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The "Don't"s of DN3D mapping?  "What NOT to do's"

#1

I want to know what you guys think about things that a mapper should never do when making a usermap for DN3D. For example;


Don't drop the player in a room full of Pigcops or Mini-Battlelords with little to no time to find cover. Don't make inescapable rooms that requires a restart, or have a really dumb/obscure way to get out (The Citadel level from Doom 2, anyone?). Don't prevent backtracking, even worse if there's multiple paths before. If you want to block off access to a previous area, make sure there's a way to get there again later on in the level (John Romero loves to do this).


Actually, just don't use Protozoid Slimers at all.
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User is offline   Micky C 

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#2

I suppose the obvious one would be don't have a switch that opens a door without giving the player an indication of where and which door it is.
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User is offline   underTaker 

#3

I'd also say don't put too many access cards. While it's big element of Duke's gameplay, it isn't really creative. I've had problem with it, and I keep on trying to think of more clever ways of block user progress, like putting a switch somewhere else with a camera (read Micky's post), or require a player to find a weapon to blow something up to access it.
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User is offline   Micky C 

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#4

You can spice things up slightly by giving the player a reason to press certain switches. I.e one of the maps in the AMC TC, you needed to get a keycard from inside a reactor. Only the door to the reactor is sealed due to the radiation inside. So in order to unlock the door you need to lower the control rods to reduce the radiation levels.

You could probably get creative with inventory items and shrinking stuff though, as talked about in that thread Bob Averill started.
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#5

View PostMicky C, on 02 September 2015 - 02:19 AM, said:

I suppose the obvious one would be don't have a switch that opens a door without giving the player an indication of where and which door it is.


^^^ What he said ! Times 1000. I guess an exception might be if it were related to some secret area; those that like exploring will like that, people like me who have a low tolerance and are just there to kick some can ignore it.

Goes without saying (?), any group of switches with more than four switches is generally VERY bad. Indeed, switch groups should in my opinion only be used to slow the player down deliberately e.g. stop them running into a room, flicking a switch and running through the now opened door, thereby avoiding the four commanders I placed in the room. Actually, I do remember a creative use for 8 grouped switches, but then the door had a number and I can do binary - it also helped that they weren't switches as such but rather implemented as push buttons on a horizontal panel that actually moved. I thought that was neat.

Large areas of random flickering lighting is a big NO in my book. If you feel it is important, then at least minimise the difference between light on and light off, or perhaps cycling lighting might work instead. Flickering lights do have there places, but there is no way I'm staying in a room with flickering lights where I have to do anything more than push a pretty obvious switch to progress.

Avoid fiddly small spaces where player movement is very restricted. Way too frustrating.

There doesn't have to be an enemy on the other side of _every_ door !

Another thing that springs to mind is ending a level by walking into a sector without some hint that you've reached the end. At least do something clever, E1L2 being a good example. Thing is, just walking into a sector that looks like the rest of the map and having the map suddenly end always feels like a let down.

Now, not so much a don't, but a "think carefully". Elevators. Specifically elevators with doors top and bottom. If you can make the door opening/closing automatic then do it ! I admit that won't always be an option depending on the game plan, but having got to the top of a long elevator, pressed the action key intending to open the doors but instead activating the elevator again is a damn annoying !

PikaCommando said:

Actually, just don't use Protozoid Slimers at all.


Noooooo ! They're your friends, slurping up (some of) the baddies. If they become too friendly you simply kick them off.

No, actually, just don't use turrets at all (at least not until the player has RPG).

TTFN,
Jon
2

User is offline   Inspector Lagomorf 

  • Glory To Motherland!

#6

Think before putting in an air vent. I've seen those things so many times in mapping, and they're always filled with Protozoid Slimers. It's become almost a mapping cliche by now, probably because they're so simple to make (just use one texture and make a series of long rectangular hallways).

This post has been edited by Spastic Lagomorph: 02 September 2015 - 05:39 AM

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#7

View PostSpastic Lagomorph, on 02 September 2015 - 05:36 AM, said:

Think before putting in an air vent. I've seen those things so many times in mapping, and they're always filled with Protozoid Slimers. It's become almost a mapping cliche by now, probably because they're so simple to make (just use one texture and make a series of long rectangular hallways).


Oh yes, air vents. Why do so many maps not do this right, particularly lighting. Light should pour in from the openings, inside the vent the light should fall off rapidly (alt-minus on the sector) as opposed to just plain dark (unless there is a specific reason e.g. night vision), oh, and align the wall-to-floor/ceiling textures dammit ! Pretty much the only enemy you can put in a vent is the slimer but like so many things it's a case of moderation.

Not every vent needs a slimer (or rats).
Not every door needs baddie directly behind it
Not every dustbin needs to contain something.
Not every fem needs to spawn something.
Not every toilet needs a trooper sat on it.

Oh, and on the subject of dont's, how could I forget don't have too many doors that are purely decoration causing the player to be endlessly pushing doors, particularly if they don't know what a recently pushed switch might have achieved. Police line do not cross or out of order sprites perhaps, or maybe consistency by having locked doors indicated in the same way as a never-opens-ever door ? I'm sure there's lots of creative solutions to this, honestly, one more hotel with a million locked doors and ... and ... argghhhhh!

TTFN,
Jon
0

User is offline   Inspector Lagomorf 

  • Glory To Motherland!

#8

View PostThe Mechanic, on 02 September 2015 - 06:03 AM, said:

Not every dustbin needs to contain something.


That might be a good point. In some of the 3D Realms levels, it became habitual for players to shoot dustbins to see if they contained ammo or medikits (and the devs started punishing for this by putting Slimers in some of them). It makes Duke Nukem look like some crazy gun-wielding hobo going garbage-picking for supplies.
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#9

View PostSpastic Lagomorph, on 02 September 2015 - 07:28 AM, said:

That might be a good point. In some of the 3D Realms levels, it became habitual for players to shoot dustbins to see if they contained ammo or medikits (and the devs started punishing for this by putting Slimers in some of them). It makes Duke Nukem look like some crazy gun-wielding hobo going garbage-picking for supplies.


There is a minor problem with putting enemies in bins as it means unless you habitually kick the bins you might not get that all important 100% kills at the end. Maybe its the quantity of bins, only a few bins in a map then they tend to get kicked, come across a group of a dozen bins then unlikely I can be bothered to kick 'em (though I guess I may chuck a pipe bomb for amusement).

TTFN,
Jon
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#10

Personally my DON'T would be placing enemies in areas that are inaccessible and impossible to hit.

For instance in the RED series in the level "Cursed Night" there are 2 spots where we hear enemies but they're actually hidden inside a "box" behind walls. But that's because I always want to have 100% kills but still it's kind of frustrating hearing enemies but not being able to find them :/


Also it's something I've seen in some maps, I'd say be reasonable with monster sounds for ambient. For instance in RED (it's the only one I have in mind sorry) there are places (Penultimate and ultimate level) where such sounds are used too much in my opinion. Whereas in other maps they're used but way more reasonably such as in a few maps of BDP The Gate or Clear The Coast.
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User is offline   ReaperMan 

#11

No more fucking button puzzles (you know the ones that I'm talking about).
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#12

Personally I don't mind button puzzles unless the number of buttons exceeds 4.
I remember in Imperium there's a level that has a 8 button puzzle and there's absolutely no hints to how you solve it and using the night vision doesn't reveal it, Luck with 8 buttons worked only once for me and I made the mistake of not noting the combination :D

That's why I'd say if someone puts in a button puzzle with more than 4 switches than there absolutely must be a hint somewhere otherwise it's just silly :/
0

User is offline   DavoX 

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#13

Don't abandon.
2

User is offline   zykov eddy 

#14

From Zykov Eddy software
Comes a latest hot release

A really, really wrong map

Includes all your favorite Duke 3D tropes!

WARNING CANNOT BE PLAYED WITHOUT INCLUDED ART FILE PLEASE MAKE SURE TO PLAY WITH NEW CASTOM ART WORK THANK YOU

Enjoy

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Attached File(s)

  • Attached File  wrong.zip (618.57K)
    Number of downloads: 182

11

User is offline   Mark 

#15

That's very wrong....... even the music.
0

User is offline   Micky C 

  • Honored Donor

#16

View Postzykov eddy, on 02 September 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

From Zykov Eddy software
Comes a latest hot release

A really, really wrong map



I saw nothing wrong with it.

In fact, it has a striking resemblance to that revolutionary AMC TC map beta I sent you Posted Image

Spoiler

2

User is offline   Sixty Four 

  • Turok Nukem

#17

Don't do hordes of enemies in random looking spots this is Duke Nukem not serious Sam. The aliens should have a meaning in how they are placed and from all angles they should fit in. Instead of being discombobulated and weird.
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User is offline   NNC 

#18

View Post64Ghost, on 03 September 2015 - 07:37 AM, said:

Don't do hordes of enemies in random looking spots this is Duke Nukem not serious Sam. The aliens should have a meaning in how they are placed and from all angles they should fit in. Instead of being discombobulated and weird.


This. All of this.

The monster placement is something that 99% of the mappers - even the greatest names - couldn't master. Maps should have characters, and character setting enemies. No map, especially not an episodic map need ALL of the Liztoops, Pigcops, Enforcers, Octabrains, Commanders and Battlelord, and at the worst case, this appearing order. Even good maps can look mediocre if it uses every kind of enemy. Use Liztroop+Pigcop+RPV+Shark combo in level 1, then Liztroop+Enforcer+Turret+Battlelord combo in level 2, Enforcer+Sentry Drone+Slimer combo in episode 3 etc etc.

Only a few user levels and episodes does this right quite franky. One great example is Duke Nukem Forever 2013 Mod, where monster placement had been executed very well.
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#19

View Postzykov eddy, on 02 September 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

From Zykov Eddy software
Comes a latest hot release

A really, really wrong map

Includes all your favorite Duke 3D tropes!



Phah! Amatuer :D :D :D

Now, _this_ is pretty much everything I hate (bar enemies placed up high so you can't shoot them, I couldn't be arsed).

TTFN,
Jon

Attached File(s)


2

User is offline   zykov eddy 

#20

Guys, please don't play this person's map. I think he copied something from other people's levels, I'm not sure what but I swear this map contains stolen content. Didn't like most of the texture choices, and the map is too long. I fell asleep while playing his map. It's nothing, it's garbage.

and where the hell are my 20 likes

Also had to cheat on DNkroz because the enemy placement is so poor. At least on my level you don't have to cheat to finish it, 1/10 would not play again

P.S whoops accidently liked your post instead of downvoting it, nevermind I'll get you next time

This post has been edited by zykov eddy: 03 September 2015 - 09:45 AM

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#21

View PostNancsi, on 03 September 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:


Only a few user levels and episodes does this right quite franky. One great example is Duke Nukem Forever 2013 Mod, where monster placement had been executed very well.


That's odd, I thought DNF13 had bad enemy placements. I feel that they are always too close for comfort and there's always not enough ammo. Why do you think it's good? Also, I agree with you regarding the monster placement, but it seems what you are talking about is monster choice, not where to place them in a map.
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User is offline   Telee 

#22

View PostPikaCommando, on 03 September 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

That's odd, I thought DNF13 had bad enemy placements. I feel that they are always too close for comfort and there's always not enough ammo.


That's funny you mention that since I started playing it recently and ran out of ammo at the EDF base in level 2 because I wasted it all killing the friendly soldiers. :D Even before that I had some trouble conserving ammo on the first level though.
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User is offline   NNC 

#23

View PostPikaCommando, on 03 September 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

That's odd, I thought DNF13 had bad enemy placements. I feel that they are always too close for comfort and there's always not enough ammo. Why do you think it's good? Also, I agree with you regarding the monster placement, but it seems what you are talking about is monster choice, not where to place them in a map.


Well, not always good, like putting a random T800 in a map where it doesn't belong was certainly not a good idea, also I hated shooting random enemies in all minecarts in level 4, but generally liked the monster choice. I wrote about the choice and variety, but I agree with you that proper placement is also important. Don't put enemy hordes everywhere, has weapon to hit them, use alternative weapon strategies, like not putting an RPG right before a boss, or not start with a shotgun all the time, also I hate huge respawn hordes that tries to legitimise a massive backtrack (in the original game, I only saw that in E2L3 and E2L8, the former introduced the miniboss, the latter wasn't that big anyway).
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#24

I don't know about you but personally another "Don't" in mapping would be Pig Tanks indoors. It's a freaking tank ! it's not logical to place a tank inside a corridor or a space station, that leaves us with close to no way to dodge unless with play with doors and such but still, Pig Tanks indoors is out of place I'd say.
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User is offline   FistMarine 

#25

edit

This post has been edited by FistMarine: 09 December 2016 - 10:16 AM

0

#26

I almost forgot to mention mandatory take-damage jumps or fall ...

For instance in "Googol-pex facility" or some other maps I forgot where you have to fall in a small shaft in order to get to the rest of the level, you take damage even if you crouch before falling, I don't know about you but I really don't like that, I don't mind jumping sections but if you have to take damage at some point NO :D
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User is offline   Micky C 

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#27

I totally agree. I'm going to to play through all of Duke Nukem 3D Atomic Edition right now. All 4 episodes, all 40 or so levels. But I'm going to stop and quit as soon as there's some kind of fall that causes damage.

Well that was fun while it lasted.

This post has been edited by Micky C: 04 September 2015 - 02:21 AM

6

User is offline   Inspector Lagomorf 

  • Glory To Motherland!

#28

To explain the joke for those not so savvy, Micky C was alluding to the fact that you take mandatory falling damage
Spoiler


This post has been edited by Spastic Lagomorph: 04 September 2015 - 03:13 AM

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#29

I think there are 39 levels if you count the "Faces of Death" level

This post has been edited by thedrawliner: 04 September 2015 - 03:37 AM

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User is offline   DNSKILL5 

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#30

Stop having a boss fight in every usermap. I've seen it many times, a lot of maps end with a fight against the battlelord and it's usually unfitting. Sometimes it can be really cool but a lot of times it feels like mappers add it because they didn't have a clue as to where to put an exit. It also is done so often that it makes it more and more difficult for it to be original.

Also, I've seen a lot of usermaps with NVG/Jet Pack but the map didn't really give them a purpose. All powerups should have purpose if they're going to be added to the map.

This post has been edited by gerolf: 04 September 2015 - 07:53 AM

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