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Net Neutrality....2.0? 3.0?  "All will be decided Dec 14"

User is offline   Hank 

#31

View PostBalls Of Steel Forever, on 02 December 2017 - 08:10 PM, said:

No.
It's currently on the decline.
Just like the general intelligence of the human species.

You may have miss it.
Power is power, irrespective of its size, imagined or measured.
Thus, fight on, or don't.
I say: A lot of small shits still can make a huge stink. Despite the cleaners of the dominate brands.
AND do not underestimate the strength of homo sapience.

This post has been edited by Hank: 02 December 2017 - 09:31 PM

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User is offline   Balls of Steel Forever 

  • Balls of Steel Forever

#32

View PostHank, on 02 December 2017 - 09:26 PM, said:

Thus, fight on, or don't.

that has been societies problem
fight or flight.

the sad fact is everyone chooses flight nowadays.

I completely agree with you on everything else,
but there's a huge difference between talking the talk,
and walking the walk.

We need to start walking.
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User is offline   Hank 

#33

View PostBalls Of Steel Forever, on 02 December 2017 - 11:30 PM, said:

We need to start walking.

Yep, it's only ten days for this fucking vote to take place!
In the link below are some sites listed, you(or anyone else) can 'walk' to and 'walk' together.
https://www.battleforthenet.com/

This post has been edited by Hank: 04 December 2017 - 02:48 PM

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User is offline   Mark 

#34

I'm too lazy to do a Google search for the answers. What has been demonstrably improved since NN was implemented?
1

User is offline   Hank 

#35

View PostMark., on 04 December 2017 - 04:46 PM, said:

I'm too lazy to do a Google search for the answers. What has been demonstrably improved since NN was implemented?

The Internet grew, and is alive and well. :D

It's a very basic outline on how those offering ISP service ought to conduct business. It will not stop greed and hard ball business; but it does not grand a carte blanche to provide a Biased Net either. ;)
1

User is offline   Mark 

#36

The reason I ask is because I can't see any way that before and after NN were any different concerning me and my internet. Speeds increased, choices increased, prices increased and I had the same provider for decades. I have nothing tangible to show what good NN did for me and why I would miss it.

This post has been edited by Mark.: 04 December 2017 - 05:50 PM

1

User is offline   Hank 

#37

View PostMark., on 04 December 2017 - 05:48 PM, said:

The reason I ask is because I can't see any way that before and after NN were any different concerning me and my internet. Speeds increased, choices increased, prices increased and I had the same provider for decades. I have nothing tangible to show what good NN did for me and why I would miss it.

Maybe this humorous look, from 2014, will help. This fight has been going on for a while now.


To the bold: What choices are you referring too?
All I want from my ISP is uninhibited access to the www,
1

#38

View PostHank, on 04 December 2017 - 07:03 PM, said:

All I want from my ISP is uninhibited access to the www,

All I want from my ISP is to pay less than the guy watching 24/7 Netflix, youtube, and Porn. Seriously my internet usage I'm actually invested enough in to pay for explicitly could be reduced to a T9 phone so long as the websites are legible.

Work with me, man.
0

User is offline   TerminX 

  • el fundador

  #39

View PostSeeJaneWun, on 04 December 2017 - 07:07 PM, said:

All I want from my ISP is to pay less than the guy watching 24/7 Netflix, youtube, and Porn. Seriously my internet usage I'm actually invested enough in to pay for explicitly could be reduced to a T9 phone so long as the websites are legible.

Work with me, man.

You'll both pay more than you do now, but you will indeed pay less than the guy streaming 24/7.
1

#40

View PostTerminX, on 04 December 2017 - 07:09 PM, said:

You'll both pay more than you do now, but you will indeed pay less than the guy streaming 24/7.

Given my cell phone experience which is founded on pay to play, this is extremely unlikely, and with a bit of effort I could probably drop those costs in half to a quarter.

Do you think Netflix is abusing the current arrangement?
0

User is offline   Hank 

#41

View PostSeeJaneWun, on 04 December 2017 - 07:07 PM, said:

Work with me, man.


View PostHank, on 30 November 2017 - 03:48 PM, said:

Bottom line, I need the Internet also to conduct business, thus my decision is final. Keep the Net Neutrality.


Love ya, but, I see no reason you cain't fight for what you and Forge want; and only pay for what you use.
1

#42

View PostHank, on 30 November 2017 - 03:48 PM, said:

Bottom line, I need the Internet also to conduct business, thus my decision is final.

Genuine question out of ignorance. Knowing what you know about the bandwidth throttling potential in the *worst* case scenarios proposed under the "package" programs, do you genuinely think your business bandwidth will enter the spectrum that throttling will occur, and if it did, that the throttling would reach a level your customers would notice or care about? Not principle of the matter, but brass tacks generating revenue and making business decision effects.

In network world shaving off hundreds of milliseconds might save enormous costs. But in your business, is your business operating at the millisecond level? Are your customers lost at the quarter second level?

This post has been edited by SeeJaneWun: 04 December 2017 - 07:50 PM

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User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#43

giants like comcast already charge too much & they can basically charge as much as they want anyway with or without net neutrality.
Generally, yes, I'm paying for someone else's bandwidth so they can stream porn or netflix while all I'm doing is checking my email. But that's the price I will pay if I want all traffic and web site access to be equal.

What I don't like is if someone at comcast (NBC) decides that I'm no longer allowed to look at foxnews.com (if I ever wanted to).

It should be like a utility - i'll pay for what ever wattage I use, but don't tell me that I have to decide between my water-pump (well) or refrigeration, if I'm already paying enough for both.

This post has been edited by Forge: 04 December 2017 - 07:51 PM

3

#44

View PostForge, on 04 December 2017 - 07:48 PM, said:

What I don't like is if someone at comcast (NBC) decides that I'm no longer allowed to look at foxnews.com (if I ever wanted to).

Thus why both paths are currently nonsense and my frustration.

One results in even if it wants to pretend otherwise "everyone should subsidize FAANG no matter how totalitarian they get and how much of the system they consume" the other pretends it won't eventually result in "We should cut you off from anonimerika".

Fuck'em both.
0

User is offline   Hank 

#45

View PostSeeJaneWun, on 04 December 2017 - 07:44 PM, said:

Genuine question out of ignorance. Knowing what you know about the bandwidth throttling potential in the *worst* case scenarios proposed under the "package" programs, do you genuinely think your business bandwidth will enter the spectrum that throttling will occur, and if it did, that the throttling would reach a level your customers would notice or care about? Not principle of the matter, but brass tacks generating revenue and making business decision effects.

In network world shaving off hundreds of milliseconds might save enormous costs. But in your business, is your business operating at the millisecond level? Are your customers lost at the quarter second level?

Staw man and a bit of Argumentum ad Hominem? :D

Why is Net Neutrality important for businesses?

Net Neutrality is crucial for small business owners, startups and entrepreneurs, who rely on the open internet to launch their businesses, create markets, advertise their products and services, and reach customers. We need the open internet to foster job growth, competition and innovation.

Net Neutrality lowers the barriers of entry by preserving the internet’s fair and level playing field. It’s because of Net Neutrality that small businesses and entrepreneurs have been able to thrive online.

No company should be allowed to interfere with this open marketplace. ISPs are the internet’s gatekeepers, and without Net Neutrality, they would seize every possible opportunity to profit from that gatekeeper position.

Without Net Neutrality, the next Google or Facebook would never get off the ground.
1

#46

View PostHank, on 04 December 2017 - 08:07 PM, said:

the open internet

Tell me specifically what that is.

Note I'm ignoring that you avoided the important question for now.

This post has been edited by SeeJaneWun: 04 December 2017 - 08:10 PM

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User is offline   Hank 

#47

View PostSeeJaneWun, on 04 December 2017 - 08:08 PM, said:

Tell me specifically what that is.

Note I'm ignoring that you avoided the important question for now.

Show me the exact wording and I may answer.

What important question?
1

#48

View PostHank, on 04 December 2017 - 08:17 PM, said:

Show me the exact wording and I may answer.

I quoted it precisely.

View PostHank, on 04 December 2017 - 08:07 PM, said:

the open internet

What precisely is the open internet.

View PostHank, on 04 December 2017 - 08:17 PM, said:

What important question?

View PostSeeJaneWun, on 04 December 2017 - 07:44 PM, said:

Knowing what you know about the bandwidth throttling potential in the *worst* case scenarios proposed under the "package" programs, do you genuinely think your business bandwidth will enter the spectrum that throttling will occur, and if it did, that the throttling would reach a level your customers would notice or care about? Not principle of the matter, but brass tacks generating revenue and making business decision effects.

In network world shaving off hundreds of milliseconds might save enormous costs. But in your business, is your business operating at the millisecond level? Are your customers lost at the quarter second level?

0

User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#49

View PostSeeJaneWun, on 04 December 2017 - 07:59 PM, said:

Thus why both paths are currently nonsense and my frustration.

One results in even if it wants to pretend otherwise "everyone should subsidize FAANG no matter how totalitarian they get and how much of the system they consume" the other pretends it won't eventually result in "We should cut you off from anonimerika".

Fuck'em both.

Ideally - yes, it'd be great if I only paid for the bandwidth I used AND that traffic & web access were all equal. My bill would be fairly small.

There has always been a FAANG, maybe with different acronyms, but there was always someone who tried to control internet access and network media. Be it the internet explorer monopoly to AOL, there's always those few that think they have the internet by the nuts. Those companies come and go every 5 to 10 years. Usually greed does them in, then they get replaced with the next new thing the following generation gets hooked on.

Does it suck that part of our net bill goes to keep those assholes afloat while they remain popular (then subsidize their replacement)?
Yeah. pretty much.
I live in Washington state. I buy shit off the internet. I don't pay sales taxes that I normally would if I bought it out of a local store. Bonus for me.
Give and take. Compromise where I can.

Rather pay a flat rate and have access everything then have to pay a base fee & get microtransactioned out of my paycheck just to, buy something online, look at my email, and play a couple steam games I already own.

This post has been edited by Forge: 04 December 2017 - 08:48 PM

2

User is offline   Balls of Steel Forever 

  • Balls of Steel Forever

#50

View PostSeeJaneWun, on 04 December 2017 - 08:26 PM, said:

What precisely is the open internet.

Tor
ISPs are able to detect anyone using tor or a vpn,
now they would be able to throttle them,
making it nigh completely useless.

The truly open internet would barely be accessible.

I apologize for interjecting my own opinion.
Where it's not my place.
Spoiler


This post has been edited by Balls Of Steel Forever: 04 December 2017 - 08:54 PM

2

User is offline   Hank 

#51

View PostSeeJaneWun, on 04 December 2017 - 08:26 PM, said:

I quoted it precisely.

What precisely is the open internet.

https://dictionary.c...ry/english/open
and
https://dictionary.c...internet-access

As for the milliseconds, bandwidth, wont go there. It is not the core of Net Neutrality, as I see it, it's one aspect of potential abuse, only.

View PostForge, on 04 December 2017 - 07:48 PM, said:

It should be like a utility - i'll pay for what ever wattage I use, but don't tell me that I have to decide between my water-pump (well) or refrigeration, if I'm already paying enough for both.

... and this should be the next fight!

This post has been edited by Hank: 04 December 2017 - 08:51 PM

2

#52

View PostBalls Of Steel Forever, on 04 December 2017 - 08:47 PM, said:

Tor

You are absurd. Tor is intel heaven. Right now today. WTF is wrong with you folks. Any of you who think you have done ANYTHING on the net that is not only recorded but identifiable is completely absurd.

View PostBalls Of Steel Forever, on 04 December 2017 - 08:47 PM, said:

now they would be able to throttle them

They already can and anyone complaining would be ignored.
1

#53

You dodged everything, Hank. Which I admire. But you still didn't actually reply in a way that will stand up to scrutiny and I leave that to a future inquiry.
1

User is offline   Danukem 

  • Duke Plus Developer

#54

View PostMark., on 04 December 2017 - 05:48 PM, said:

The reason I ask is because I can't see any way that before and after NN were any different concerning me and my internet. Speeds increased, choices increased, prices increased and I had the same provider for decades. I have nothing tangible to show what good NN did for me and why I would miss it.


I found this informative:

https://www.wired.co...net-neutrality/

The key claim is that given current law and court precedents, designating broadband providers as "common carriers" under Title II of the Communications Act (as Obama's FCC did) is necessary in order to preserve net neutrality. There does seem to be decent support for this claim (see linked article). We have, by and large, enjoyed net neutrality up until now. This is partly due to voluntary compliance, and partly due to actions of the FCC in the past.

The sky is not falling and the end of Obama-era FCC regulations will not bring about the internet apocalypse right away. It's even possible that a combination of new court decisions and Federal Trade Commission intervention could maintain net neutrality without the FCC rules. But there is a real threat. The FCC rules are far from perfect, but simply doing away with them in the absence of something to replace them seems rash at best.
2

User is offline   Balls of Steel Forever 

  • Balls of Steel Forever

#55

View PostSeeJaneWun, on 04 December 2017 - 08:56 PM, said:

You are absurd. Tor is intel heaven. Right now today. WTF is wrong with you folks. Any of you who think you have done ANYTHING on the net that is not only recorded but identifiable is completely absurd.

Right now it's the people playing chess with the NSA, we're losing, but we're nowhere near checkmate.
(removal of NN would be checkmate)
The NSA tries to collect data,
The people do stuff like this...
NSA
or many other ways the people have found out about how the NSA collects data, and tried to collect data, such as by EGOTISTICALGIRAFFE from tor.
which that exploit soon ceased to exist.
Tor will always have a weakness, we just have to repair it and it'll work like new.

View PostSeeJaneWun, on 04 December 2017 - 08:56 PM, said:

They already can and anyone complaining would be ignored.

But as of right now, from a NN stand point there would be no reason to.
but if NN get's thrown away, then well we're sol.
1

User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • The Sarien Encounter

#56



View PostHank, on 04 December 2017 - 08:07 PM, said:

Without Net Neutrality, the next Google or Facebook would never get off the ground.


That's not a great example...
1

User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#57

View PostSeeJaneWun, on 04 December 2017 - 08:56 PM, said:

You are absurd. Tor is intel heaven. Right now today. WTF is wrong with you folks. Any of you who think you have done ANYTHING on the net that is not only recorded but identifiable is completely absurd.
They already can and anyone complaining would be ignored.

people are funny if they think fancy proxy servers and encrypted headers hide the protocols and packets going through their isp's server. All that does is put a thin smoke screen between you and the computer at the other end of the communication. It doesn't hide anything from your isp - they can read the return packets going to your computer to know what you're up to.
They keep your record for 18 months.

Net neutrality means the fcc and the isp are pretty much the only ones who have access to that info and the isp could be charged with a cirme for mishandling private information.
No net neutrality and the isp can sell your data and browsing history - or make it public record. Removal of all consumer privacy provisions.

The FTC will have no legal authority to police ISP's
https://www.epic.org.../netneutrality/

All I can say is, if they kill net neutrality - you better carefully read the terms of service when your contract comes due to renew your internet service subscription.
3

User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#58

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 04 December 2017 - 09:31 PM, said:

*crowder video*
^
That's not a great example...

That, indeed, is not a great example.

counter-example:
Why would youtube (or any other site with a large user base) be in favor of net neutrality?
Not some altruistic reason, or because it generally lets them avoid transparency.
More likely because they don't want traffic to their site throttled.

They already had issues with companies pulling their ads because of certain content - they don't need the isp's also controlling their content through what is essentially traffic control blackmail.

This post has been edited by Forge: 04 December 2017 - 10:01 PM

1

User is offline   MusicallyInspired 

  • The Sarien Encounter

#59

I didn't post the video as an example for anything. Just posting it because it's relevant. Again, I have no biases one way or the other at this point. I simply can't decide.
1

User is offline   Forge 

  • Speaker of the Outhouse

#60

View PostMusicallyInspired, on 04 December 2017 - 10:12 PM, said:

I didn't post the video as an example for anything.

psst. I know that. I was using your own words from a separate response to Hank, but within the same post, to accentuate a disagreement I expressed towards one of the evaluations the person in the video had concluded. Thanks for noticing me though. :D

This post has been edited by Forge: 04 December 2017 - 10:34 PM

1

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