing address, tracking programs being installed on your comp,,other sensitive personal information.

There is nothing that defines what is customer proprietary information. All the ISPs have to do is provide an opt-in/out, but they get to interpret the parameters. They could put nearly everything under the opt-out and bury it in a hole so deep, you'd never find it; all the while they're sharing your kids bus schedule & yours and your spouses work schedule with all the registered pedos in the neighborhood.

This post has been edited by Forge: 12 December 2017 - 08:25 PM

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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#86

View PostHank, on 12 December 2017 - 08:00 PM, said:

Just one thing, as Forge suggested, what will you do if duke4 is on the ban list from your ISP? Say, for vulgar language and extreme anti PC content?



This post has been edited by Forge: 12 December 2017 - 08:29 PM

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#87

View PostForge, on 12 December 2017 - 08:17 PM, said:

You aren't groking.

View PostForge, on 12 December 2017 - 08:17 PM, said:

There is nothing that defines what is customer proprietary information. All the ISPs have to do is...

I still don't understand why you think this isn't how things already are when it ever actually matters.
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#88

View PostForge, on 29 November 2017 - 10:46 PM, said:

It's like the EA of communications.

Well shit... I hit the max of upvotes.

And you still want me to believe the internet is currently free and under imminent threat from totalitarians.

Pish
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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#89

View PostSeeJaneWun, on 13 December 2017 - 01:43 AM, said:

I still don't understand why you think this isn't how things already are when it ever actually matters.

The NSA, FCC, FTC, CITA, ABCDEFGHI, and Anne Frank already have my sensitive personal information - they just can't "legally" sell it to a third party without my consent.


View PostSeeJaneWun, on 13 December 2017 - 02:50 AM, said:

Well shit... I hit the max of upvotes.

And you still want me to believe the internet is currently free and under imminent threat from totalitarians.

Pish

Being spied on is different than being extorted.

I should determine if I want to visit Duke4.net, not some cunt sitting in a comcast office in Seattle who may decide that Duke Nukem is too misogynist and patriarchal to be experienced by my delicate psyche.

This post has been edited by Forge: 13 December 2017 - 09:01 AM

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User is online   Mark 

#90

Wow, so many upvotes from SeeJaneWun. I feel obligated to "put out" on a date now. :D
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