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Duke 3D #1
They are located on the cover CD of the February 1996 issue of the magazine:
http://www.kultcds.c...07&f=$2FCd$2FQz
The image of the CD is available from archive.org if anyone's interested:
https://archive.org/details/score0296
Powerslave/Exhumed General Discussion "Split from Build Engine thread"
#91 Posted 19 May 2016 - 06:41 AM
I'm not sure which place is better to post this in, but I've just been browsing the contents of coverdisks that came with the SCORE magazine using Hallfiry's catalogue and found a bunch of pre-release screenshots from Ruins: Return of the Gods:
They are located on the cover CD of the February 1996 issue of the magazine:
http://www.kultcds.c...07&f=$2FCd$2FQz
The image of the CD is available from archive.org if anyone's interested:
https://archive.org/details/score0296
They are located on the cover CD of the February 1996 issue of the magazine:
http://www.kultcds.c...07&f=$2FCd$2FQz
The image of the CD is available from archive.org if anyone's interested:
https://archive.org/details/score0296
#92 Posted 19 May 2016 - 06:54 AM
2nd and 4th screenshot are definitely recognizable. 5th screen looks like Lev10, the area before the battle against Set.
It looks like a TON was already made by 3DRealms when Lobotomy acquired the game.
It looks like a TON was already made by 3DRealms when Lobotomy acquired the game.
#93 Posted 22 May 2016 - 12:48 AM
I have started replaying the game, again, this time using the real strafing patch since the beginning.
It is very obvious that the game was not designed with real strafing in mind. The problem is that, when you use the patch, you are able to strafe and move forward/backward at the same time, which isn't possible in the original game.
Doing so will give you a speed boost, and therefore will make you perform bigger jumps.
I thought that the "strafe + forward/backward" making the player faster was a DN3D thing, but apparently it's a Build thing. Correct me if I'm wrong.
So as a consequence, there is a LOT of sequence breaking you can do in this game that way. In Lev08 you can jump straight from the beginning area to the end sprite (though you'd miss the Rah Gauntlet that way).
Now of course, even without this patch, you could do that much sequence breaking and much more by using the "strafe key + mouse movement" high speed glitch, but with that one it's obvious you're not supposed to go THAT fast, while when using the real strafing patch, the speed difference isn't that obvious and one who isn't aware may sequence break without realizing it.
I still love the game but it means that if we ever get a sourceport, similar real strafing will be implemented and people will be sequence breaking without even knowing they're not supposed to "real strafe".
Same for anyone playing the game for the first time using that patch.
So it would be nice if someone could fix the speed boost given by the strafe+forward/backward in that patch.... So that we can enjoy real strafing without worrying about sequence breaking.
This whole thing had me wondering... the fact that originally you can only strafe in straight lines doesn't seem natural, after all previous FPS games had much more free strafing. What if the devs realized only too late that strafe+forward can lead to a lot of sequence breaking and decided to block strafing to straight lines as a "fix" ? Does that sound likely?
Also does anyone have the list of level names?
Edit : here it is thanks to Lunick
It is very obvious that the game was not designed with real strafing in mind. The problem is that, when you use the patch, you are able to strafe and move forward/backward at the same time, which isn't possible in the original game.
Doing so will give you a speed boost, and therefore will make you perform bigger jumps.
I thought that the "strafe + forward/backward" making the player faster was a DN3D thing, but apparently it's a Build thing. Correct me if I'm wrong.
So as a consequence, there is a LOT of sequence breaking you can do in this game that way. In Lev08 you can jump straight from the beginning area to the end sprite (though you'd miss the Rah Gauntlet that way).
Now of course, even without this patch, you could do that much sequence breaking and much more by using the "strafe key + mouse movement" high speed glitch, but with that one it's obvious you're not supposed to go THAT fast, while when using the real strafing patch, the speed difference isn't that obvious and one who isn't aware may sequence break without realizing it.
I still love the game but it means that if we ever get a sourceport, similar real strafing will be implemented and people will be sequence breaking without even knowing they're not supposed to "real strafe".
Same for anyone playing the game for the first time using that patch.
So it would be nice if someone could fix the speed boost given by the strafe+forward/backward in that patch.... So that we can enjoy real strafing without worrying about sequence breaking.
This whole thing had me wondering... the fact that originally you can only strafe in straight lines doesn't seem natural, after all previous FPS games had much more free strafing. What if the devs realized only too late that strafe+forward can lead to a lot of sequence breaking and decided to block strafing to straight lines as a "fix" ? Does that sound likely?
Also does anyone have the list of level names?
Edit : here it is thanks to Lunick
Quote
Lev1: Abu Simbel
Lev2: Dendur
Lev3: Kalabsh
Lev4: El Subua
Lev5: El Derr
Lev6: Abu Ghurab
Lev7: Philae
Lev8: El Kab
Lev9: Aswan
Lev10: [Nameless, Set boss arena]
Lev11: Qubbet el Kawa
Lev12: Abydos
Lev13: Edufu
Lev14: West Bank
Lev15: Luxor
Lev16: Karnak
Lev17: Saqqara
Lev18: Mitrrahn
Lev19: [Nameless, Kilmaatikhan boss arena]
Lev20: [Nameless, Alien Mothership]
Lev2: Dendur
Lev3: Kalabsh
Lev4: El Subua
Lev5: El Derr
Lev6: Abu Ghurab
Lev7: Philae
Lev8: El Kab
Lev9: Aswan
Lev10: [Nameless, Set boss arena]
Lev11: Qubbet el Kawa
Lev12: Abydos
Lev13: Edufu
Lev14: West Bank
Lev15: Luxor
Lev16: Karnak
Lev17: Saqqara
Lev18: Mitrrahn
Lev19: [Nameless, Kilmaatikhan boss arena]
Lev20: [Nameless, Alien Mothership]
This post has been edited by MetHy: 22 May 2016 - 01:03 AM
#94 Posted 22 May 2016 - 06:05 AM
MetHy, on 22 May 2016 - 12:48 AM, said:
This whole thing had me wondering... the fact that originally you can only strafe in straight lines doesn't seem natural, after all previous FPS games had much more free strafing. What if the devs realized only too late that strafe+forward can lead to a lot of sequence breaking and decided to block strafing to straight lines as a "fix" ? Does that sound likely?
I'd say that's a valid hypothesis, although of course to know for sure we'd need to ask a developer or at least check the source code. The way strafing is implemented in the game indeed feels quite unnatural compared to other titles from the same period.
For an example that seems similar to me, I remember reading how Blizzard limited the number of units that can be selected in Warcraft: Orcs & Humans to four because the AI was too weak to handle large attack groups of the player's forces. Initially it was supposed to be possible to select an unlimited number of units simultaneously.
- Ancient Blood God
-
#95 Posted 22 May 2016 - 07:16 AM
Talking about the levels in Exhumed, I was looking into them to see how accurately they are to their real-life counterparts and here's the list I've compiled.
Here's a full map I made of the Nile across Egypt with the locations mentioned in the game marked. For comparison, here's the full in-game map with titles. Some of the areas seem to have a varying degree of accuracy, but the placement of some locations are completely wrong (like El Kab). Here's a small comparison image of a few areas:
Here's a full map I made of the Nile across Egypt with the locations mentioned in the game marked. For comparison, here's the full in-game map with titles. Some of the areas seem to have a varying degree of accuracy, but the placement of some locations are completely wrong (like El Kab). Here's a small comparison image of a few areas:
#96 Posted 22 May 2016 - 07:22 AM
MrFlibble, on 22 May 2016 - 06:05 AM, said:
I'd say that's a valid hypothesis, although of course to know for sure we'd need to ask a developer or at least check the source code. The way strafing is implemented in the game indeed feels quite unnatural compared to other titles from the same period.
For an example that seems similar to me, I remember reading how Blizzard limited the number of units that can be selected in Warcraft: Orcs & Humans to four because the AI was too weak to handle large attack groups of the player's forces. Initially it was supposed to be possible to select an unlimited number of units simultaneously.
For an example that seems similar to me, I remember reading how Blizzard limited the number of units that can be selected in Warcraft: Orcs & Humans to four because the AI was too weak to handle large attack groups of the player's forces. Initially it was supposed to be possible to select an unlimited number of units simultaneously.
Yes after all, I don't know if it means much but, Tekwar has normal strafing.
#98 Posted 22 May 2016 - 09:43 AM
Daedolon, impressive work on the map comparisons! Also it seems that the developers were really into Ancient Egypt if they apparently took effort to create a game world that is actually based on the geography of Egypt.
Is the level marked with hieroglyphics a secret level? Or the first boss battle?
Is the level marked with hieroglyphics a secret level? Or the first boss battle?
#99 Posted 22 May 2016 - 09:45 AM
There is no secret level, it's Lev10, the boss map for Set. Lev19 and 20 also use those alien symbols.
- Ancient Blood God
-
#100 Posted 22 May 2016 - 10:07 AM
From what I can gather, levels 10 and 19 use actual hieroglyhs, but map 20 uses the "Kilmaat language".
#101 Posted 22 May 2016 - 05:30 PM
Drek, on 22 May 2016 - 07:31 AM, said:
DOOM 64 actually integrated this into the design of the game. A number of secrets require straferunning at a 45 degree angle to reach, such as the entrance to the first secret level where you have to do this across pillars.
#102 Posted 22 May 2016 - 11:48 PM
I was wondernig if some people here know more about Return Of The Gods. According to the beta screenshots MrFibble found, not only a lot was already made when Lobotomy acquired the game, but they kept a lot of what Apogee did pretty much as is.
Perhaps all my favourite levels were actually not done by Lobotomy? It would also explain why we got virtually two different Exhumed games, one for PC, one for console. Maybe they only tied the loose ends of the PC version, while concentrating on using the assets as a base for the console games of their making. I also assume they were more interested in working on their own in house engine than on Build.
Does the current 3DRealms own those betas or does anyone know more about that?
I didn't even pay attention to that, my brain just assumed all the unreadable stuff were the same.
Perhaps all my favourite levels were actually not done by Lobotomy? It would also explain why we got virtually two different Exhumed games, one for PC, one for console. Maybe they only tied the loose ends of the PC version, while concentrating on using the assets as a base for the console games of their making. I also assume they were more interested in working on their own in house engine than on Build.
Does the current 3DRealms own those betas or does anyone know more about that?
Daedolon, on 22 May 2016 - 10:07 AM, said:
From what I can gather, levels 10 and 19 use actual hieroglyhs, but map 20 uses the "Kilmaat language".
I didn't even pay attention to that, my brain just assumed all the unreadable stuff were the same.
This post has been edited by MetHy: 23 May 2016 - 12:26 AM
- Ancient Blood God
-
#103 Posted 23 May 2016 - 12:59 AM
I thought Lobotomy worked really hard to make the game. I know it's mostly based on the documentary about the console versions, but couldn't they just have retained the original name for those screenshots as well, and later on change the name?
#104 Posted 23 May 2016 - 01:01 AM
I remember seeing mention of "game by Apogee" near some of those screenshots in a magazine.
This post has been edited by MetHy: 23 May 2016 - 01:02 AM
#105 Posted 24 May 2016 - 11:28 AM
MetHy, on 23 May 2016 - 01:01 AM, said:
I remember seeing mention of "game by Apogee" near some of those screenshots in a magazine.
You probably mean these:
These were included with the Mystic Towers preview slideshow released on July 1, 1994.
There might be more shots from that stage of development. Remember this scan? The Anubis Zombie is the same as on the shots above. Also it appears that the sprites are pre-rendered and not digitized as in the final version.
This post has been edited by MrFlibble: 24 May 2016 - 11:29 AM
- Ancient Blood God
-
#106 Posted 24 May 2016 - 12:25 PM
Those two screens kind of make sense, all of the other enemies in the game look very coherent, except for Selkis, which looks completely out of place -- and very similar to that early screenshot.
#107 Posted 25 May 2016 - 12:08 AM
MrFlibble, on 24 May 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:
You probably mean these:
No, I'm sure I saw some of those screenshots you posted earlier, that looked very close to the final game, with the name Apogee.
Edit :
Here, it says Apogee Software in big red, those 2 screenshots below are part of those you posted. The one of the left is a recognizable place from the final game, it's in Lev2 or Lev3 IIRC (same place as the 2nd screenshot you posted earlier).
I could translate the text later when I'm not lazy.
Edit 2, BTW here is one more screenshot that goes along side those 8 you posted earlier. Notice the earlier version of the wasp, still present in the final game's art.
aaaaand that other set of 2 earlier sreenshots slideshow you just posted also come with this .txt file, which ends this whole discussion.
Quote
uins - Return of the Gods Slideshow.
These two slides where found in apogee's
1mt-pix.zip MYSTIC TOWERS SLIDE SHOW PREVIEW.
They where numbered as 9 and 10 and dated 7/1/94
These slides where captured before the RUINS project was transferred to another publisher... (P.I.E.)
Nov 8 1995 (3DR)
Ruins: Return of the Gods Cancelled
Ruins, a 3D game being developed by Lobotomy Software that was originally scheduled as a 3D Realms Entertainment release, will no longer be published by 3D Realms.
Lobotomy and 3D Realms mutually agreed to separate from each other and allow Ruins, now renamed as PowerSlave, to be released by another publisher. (P.I.E.)
These two slides where found in apogee's
1mt-pix.zip MYSTIC TOWERS SLIDE SHOW PREVIEW.
They where numbered as 9 and 10 and dated 7/1/94
These slides where captured before the RUINS project was transferred to another publisher... (P.I.E.)
Nov 8 1995 (3DR)
Ruins: Return of the Gods Cancelled
Ruins, a 3D game being developed by Lobotomy Software that was originally scheduled as a 3D Realms Entertainment release, will no longer be published by 3D Realms.
Lobotomy and 3D Realms mutually agreed to separate from each other and allow Ruins, now renamed as PowerSlave, to be released by another publisher. (P.I.E.)
In other words I was wrong all along. I assumed that the game was being developed in house by 3DRealms, and THEN given to Lobotomy. According to this txt, Lobotomy was working on it since the very beginning, it's just that Apogee/3DRealms used to be their publisher.... It's just that those magazines don't make the difference between publishers and devs which mislead me, also I guess it would spring more interest if it was said to be an Apogee game than a game by some obscure dev nobody had heard of yet.
This post has been edited by MetHy: 25 May 2016 - 12:26 AM
#108 Posted 25 May 2016 - 01:47 AM
They should have kept the original name I think instead of using the Iron Maiden album name which ended up having to be changed elsewhere anyway. "Return of the Gods" makes sense as that actually does happen with the game.
#109 Posted 25 May 2016 - 09:26 AM
Earlier I mentioned the sequence breaking possibilities allowed with straferunning using the strafing patch.
Here is an example, this is the very start of Lev8. First jump is without diagonal straferunning.
https://youtu.be/cSl5alRtV8U
Of course, in this case the player would realize he's not supposed to reach the ending from the very start; but in many cases it's not that obvious. The problem is that level design is HEAVILY based around being able to see a higher/further place, and only being able to actually reach that place later on, and those designs were often based on the regular jump limit.
As a result I've found sequence breaking possibilities with the strafing patch in the majority of maps, even though at first I didn't even realize the straferunning gave a speedboost. In many cases, for someone who doesn't know the game well enough, one may even think he's supposed to pull the jumps he just pulled, and won't realize he just "sequence broke" the game, since like I said level design is heavily based on teasing (quite often you're originally only a inch away from being able to jump to a place that you'll reach only much later on).
This is quite a big deal if you ask me and people who play the game using that patch should be aware of it. Or someone should patch the patch
, although it doesn't sound that easy to fix the diagonal straferunning speed boost...
Anyway - I've been playing Exhumed all along, last version of the game, and I was just hinted towards Powerslave. Does anyone know if it's possible to change visibility setting in PS and if so how? In Exhumed, you just press F11... It's quite a big deal for the game, because unlike in DN3D, the visibility setting makes a huge difference (in Duke it would be like press alt -/+ in m32) and the Powerslave default is so dark you don't see the entirety of huge areas.
Also in PS setting 640*480 in setup.exe doesn't seem to work. Only works by launching the game using PS /h
Edit : holy shit, the last level of the game is completely different in PS. There is no timer clock, no energy pillars to destroy... meaning that PS probably doesn't even have a bad ending. The ending might even be completely different too.
Here is an example, this is the very start of Lev8. First jump is without diagonal straferunning.
https://youtu.be/cSl5alRtV8U
Of course, in this case the player would realize he's not supposed to reach the ending from the very start; but in many cases it's not that obvious. The problem is that level design is HEAVILY based around being able to see a higher/further place, and only being able to actually reach that place later on, and those designs were often based on the regular jump limit.
As a result I've found sequence breaking possibilities with the strafing patch in the majority of maps, even though at first I didn't even realize the straferunning gave a speedboost. In many cases, for someone who doesn't know the game well enough, one may even think he's supposed to pull the jumps he just pulled, and won't realize he just "sequence broke" the game, since like I said level design is heavily based on teasing (quite often you're originally only a inch away from being able to jump to a place that you'll reach only much later on).
This is quite a big deal if you ask me and people who play the game using that patch should be aware of it. Or someone should patch the patch
, although it doesn't sound that easy to fix the diagonal straferunning speed boost...Anyway - I've been playing Exhumed all along, last version of the game, and I was just hinted towards Powerslave. Does anyone know if it's possible to change visibility setting in PS and if so how? In Exhumed, you just press F11... It's quite a big deal for the game, because unlike in DN3D, the visibility setting makes a huge difference (in Duke it would be like press alt -/+ in m32) and the Powerslave default is so dark you don't see the entirety of huge areas.
Also in PS setting 640*480 in setup.exe doesn't seem to work. Only works by launching the game using PS /h
Edit : holy shit, the last level of the game is completely different in PS. There is no timer clock, no energy pillars to destroy... meaning that PS probably doesn't even have a bad ending. The ending might even be completely different too.
This post has been edited by MetHy: 25 May 2016 - 09:46 AM
#110 Posted 25 May 2016 - 12:01 PM
MetHy, on 25 May 2016 - 12:08 AM, said:
Wonderful, and I thought Brutal Doom was actually being original
Do you know the date on that screenshot?MetHy, on 25 May 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:
This is quite a big deal if you ask me and people who play the game using that patch should be aware of it. Or someone should patch the patch , although it doesn't sound that easy to fix the diagonal straferunning speed boost...
, although it doesn't sound that easy to fix the diagonal straferunning speed boost...Actually the PC version needs a good FAQ. Or generally, a FAQ. IIRC the only (at least, widely available) FAQ for the game mistakenly refers to the PlayStation version as the PC version, and only covers the DOS beta/demo versions (confusing the reader in the process by outlining differences from the PS version as differences from the full game).
Would be nice if you could write a proper one.
MetHy, on 25 May 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:
Edit : holy shit, the last level of the game is completely different in PS. There is no timer clock, no energy pillars to destroy... meaning that PS probably doesn't even have a bad ending. The ending might even be completely different too.
Wow, this is the first time I'm hearing this. I think CTPAX-CHEATER doesn't mention this fact on his page. His comparison of STUFF.DAT was only limited to the extra VOC files added, apparently.
#111 Posted 25 May 2016 - 12:09 PM
I've spotted quite a lot of other differences in the level design of lev20, and also differences in the game itself. For instance when you take out the Cobra stuff, instead of making a snake sound, it makes the Bastet sound. Elevators make a hightech sound too (not sure if it's just in lev20 but probably not since they use the same lotag as regular elevators).
Also I could be wrong but it felt like enemies dealt more damage. Could just be me sucking for I haven't used the controls patch for PS.
However my assumption about the endings were wrong, as the bad ending triggered during my playthrough of lev20. Which is weird since there is no visible timer clock, no objective given, and afaik there is no mission instruction either (there is a video when you start lev20 in Exhumed explaning the mission, and I saw nothing in PS. I went directly to lev20 though but in Exhumed that does trigger the video). Also that bad ending seemed to have triggered very quickly, the time limit may be shorter than in Exhumed.
Generally speaking, the differences are interesting, but I recommend to anyone to forget about Powerslave and just play Exhumed instead. Everything that I witnessed different in PS was worse, except maybe that elevator sound which may be suitable in some rare situations.
Date on the screenshot is 08/06/1995.
Also I could be wrong but it felt like enemies dealt more damage. Could just be me sucking for I haven't used the controls patch for PS.
However my assumption about the endings were wrong, as the bad ending triggered during my playthrough of lev20. Which is weird since there is no visible timer clock, no objective given, and afaik there is no mission instruction either (there is a video when you start lev20 in Exhumed explaning the mission, and I saw nothing in PS. I went directly to lev20 though but in Exhumed that does trigger the video). Also that bad ending seemed to have triggered very quickly, the time limit may be shorter than in Exhumed.
Generally speaking, the differences are interesting, but I recommend to anyone to forget about Powerslave and just play Exhumed instead. Everything that I witnessed different in PS was worse, except maybe that elevator sound which may be suitable in some rare situations.
Date on the screenshot is 08/06/1995.
This post has been edited by MetHy: 25 May 2016 - 12:10 PM
#113 Posted 25 May 2016 - 04:34 PM
Why didn't they bother to patch PS with the changes made for Exhumed? Just when I thought the different ports of the game were different, apparently even on the PC the different region releases are different.
#114 Posted 25 May 2016 - 10:50 PM
I hope the version I found isn't some kind of beta, or a bad rip, or something. I need to find another Powerslave that isn't a rip, the one I found doesn't even come with the cd iso (though using the Exhumed cd with that PS will play the musics).
The video Lunick posted mentions that this bad version of Lev20 is the one you get if you download it "illegaly", implying that the "legal" Powerslave has a regular Lev20, but he could be wrong and could be comparing his CD version of Exhumed with this rip of Powerslave.
Edit : what the hell? That ripped version I have also comes with a "PS95.exe". I tried running it but after a small window to select resolution, it crashes (tried in compatibility mode).
I have another ripped Powerslave but that one doesn't come with PS95.exe
Edit 2: Okay, I have checked another version of Powerslave and it has proper gamma correction and the proper Lev20. That other version I was talking about all along is a beta version. Fucking shovelware sites sharing that as a playable release. So Powerslave doesn't suck after all. Now I look stupid for being hinted towards that version, but at least we've found some interesting differences between the beta and final releases.
The video Lunick posted mentions that this bad version of Lev20 is the one you get if you download it "illegaly", implying that the "legal" Powerslave has a regular Lev20, but he could be wrong and could be comparing his CD version of Exhumed with this rip of Powerslave.
Edit : what the hell? That ripped version I have also comes with a "PS95.exe". I tried running it but after a small window to select resolution, it crashes (tried in compatibility mode).
I have another ripped Powerslave but that one doesn't come with PS95.exe
Edit 2: Okay, I have checked another version of Powerslave and it has proper gamma correction and the proper Lev20. That other version I was talking about all along is a beta version. Fucking shovelware sites sharing that as a playable release. So Powerslave doesn't suck after all. Now I look stupid for being hinted towards that version, but at least we've found some interesting differences between the beta and final releases.
This post has been edited by MetHy: 25 May 2016 - 11:50 PM
#115 Posted 26 May 2016 - 12:11 AM
Here's what the Windows 95 version of the game looks like when you run it in 640x400 mode...
#116 Posted 26 May 2016 - 02:55 AM
I can almost hear the fastway.mid from seeing htat. come to think of it and the engine's age, the fps cap seems justified
#117 Posted 26 May 2016 - 04:17 AM
LameDuke was the only Build-related release that had Going Down The Fast Way as placeholder music taken from their other project Rise of The Triad as far as I know.
This post has been edited by deuxsonic: 26 May 2016 - 04:45 AM
#119 Posted 28 May 2016 - 03:47 AM
MetHy, on 25 May 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:
I've spotted quite a lot of other differences in the level design of lev20, and also differences in the game itself. For instance when you take out the Cobra stuff, instead of making a snake sound, it makes the Bastet sound. Elevators make a hightech sound too (not sure if it's just in lev20 but probably not since they use the same lotag as regular elevators).
Interestingly, the high-tech sound for elevators is also in the four-level demo which was published on the PC Gamer 2.13 cover CD. The executable in that one is dated Aug 22, 1996. Perhaps your beta version comes from the same time?
This post has been edited by MrFlibble: 28 May 2016 - 03:47 AM
#120 Posted 28 May 2016 - 04:17 AM
MrFlibble, on 28 May 2016 - 03:47 AM, said:
Interestingly, the high-tech sound for elevators is also in the four-level demo which was published on the PC Gamer 2.13 cover CD. The executable in that one is dated Aug 22, 1996. Perhaps your beta version comes from the same time?
The "beta" version is dated "(Sep 24 1996 23:10:30) "
