DNF E3 2001 Trailer Redone in Duke3D

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DNF E3 2001 Trailer Redone in Duke3D

Spirrwell

tile 1018

#151 Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:44 AM

I'm curious though, couldn't they have made a lot of money by making a simple iOS game and selling it for a few bucks or less? A bunch of people would easily buy simple low cost games. Or is that just a "selling your soul" level that people don't want to stoop to? I mean it's not like those games cost much to make for them. Selling small low cost games in masses is probably one of the easiest ways to make money nowadays. Unless I'm missing something...

Kathy

#152 Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:00 AM

Wouldn't there only remain small games by that logic?

Devil Master

#153 Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:27 AM

Cathy, on 09 April 2013 - 05:50 AM, said:

I would have preferred if DNF was never released and remained legendary.

I would've most certainly not. A bad truth is preferrable to a beautiful lie, simply because it's the truth. Remember the Litany of Gendlin:

What is true is already so.
Owning up to it doesn't make it worse.
Not being open about it doesn't make it go away.
And because it's true, it is what is there to be interacted with.
Anything untrue isn't there to be lived.
People can stand what is true,
for they are already enduring it.
- Eugene Gendlin

PokeThePower

#154 Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:54 AM

Devil Master, on 09 April 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

I would've most certainly not. A bad truth is preferrable to a beautiful lie, simply because it's the truth.

We don't have the truth. We have a clumsy 2011 game that lost its soul. It's part of the truth, but not the truth.

That's partly why I'm excited about the mod in this thread... not because I expect it to be accurate representation of the "original truth" during the mythological days of development... but because of the potential for capturing some of that original heart and soul.

EDIT: Example "truth".

This post has been edited by Wieder: 09 April 2013 - 09:21 AM

Spirrwell

tile 1018

#155 Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:00 AM

Cathy, on 09 April 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

Wouldn't there only remain small games by that logic?

I wouldn't think so. The more profit they earn, the more they could save and put into a bigger budget game. I think the problem with 3DRealms is that because of their success, they built an ego. I think that they thought anything they touch would turn to gold and all they focused on was their big ideas. It's much easier to bust out a bunch of smaller games and make more continuous profit than it is to make a really big game to profit off of. That's at least how I see it.

This post has been edited by Spirrwell: 09 April 2013 - 09:00 AM

Devil Master

#156 Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:42 AM

Wieder, you're an ex 3DRealms employee. Why do you use generic, subjective and non-technical terms like "heart" and "soul" that in the end can mean anything? In the end, the "heart" and "soul" you talk about are nothing but George's lies that we were spoonfed with a trailer 50% of which was fake, a deception you had no choice but to be part of because the alternative would have been to lose your job. This is why the DNF we got is the truth: the ultimate evidence that George has been an incompetent project director, incapable of letting the development team cultivate the good ideas they came up with in the name of a horrible mockery of perfectionism.

This post has been edited by Devil Master: 09 April 2013 - 09:46 AM

OpenMaw

Judge Mental

#157 Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:15 AM

Devil Master, on 09 April 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

In the end, the "heart" and "soul" you talk about are nothing but George's lies that we were spoonfed with a trailer 50% of which was fake, a deception you had no choice but to be part of because the alternative would have been to lose your job.

Em... Where did you get that idea? The 2001 trailer was composed entirely of in-game stuff.

*sniff* wait... Why do I smell "The Chair Story" creeping into this thread all the sudden?

Oh... Oh sh- *CRACK*

Devil Master

#158 Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:20 AM

Commando Nukem, on 09 April 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

Em... Where did you get that idea? The 2001 trailer was composed entirely of in-game stuff.

*COUGH*
http://forums.duke4....dpost__p__92961

This post has been edited by Devil Master: 09 April 2013 - 10:25 AM

PokeThePower

#159 Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:25 AM

Devil Master, on 09 April 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

Wieder, you're an ex 3DRealms employee. Why do you use generic, subjective and non-technical terms like "heart" and "soul" that in the end can mean anything?

Because those are the truest terms to describe where the "magic" that did manage to get created came from.

Devil Master, on 09 April 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

You are welcome to your opinion based on limited information of course. If Gearbox ever gets the desire to release the hours of video footage a couple of us took around 2004 it would... enhance... your capacity to adapt your opinion.

Some of it would reaffirm your opinions, some of it would shatter them.

The alternative was working somewhere else... there was no time where I felt trapped or had no choice and was never concerned about losing my job. We never described features that didn't already work. The truth was they were real. An additional part of the truth was the project never came together into a whole package due to management problems... of course.

An additional part of the truth is virtually nothing of what happened leading up to the 2006 "exodus" is out there for you to inform your opinion.

After 2006, the "heart and soul" of the game changed. The game I played is not the game I worked on, even if it bears some genetic relationship.

Devil Master, on 09 April 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

This is why the DNF we got is the truth: the ultimate evidence that George has been an incompetent project director, incapable of letting the development team cultivate the good ideas they came up with in the name of a horrible mockery of perfectionism.

Look... George knows full well how I feel about him (pro and con)... and had to deal with it in ways that virtually all of his other "haters" never had the guts or opportunity to do.

However I also know much much more what was going on day in and day out and as much as the buck does stop at the project manager and mismanagement can't be denied as ultimately being the killer of it... there is a "heart and soul" that you are oblivious to in your opinion formation.

I use those words because they are true. If I'm lying, it will bite me in the ass.

You are enjoying the liberty of only being able to speculate.

This post has been edited by Wieder: 09 April 2013 - 10:33 AM

PokeThePower

#160 Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:47 AM

Commando Nukem, on 09 April 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

*sniff* wait... Why do I smell "The Chair Story" creeping into this thread all the sudden?

Nah... I only stand to lose if I were to intentionally pass off and maintain that sort of deception as "true" regarding whatever little bit of "pulling back the curtain" I'm able to do.

I gain nothing by saying any of the stuff I say around here except the pleasure of sharing what little I can with people I share a common interest with.

I lose a great deal if I'm being deceptive and get caught. And there are people here who would have no problem calling me out on it if I were to be deceptive.

This post has been edited by Wieder: 09 April 2013 - 10:54 AM

OpenMaw

Judge Mental

#161 Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:54 AM

Devil Master, on 09 April 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

*COUGH*
http://forums.duke4....dpost__p__92961

I think you need to better understand the nature of those sequences that are deemed "fake." Mock ups and fake in those instances do not mean they are not feasible, or not intended to be as such. It means that for the sake of the trailer they were rigged up. That's most definately not something exclusive to DNF, and it does not mean they did not exist in some form within the game at that time.

Wieder, on 09 April 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

Nah... I only stand to lose if I were to intentionally pass off that sort of deception as "true" regarding whatever little bit of "pulling back the curtain" I'm able to do.

I gain nothing by saying any of the stuff I say around here except the pleasure of sharing what little I can with people I share a common interest with.

I lose a great deal if I'm being deceptive and get caught. And there are people here who would have no problem calling me out on it if I were to be deceptive.

Oh, I know. I was merely being exaggeratory and facetious. That's what I took Devil Master's remarks before to be implying. That you were somehow manipulated or forced into a scenario. I know you are not a deceptive guy.

N64

#162 Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:55 AM

Awesome! I can't wait! coming Apr 15, 2013!

PokeThePower

#163 Posted 09 April 2013 - 11:00 AM

Commando Nukem, on 09 April 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Correct... for example the "ohhh so very fake" comment regarding Gus and the stripper. That was in the actual Slick Willy. The stage and lights moving around and the girl were real and the level was playable start to finish at one time... (though of course not shipping quality polished or final art). The specific arrangement of Gus, etc and the line of dialog however... were just done for the video... thus "fake".

They communicated the "heart and soul" that the whole game had at the time in a sound bite. Kind of like a movie trailer editing scenes out of order from how they appear in the movie to get a "point" across.

Commando Nukem, on 09 April 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Ahh haha... gotcha.

Danke.

This post has been edited by Wieder: 09 April 2013 - 11:01 AM

Devil Master

#164 Posted 09 April 2013 - 11:53 AM

Wieder, on 09 April 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

If Gearbox ever gets the desire to release the hours of video footage a couple of us took around 2004 it would... enhance... your capacity to adapt your opinion.

Some of it would reaffirm your opinions, some of it would shatter them.

I really wish I could see that. Whenever I see the proof that my current beliefs were wrong, I have no problem in reassessing them.

Wieder, on 09 April 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

An additional part of the truth is virtually nothing of what happened leading up to the 2006 "exodus" is out there for you to inform your opinion.

After 2006, the "heart and soul" of the game changed. The game I played is not the game I worked on, even if it bears some genetic relationship.

Again, I can only base my opinion of what *is* out there. As of now, what's out there is that in 2006, George got restart-happy again and this led to the exodus. But of course, I would be glad to reassess my opinion based on new information.

Commando Nukem, on 09 April 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

Rest assured that I already know that, and that's what I meant when I wrote that 50% of it was fake.

This post has been edited by Devil Master: 09 April 2013 - 11:56 AM

OpenMaw

Judge Mental

#165 Posted 09 April 2013 - 11:58 AM

Devil Master, on 09 April 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

Rest assured that I already know that, and that's what I meant when I wrote that 50% of it was fake.

That's kinda my point though. They weren't really fake in the sense that word implies here.

Kathy

#166 Posted 09 April 2013 - 12:38 PM

Wieder, on 09 April 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

We don't have the truth. We have a clumsy 2011 game that lost its soul. It's part of the truth, but not the truth.

Quote

If Gearbox ever gets the desire to release the hours of video footage a couple of us took around 2004 it would... enhance... your capacity to adapt your opinion.

Quote

After 2006, the "heart and soul" of the game changed.

That is rather sad.

PokeThePower

#167 Posted 09 April 2013 - 12:40 PM

Devil Master, on 09 April 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

I really wish I could see that. Whenever I see the proof that my current beliefs were wrong, I have no problem in reassessing them.

There is a difference between failing to manage versus lying. You asserted that you were being *lied* to. As in being told things existed that didn't.

I might make 30 versions of a level and tell you about each one yet never release it. That doesn't make me a liar... that makes me a poor organizer.

Do you see my issue with your original statements? I am choosing my words carefully.

Devil Master, on 09 April 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

Rest assured that I already know that, and that's what I meant when I wrote that 50% of it was fake.

Then you are being disingenuous or careless in your word choices due to your negative attitude regarding the subject matter.

There is a difference between a person who uses functional technology to demonstrate what it does... versus someone who creates an illusion of functional technology to convince you it works in the hopes you will give them money so they can later make it work.

I ceased working for 3DR because we were failing to pull it together... not because I worked for a liar. I spend no time defending 3DR (or myself) on the management issues (of which I was a part of) that led to the delays, etc.

This post has been edited by Wieder: 09 April 2013 - 12:48 PM

Richard Shead

"Dick Nasty"

#168 Posted 09 April 2013 - 01:30 PM

Thanks for all of this insight, Charlie. You seem to have a very grounded and reality-based grasp on both the positive and negative aspects of the saga surrounding 3DR's 4th Duke-related title. You were(and are) obviously an insider, but I can't really imagine anyone else in a similar position being as mature and forthcoming in handling the game's "aftermath", while respecting the ex-developers, employees and fans alike. I know you took on both roles at different times, so it's naturally easier for you to sympathize with both parties....but you were under no obligation to register an account here and become a participant in this community of (mostly) loyal Dukesters. Especially with the potential risk of exposing yourself to the hostility of disgruntled consumers. I think you deserve way more credit than you are currently getting for your patience and devotion towards the Duke Nukem fanbase.

Unless a tell-all book is published detailing every single step of DNF's development process (okay, it might require several installments), I will never arrogantly attempt to gauge the competency of 3DR as a game studio nor will I pass judgments on the quality of George Broussard's character as a team leader or human being. As someone who has been unfairly treated in the past, I know people and situations almost always contain more than what initially meets the eye. Those who are hell-bent on promoting the ridiculous notion that George and friends intentionally tried to screw us out of a good product need to step back and realize their irrationality. Critical mistakes were made, yes, but I don't doubt for a second that over the entire duration of 14 years 3DR wanted to provide anything but the best experience they possibly could and that not once did they ever make any decision that they consciously knew would lead to the contrary.

This post has been edited by Duke Rocks: 09 April 2013 - 01:31 PM

Mr. Tibbs

#169 Posted 09 April 2013 - 02:06 PM

Wieder, on 09 April 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

Man, well put!

The thing that really annoys me about DNF is that we only know the least interesting part of the story. We know about a 10th of the story. After years of silence we had an overload of Gearbox side of DNF's tale. I never want to hear Randy Pitchford's breakdown analogy ever again.

I really hope one day some of that early stuff might resurface. Whether it's screenshots, video, a build, or the best GDC post-mortem presentation ever, I just would love know what really happened. An in-depth look would surely be one of the best gaming stories out there but there's so such ground to cover! I hope one day, someone can corral everyone involved and tell the tale of Duke.

Mblackwell

Evil Overlord

#170 Posted 09 April 2013 - 03:14 PM

I think the point Weider is trying to get across is that at no point did anyone LIE. There was an actual game in production with all of the actually stated features, goals, and graphics.

The problem was simply management constantly changing their minds and upending the tea table and not giving enough direction to bring all of the various elements together. When Gearbox got all of the game assets I'm sure they looked at most of the content and threw out anything they couldn't make into a finished product in a short amount of time, and added a few modernisms like achievements. For them it was simply done for the sake of business, publicity and a quick buck, and future revenue from leveraging the IP.

Mr. Tibbs

#171 Posted 09 April 2013 - 03:43 PM

Mblackwell, on 09 April 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

I think the point Weider is trying to get across is that at no point did anyone LIE. There was an actual game in production with all of the actually stated features, goals, and graphics.

Yeah, but I never felt that 3d Realms lied and I never doubted that the game was in production. The only thing I ever wanted from DNF was to see what they were working on throughout the years and hear about the project from the people who worked on it.

It sucks that there's years of work out there that we might never get to see.

This post has been edited by Mr. Tibbs: 09 April 2013 - 03:44 PM

Gambini

#172 Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:27 PM

Mr. Tibbs, on 09 April 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

It sucks that there's years of work out there that we might never get to see.

I´d say we will never get to see.

There´s no chance that, now that GBX owns the rights, they´d put attention on an old and unfinished build of an already released game just because a bunch of die-hard fans like us want it so badly. They only go for the bigger audience: Health regen, checkpoints, ammo crates in every corner, brainless gaming.

Micky C

Honored Donor

#173 Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:32 PM

Gambini, on 09 April 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

Surely they must realize that if they go down that route, Duke games would offer absolutely nothing that isn't already in other games that are being released these days. The only way to make Duke stick out from the crowd is going back to its roots; either what made Duke 3D so great, or what made the 1998 and 2001 trailers look so good.

Jimmy

Let's go Brandon!

#174 Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:38 PM

Implying they give a shit about sticking out. We're talking about the developers of Brothers In Arms here.

Mr. Tibbs

#175 Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:54 PM

Gambini, on 09 April 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

I´d say we will never get to see.

I know you're right, but I still hold out hope that one day someone might just release it for the hell of it. They probably think it'll cause more problems than it's worth.

I hope the next Duke game will be awesome, but I'm sure, going by other Gearbox releases, it'll be an droll, irony-filled 4-player co-op adventure. I'm sure they'll give Duke a sidekick who'll criticize lame, earnest, oblivious Duke and his old fashioned ways. If they listen to what still resonates with fans after all these years I'm sure they could make a fantastic shooter that stands apart from the crowd. Following DNF's reception, I'm sure they'll go for the easy way out and make him look like a putz for laughs.

On the bright side, I'm stoked to see that your DNF is coming out. I thought it was just a badass trailer! I can't wait to check it out.

This post has been edited by Mr. Tibbs: 09 April 2013 - 05:59 PM

Danukem

Duke Plus Developer

#176 Posted 09 April 2013 - 05:43 PM

Great job with the trailer, guys!

PokeThePower

#177 Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:03 PM

Thank you for the posts understanding what it is I'm trying to communicate without being able to actually take my brain and *show* you what was going on day to day. Wish I could... though then again you might not want to see *everything* I was up to during those years... hahaha.

Duke Rocks, on 09 April 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

I think you deserve way more credit than you are currently getting for your patience and devotion towards the Duke Nukem fanbase.

Nothing to worry about on this at all. You guys/gals have always been a joy to hang out with and interact with and risk getting into trouble with.

And to be honest I'm also glad for Devil Master's comments/thoughts as it gives a good opportunity to elaborate more on things that I can't really do by just randomly writing thoughts. Sometimes those who challenge us are our best friends in disguise.

It does mean a lot to hear the thanks though, as I do get a bit of a pit in my stomach and anxiety every time I skirt that line of revealing information.

Bloodshot

#178 Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:55 PM

Wow, this is making me once again sad that it was scrapped.

If you wrote a book about DNF's development I would happily read every page of it.

Gambini

#179 Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:04 PM

Hell... This is like you´ve been believing in Santa for years and once your parents come and tell you it was all lies. Then, Santa passes by your window with sled...

PokeThePower

#180 Posted 10 April 2013 - 12:06 AM

Bloodshot, on 09 April 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

Wow, this is making me once again sad that it was scrapped.

If you wrote a book about DNF's development I would happily read every page of it.

You just gave me an insane idea.

A book or film wouldn't really do it justice. Never does for any story of course... but more importantly those mediums don't connect the story meaningfully to the people it would appeal to. What does? A game!

I think a genuinely fun and informative (with tongue planted firmly in cheek) game could be made out of what it was like to work at 3DR on Duke.

You play as an employee just going into work and trying to "get something done"