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New DNF level renders: Andrew Wilson (2001-2006)

User is offline   Mr. Tibbs 

#1

http://www.vaporslav...m/#filter=.duke

Quote

2001-06 - ARTIST AND LEVEL DESIGNER 3D REALMS/APOGEE - Duke Nukem Forever Created textures, materials, world models, prop meshes and interactive items. Propelled art production with the creation of level vignettes, working designers to determine art requirements and fundamental themes. Created multiplayer levels with an eye toward distinct assets, themes and hooks. Collaborated in developing a pipe-line for pixel/vertex shaders, normal map generation and dynamic materials. Actively participated in developing systems and toolsets for skeletal animation, material editing, bsp-patch construction, mesh painting and physics simulation. Provided ongoing Quality Assurance for Apogee funded external projects such as Max Payne and Prey.


Adult Book Store
http://www.vaporslave.com/images/Duke/Duke_1-th.jpg

Back Orifice
http://www.vaporslave.com/images/Duke/Strip_1-th.jpg

Strip Club
http://www.vaporslave.com/images/Duke/Strip_2-th.jpg

Area 51
http://www.vaporslave.com/images/Duke/Area_7-th.jpg

Grinder
http://www.vaporslave.com/images/Duke/DukeWayOld_6-th.jpg

Lab Work
http://www.vaporslave.com/images/Duke/Duke_5a-th.jpg

Player Processing
http://www.vaporslave.com/images/Duke/DukeWayOld_5-th.jpg

Slovenly Hotel
http://www.vaporslave.com/images/Duke/DukeWayOld_1-th.jpg

A few more at the link. Remarkable how close they are to the final game.

This post has been edited by Mr. Tibbs: 29 January 2014 - 06:20 PM

8

User is offline   Lunick 

  • Snazzy Ex Tazzy

#2

Oh my :D
0

User is offline   Richard Shead 

  • "Dick Nasty"

#3

Even more here!
2

User is offline   Mr. Tibbs 

#4

http://www.vaporslave.com/images/Duke/DukeWayOld_3.jpg
What could have been...
2

User is offline   Micky C 

  • Honored Donor

#5

It's almost as if many of the textures in the final 2011 version were untouched since 2006... Not to mention the game overall looks a lot less cartoony (thank god), and generally at least as aesthetically pleasing at the released version. What little I can see from the level design looks a lot more interesting.

It's kind of sad really, that 2006 stuff is probably the last of the line of true DNFs before they started cheaping out with crappy decisions like daytime vegas, as well as poorly implementing crappy mechanics from unrelated games.
3

User is offline   Gambini 

#6

George was like let´s be like quake nonono uhhmmm like this one unreal.. too late damn. there: Doom3. doom3. no wait! let´s be like these crappy console games..

I feel sorry by their insecurity. All what they tried to do all those years was looking like the game of the time, they never realized it was always going to be too late, as by the time they´d come with what everybody already seen, another game was going to pop up with new things.

This post has been edited by Gambini: 30 January 2014 - 01:52 AM

5

User is offline   Person of Color 

  • Senior Unpaid Intern at Viceland

#7

Wow. Those look fucking great.
1

User is offline   Commando Nukem 

  • Judge Mental

#8

Looking at the dam and strip club I swear it looks like almost nothing was changed from then to release. Like, a few assets were moved around, some textures might have been given a face lift, some light tweaking, but it honestly looks identical to what was released in 2011.

That really speaks to the pathetic second half of the DNF development. http://forums.duke4.net/public/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif

It's all down to the attitude change. They went from setting standards to trying to set themselves to the current standard.


Still. I'd love to get my hands on some of those earlier just to poke around, and the world that once was.

This post has been edited by Commando Nukem: 30 January 2014 - 10:13 PM

4

User is offline   Sixty Four 

  • Turok Nukem

#9

Those pics look pretty bad ass. Sigh ..just makes me wish there was another Duke coming out now
1

User is offline   Jim Rockford 

  • Banned on Rigel

#10

Somebody once made this analogy on 3D Realms, and I'm paraphrasing;

DNF's development is like 3D Realms was building a ship across from a river. As new and better ships kept passing by, 3D Realms would rebuild or destroy the old one to be up to snuff with whatever new ship passed by.

This constant rebuilding changed the focus from making a good product, to make a product that was "the best of everything ever." However, such a focus and manner of doing things was inherently detrimental, because it was no longer a work of love and careful planning.
1

User is offline   X-Vector 

#11

View PostCommando Nukem, on 30 January 2014 - 03:53 PM, said:

Looking at the dam and strip club I swear it looks like almost nothing was changed from then to release. Like, a few assets were moved around, some textures might have been given a face lift, some light tweaking, but it honestly looks identical to what was released in 2011.


Yeah, these shots confirm that the damage was already done after 3DR had changed to Doom 3 style lighting, this looks about as awful as the final release.
Perhaps sporting a somewhat less goofy tone like Micky C mentioned, but with a complete absence of the colour, life and sparkle that made the old media so thrilling.

http://www.duke4.net/images/screenshots/old/3.jpg

http://www.vaporslave.com/images/Duke/Duke_1.jpg

http://www.duke4.net/images/screenshots/old/4.jpg

http://www.vaporslave.com/images/Duke/Strip_2.jpg

http://www.duke4.net/images/screenshots/old/1.jpg

http://www.vaporslave.com/images/Duke/Strip_1.jpg

What a shame.
2

User is offline   Richard Shead 

  • "Dick Nasty"

#12

It's as though the quality of work peaked at around 2002-2003(perhaps even earlier), and then it all went downhill from there. :D


If the team had nicely wrapped up what we saw in 2001...wow, just wow. The difference between that and what we got would have been like night and day- both figuratively and literally, due to a certain unpopular design choice regarding the Vegas setting.
1

User is offline   Mr. Tibbs 

#13

The shots must be from the 2006 build. While it wasn't as colorful as the 2001 era, DNF still looked quite open. The environment looks so such cooler with physics and destructibility.
DNF 2006 Gameplay

When Brian Hook joined 3D Realms in February 2008, it "was health packs and 10 guns". http://www.quarterto...-63219-p-2.html

Quote

What I'm curious about is: before you guys got laid off, were the health regeneration and two-weapons limit implemented in the game?

"Yes. And yes, there was much argument and controversy over it, and in the end I don't think it was possible that there was a 'right' decision. People were going to argue that it was either "trying too hard to be modern" or they'd argue that it was "too old fashioned and way behind the times", so in the end I understand the decision to go to something more modern feeling since that's what today's players would understand. "


Quote

Based on people's comments here, my guess is that DNF turned out exactly how I thought it would given the way development wrapped up. My personal opinion is that the core game wasn't even close to shippable state when 3DR shut down the team, and that any resources GBX put into it should have been put into single player on the PC and aim for a great PC-only release as opposed to what we're seeing now on 3 platforms.

But due to the crazy relationships between TTWO, GBX, 3DR, and Triptych the above was likely never even an option.

Again, based solely on comments from people here, I'd say that what you see is a distorted view of what we were aiming for before the shut down. Major props to Triptych for managing to pull together what they did, but obviously with like 10 guys they weren't going to have the time/resources to really do anything but stitch together what already existed.

DNF is definitely a tough one to 'assign blame' to, because there are elements in the final version that were developed by people 10 years ago, and there are elements of it that were done by people 6 months ago. It's a patchwork of assets and code that span a decade, and the original vision keeper was not involved with the process at all AFAIK for the past year.

DNF was like a house. At one point, it was a set of blueprints and dreams, and then people started building it. And then for whatever reasons what was being built wasn't matching what the owners expected, so they tore parts of it down and started again. Repeat this over a decade.

The last couple teams then inherit a house that is done in bits and pieces, but it's too late to really start over, you have to make something that passes code and that can be sold because the builders are running out of money and time. The final team is told "Do what you can to make this pass building code, but you have no budget and no people and no time". They did the best they could given those constraints and that starting point.


This post has been edited by Mr. Tibbs: 31 January 2014 - 03:04 PM

3

User is offline   Kathy 

#14

DNF should have played into being outdated or old school. By 2006 maybe it was its only chance, but instead they decided to go via modern route.

This post has been edited by Kathy: 31 January 2014 - 02:02 PM

1

User is offline   Micky C 

  • Honored Donor

#15

Quote

in the end I don't think it was possible that there was a 'right' decision



Hahahaha. As if regen health is equally as valid as health packs in a Duke game.
1

#16

The reason why they kept failing to release this game is because they were incapable to begin with.
The simple fact that they constantly tried to copy the newest most popular fps's look, is the root of the problem!
A talented veteran dev studio, does not fucking go around copy pasting the most popular games of it's competition, it actually has a plan where they go in their direction with the game without caring what is going on in the industry at that time!
When you plan to innovate, you fucking make the game look good for what it's supposed to present during it's gameplay!
Once you decide what is your budget and how talented your team is, you build what you can and you go with it!
It's clear that none of the ever shifting teams that worked at the various versions of scrapped prealpha DNF's had the talent and ability to make a game that can compete with doom3 or what ever the best fps game was at that time.
Somebody was very arrogant or scared or maybe even both, to admit that duke nukem 3d's sequel won't be able to match the level of detail that was found in id's or epic's games.
They just refused to accept that DNF won't be as revolutionary as duke 3d was when it came out.
Their main goal was to have DNF be as revolutionary as duke 3d was back in it's day.
Sadly that will never be possible.
Aww and I still believe that Las Vegas was a poor choice, no matter if we're talking about the 2001 version or not.
To me, DNF has never EVER felt like a duke 3d sequel, no matter what trailer or screenshot I've seen of it.

Duke 3d's ambient is unique and the only way to bring it into a modern looking game, is to do something like HRP does now but with a team of highly paid highly talented professionals.
Sounds need to be kept intact and just enhanced, 2d sprites need to be turned into high poly models with high res textures, textures need to be remade into high res versions and have them respect most of the details found in the original ones.
DNF was just an fps game in las vegas with duke nukem in it... It was definitely not a Duke Nukem 3d sequel because it did not feel like one.
They did not retain the look and feel or the sound of duke 3d.

This post has been edited by Mr.Deviance: 08 February 2014 - 12:47 AM

1

User is offline   DavoX 

  • Honored Donor

#17

Are we still talking about this? :)
0

User is offline   Richard Shead 

  • "Dick Nasty"

#18

View PostMr.Deviance, on 08 February 2014 - 12:37 AM, said:

Aww and I still believe that Las Vegas was a poor choice, no matter if we're talking about the 2001 version or not.


You played the 2001 version? :)


IMO, Vegas is the ultimate playground for Mr. Nukem. Strippers, gambling, flashy architecture, the surrounding desert landscape, and the overall seedy atmosphere make Sin City the ideal setting for a Duke game. Too bad we'll now likely never see it done right in a contemporary game engine. :mellow:
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User is offline   blackharted3 

  • Resident Dufus

#19

Holy Crap these look AMAZING! Why in the world couldn't the final game be like this? It looks like a modernized 2001 version! And Vegas at night too! Damn.

Also I agree Vegas is indeed the ideal setting for Duke, whatever reasons for not featuring night-time Vegas in the final version is retarded no matter which way you slice it. Las Vegas is known for it's night- time look for gad sake!
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User is offline   Mr. Tibbs 

#20

Super minor, but here's a DNF Subway render from Chris DeSimone.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uoYV6zlNl7I/UTrb7OJ0lJI/AAAAAAAAAgo/IT-iUKkOagQ/s320/BlogPort_3d_0028.jpg

It's neat to know Interceptor has Duke multiple builds. Hopefully one day they'll surface in some form or another.
2

User is offline   Richard Shead 

  • "Dick Nasty"

#21

View PostMr. Tibbs, on 29 May 2014 - 05:55 PM, said:

Super minor, but here's a DNF Subway render from Chris DeSimone.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uoYV6zlNl7I/UTrb7OJ0lJI/AAAAAAAAAgo/IT-iUKkOagQ/s320/BlogPort_3d_0028.jpg

It's neat to know Interceptor has Duke multiple builds. Hopefully one day they'll surface in some form or another.



I thought it was Gearbox who had everything DNF-related, not Interceptor.
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User is offline   Mr. Tibbs 

#22

View PostDuke Rocks, on 29 May 2014 - 10:14 PM, said:

I thought it was Gearbox who had everything DNF-related, not Interceptor.

They both do. Gearbox owns the rights to Duke Nukem Forever and, supposedly, all future Duke releases. Interceptor has the DNF builds from when they (SDN Invest) purchased 3D Realms, but can't release them unless Gearbox gives them the go ahead. While I can't see Gearbox ever releasing them, at least with Interceptor there's a chance.

A future AAA Duke game doesn't look too bright at the moment. http://www.pcgamer.c...ioshock-series/

Quote

(Take-Two CEO Strauss Zelnick) took an opportunity to engage in one of the video game world’s favourite pastimes: sledging Duke Nukem Forever. Noting that Take-Two’s success rate is unusually high due to their careful approach to nurturing IPs, Zelnick admitted that Duke Nukem Forever was a mistake.

"We have a really high hit ratio. It's probably not realistic to believe it could be much higher than it is,” he said.

“We've had precious few flops. And at least, of the few I can think of - and I can think of a few, sadly - at least one of them was just a misguided decision on my part, which was Duke Nukem.”


Now that's specifically about DNF, not Duke Nukem as a licence but given 2K's strong relationship with Gearbox, that certainly doesn't bode well.

This post has been edited by Mr. Tibbs: 30 May 2014 - 12:52 AM

0

User is offline   Richard Shead 

  • "Dick Nasty"

#23

View PostMr. Tibbs, on 30 May 2014 - 12:39 AM, said:

They both do. Gearbox owns the rights to Duke Nukem Forever and, supposedly, all future Duke releases. Interceptor has the DNF builds from when they (SDN Invest) purchased 3D Realms, but can't release them unless Gearbox gives them the go ahead. While I can't see Gearbox ever releasing them, at least with Interceptor there's a chance.



So unless I'm missing something, you're saying that you can see Interceptor violating a legal contract between them and Gearbox? Unless Gearbox's gagging rights expire at some point, why would Interceptor do such a non-business-savvy and thing, putting them in a position to be held liable for a breach of terms? And when/where was it even confirmed that Interceptor had access to pre-release builds of DNF? I've never seen it acknowledged that anything of the sort was included in the purchase of 3DR.

Obviously, I'd love more than anything for your assessment to be accurate but it just doesn't make much sense to me. I've looked high and low and found nothing that I deemed as evidence to support the scenario you illustrated. That being said, I'm nowhere's near a legal expert....so I could be misinterpreting or overlooking some very key points.

This post has been edited by Duke Rocks: 30 May 2014 - 03:30 AM

0

User is online   Tea Monster 

  • Polymancer

#24

Cursed I tells yee, Aye, cursed!
http://uploads7.wikiart.org/images/n-c-wyeth/blind-pew.jpg
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User is offline   Commando Nukem 

  • Judge Mental

#25

View PostDuke Rocks, on 30 May 2014 - 03:30 AM, said:

So unless I'm missing something, you're saying that you can see Interceptor violating -


Nope. That's not what he said. He very clearly said they "can't release them unless Gearbox gives them the go ahead."

http://forums.duke4.net/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif
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User is online   Tea Monster 

  • Polymancer

#26

What he didn't say, but which was implied in the quote, was that we are dependent on GBX for a new Duke game, and 2K have gone on record that Duke is the last thing they will consider for a new title.

The IP is screwed.
2

User is offline   Mark 

  • Honored Donor

#27

View PostTea Monster, on 30 May 2014 - 01:59 PM, said:

The IP is screwed.

Without dinner and a movie first. ;)

This post has been edited by Mark.: 30 May 2014 - 04:45 PM

1

User is offline   Taamalus 

#28

View PostMr. Tibbs, on 30 May 2014 - 12:39 AM, said:

A future AAA Duke game doesn't look too bright at the moment. http://www.pcgamer.c...ioshock-series/

Why? If, and I quote from the article: "Noting that Take-Two's success rate is unusually high due to their careful approach to nurturing IPs, Zelnick admitted that Duke Nukem Forever was a mistake." want's nothing to do with it, it could open a selling process to those that want to move Duke Nukem forward.

This post has been edited by Hank: 30 May 2014 - 04:51 PM

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User is offline   Mr. Tibbs 

#29

View PostHank, on 30 May 2014 - 04:50 PM, said:

Why? If, and I quote from the article: "Noting that Take-Two's success rate is unusually high due to their careful approach to nurturing IPs, Zelnick admitted that Duke Nukem Forever was a mistake." want's nothing to do with it, it could open a selling process to those that want to move Duke Nukem forward.

AAA budgets are enormous. Have you noticed how many are releasing this year? That number is only going to decline. As the bets get bigger, so do the margins for success and failure.

http://www.gamesindu...a-little-insane

Quote

The saying in the industry right now is, 'If you want to sell a game for $60, to the player it has to feel like $200.'
- Adrian Chmielarz

I'm not saying we won't see another Duke game again, but a huge console retail release is looking extremely unlikely. Take-Two has an amazing relationship with Gearbox. Their currently collaborating on Borderlands and a new IP. Zelnick obviously knows Duke is a Gearbox-owned property. He didn't need to single Duke out; he could've picked on any number of 2k published games that failed to recoup development costs like The Darkness 2 or The Bureau. If Take-Two aren't going to fund a sequel, who will? I can't see Ubisoft, Activision, EA, Warner Bros, or Square-Enix touching Duke. Publishers want as close to a sure thing as possible. Who wants to bank roll a damaged property that's wholly owned by a developer?

http://www.polygon.c...-software-games

Gearbox has two new IPs (one's probably a reworking on Furious 4) in production; a Homeworld remastering and a new sequel, their publishing a Telltale Borderlands game and assisting 2K Australia with the pre-sequel, developing a Brothers in Arms sequel, and, since it's one of the most successful games out there, it's guaranteed we'll be seeing Borderlands 3 in a few years. Really, the only Duke related thing I can see is them doing selling the licence.

This post has been edited by Mr. Tibbs: 30 May 2014 - 05:40 PM

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User is offline   Taamalus 

#30

Prolly sound off-topic, but money is not limited to the US, the biggest bank is actually in China; nor are gaming developers only found in Japan and the US.

But my english truly sucks, so I say it differently: If Take Two had enough and won't hear anything about a Duke sequel, then Gearbox would be motivated to sell it. Who ever buys it, would understand the risks but also have enough guts and imagination to move Duke forwards. ;) I see a bright future for Duke! :dukecigar::dukecigar:
1

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