[Raziel]

Hi all

I returned from the mana bar not too long ago... so I guess I'm just going to put my thoughts on the game here and some of the things that came out of my discussions with Randy and one of the marketing guys. There are also no surprises, it's the same demo as the one we've seen at PAX etc.

So anyway, about the game, overall I loved it. But it's not perfect...

The good:
* Feels like a rock solid FPS
* The AI seemed quite competent
* Duke's presence is quite strong in the game
* Lots of Duke speech (though it was so loud in the bar you couldn't actually hear what he says)
* Uses lots of graphical techniques like depth of field (although, see my comment in the bad stuff section since I'm coming back to this one).
* Very interactive... pretty much anything you see you can interact with. There is even a giant shit floating in one of the toilets, you can pick it up, carry it around and throw it at stuff
* The game is fun, and yes, it is definitely Duke... To me, this is the most important point, having played it, I do think this game will be awesome.

The bad:
* The biggest thing that bothers me is that the game content is noticeably dated. They're mainly relying on techniques like depth of field to hide it a bit, but when you're playing the game on a 40 inch screen up close, it really stands out to the point where it was quite painful to watch. While I wouldn't call it a show stopper, the game content doesn't look like something actually intended for release in 2011.
* The interactivity is very limited... For example: You can take a turd out of the toilet, but once you have it, it doesn't actually do much, if you throw it at something or someone, there's no splash or shit mark or anything, it just drops to the floor and leaves a stain there. Also, you can't take the white-board markers away from the white board and draw on the wall for example... so in many ways it's interactivity is quite localized. Having said that, I have not seen this level of interactivity since Duke 3D .
* Extremely trigger driven... The game relies on you doing very specific things to continue the game. For example, I killed all the pigs on the second demo level and was just wondering around the level for a few minutes with nowhere to go and nothing to shoot. It's not all that obvious that you have to choose to 'use' the machine gun mounted to the floor to actually continue playing the game...
* The shadows are really grainy, I suspect they're using basic shadow mapping here

While not really gripes with the game itself, there were some other small annoyances as well:
* The game crashed on two different machines in the time I was there. While I'm sure they'll fix that by the time it ships, it does cause me to raise an eyebrow if it crashes even on their 'model' hardware...
* We had to play with game pads... Don't get me wrong, I love my 360, but an FPS needs to be played with a keyboard and mouse, a gamepad just doesn't cut it.
* No photos... no video is one thing, but at the mana bar we weren't even allowed to take photos. I've been told the mana bar's facebook page will host all the photos the staff took there though, which includes several shots of me for the ladies. Their facebook page is at: http://www.facebook.com/TheManaBar
* It was really really packed in there... the mana bar is not exactly big (about the size of my bedroom). Try fitting about a hundred people in your bedroom and you'll see the problem...

Now, I also got to talk to Randy and one of the T2 marketing guys, and essentially these are the main points:
* Randy doesn't know when they want to get the demo out, but they will announce it soon
* The guy from marketing thinks they will do it really close to the game's release in 2011 - which kinda sux considering they have a demo ready to go
* The February 1st release date is something amazon and co decided on by themselves but they are still targeting an early 2011 release.
* We can apparently expect the game to ship within the first half of 2011.
* When asking the guy from marketing about PlayStation move support, the answer I got was "I hope not!" - which isn't what I wanted to hear but that's how it is. I probably should have asked Randy the same question, but I forgot . If the answer was yes, at least I'd know which console to pre-order for.

So overall I really enjoyed it, I think it will be a good game despite some flaws. Also, I got two free t-shirts, so that's kinda cool .


Raz.

[Kathy]

Raziel, on Oct 16 2010, 03:57 PM, said:

* The interactivity is very limited... For example: You can take a turd out of the toilet, but once you have it, it doesn't actually do much, if you throw it at something or someone, there's no splash or shit mark or anything, it just drops to the floor and leaves a stain there.

That's disappointing...

P.S. Also, there is a topic about mana bar. You should have written there.

[Raziel]

Lotan, on Oct 16 2010, 04:19 AM, said:

P.S. Also, there is a topic about mana bar. You should have written there.

If Yatta wants to, I don't mind if he moves this thread into that one.

[X-Vector]

Unfortunately this is not unlike the other demo write-ups I've read so far and it reminds me of the "useless" vs. "useful" interactivity discussion back in the days.
Will DNF be another Max Payne, in the sense that there are things to fiddle with but no freedom to the gameworld?

[Raziel]

X-Vector, on Oct 16 2010, 04:30 AM, said:

Unfortunately this is not unlike the other demo write-ups I've read so far and it reminds me of the "useless" vs. "useful" interactivity discussion back in the days.
Will DNF be another Max Payne, in the sense that there are things to fiddle with but no freedom to the gameworld?

Well, in terms of interactivity, there is a lot there... but it's all tiny, bite-sized interactive demos that does its one cool trick but little else. They don't really seem to affect the game in other ways. Like I think it would have been cool if you could throw the turd at enemies and have them do some grossed out facial expressions or something. Or throw it at the EDF officer and have him say 'what is your problem' or something like that.

What I saw in the demo, other than the white board was:
* Peeing in toilet
* Peeing in urinal
* Flushing toilets
* Turning taps of sink on and off
* Turning taps on shower on and off
* There is also a water fountain you can use where he tilts his head to drink before the water comes out
* Picking up turd out of the toilet (but as noted earlier, you can't do much with it)
* Can drink beers when you find them... they make the screen go blurry and stuff...


Raz.

[Micky C]

Does it really look that dated?

[Betelgeuse]

Thanks for sharing, sounds like it would have been fun.

Raziel said:

The biggest thing that bothers me is that the game content is noticeably dated. They're mainly relying on techniques like depth of field to hide it a bit, but when you're playing the game on a 40 inch screen up close, it really stands out to the point where it was quite painful to watch. While I wouldn't call it a show stopper, the game content doesn't look like something actually intended for release in 2011.

I am not so worried about this, as i have come to just expect the graphics to not look so great.

Quote

Extremely trigger driven... The game relies on you doing very specific things to continue the game. For example, I killed all the pigs on the second demo level and was just wondering around the level for a few minutes with nowhere to go and nothing to shoot. It's not all that obvious that you have to choose to 'use' the machine gun mounted to the floor to actually continue playing the game...

This on the other hand does worry me a bit, but at least it gave you the option to explore, rather than triggering the end scene once you had killed said pigcops.

Hopefully these are things Gearbox will take time to polish over the coming months (but im not going to hold my breath.)

Quote

* Very interactive... pretty much anything you see you can interact with. There is even a giant shit floating in one of the toilets, you can pick it up, carry it around and throw it at stuff

I first heard about this on gearbox forums from some random member who said he got to play it... I think a lot of people thought the guy was just trolling (including me) lol.. guess not.

Quote

Also, you can't take the white-board markers away from the white board and draw on the wall for example... so in many ways it's interactivity is quite localized. Having said that, I have not seen this level of interactivity since Duke 3D

That sounds cool!

Quote

* The game is fun, and yes, it is definitely Duke... To me, this is the most important point, having played it, I do think this game will be awesome.

I like hearing/reading this. My inner duketard says "HAIL TO THE KING, BABY!" and "ALWAYS BET ON DUKE!"

[Raziel]

Micky C, on Oct 16 2010, 06:01 AM, said:

Does it really look that dated?

Unfortunately it does a bit... it's not the visual effects though, those are top notch. Even the monsters look pretty good. The problem is the levels. I guess they could rework them so they look really amazing, but I'm not sure that's gonna happen within the next few months.

[JamesCassidy]

Raziel, on Oct 16 2010, 03:57 AM, said:

The bad:
* The biggest thing that bothers me is that the game content is noticeably dated. They're mainly relying on techniques like depth of field to hide it a bit, but when you're playing the game on a 40 inch screen up close, it really stands out to the point where it was quite painful to watch. While I wouldn't call it a show stopper, the game content doesn't look like something actually intended for release in 2011.

Doesn't bother me too much. When I play a game, the important stuff to me goes in this order.

Story > gameplay > graphics > multiplayer and what ever is left I missed.

If the story is awesome and the gameplay is top notch, then a few minor graphic problems is not going to bother me much. Plus chances are, the demo is old. They are polishing it as we speak and it may even be better looking than what you have played. A lot can happen in 9 months.

Quote

* The interactivity is very limited... For example: You can take a turd out of the toilet, but once you have it, it doesn't actually do much, if you throw it at something or someone, there's no splash or shit mark or anything, it just drops to the floor and leaves a stain there. Also, you can't take the white-board markers away from the white board and draw on the wall for example... so in many ways it's interactivity is quite localized. Having said that, I have not seen this level of interactivity since Duke 3D .

Chances are the splash or shit mark was not finished yet by the time the demo was made. Again I am going to wait for the final version. Also speaking, the interactivity seems to be more interactive than most games right now. How many games do you know of where you can pick up shit from a toilet? None actually. The interactivity is well above most games now.

Quote

* Extremely trigger driven... The game relies on you doing very specific things to continue the game. For example, I killed all the pigs on the second demo level and was just wondering around the level for a few minutes with nowhere to go and nothing to shoot. It's not all that obvious that you have to choose to 'use' the machine gun mounted to the floor to actually continue playing the game...

Again, it might just be the demo and not the final game. Demos are usually scrunches of the game into one packet. Hopefully this is corrected in the final version.

Raziel, on Oct 16 2010, 03:57 AM, said:

* We had to play with game pads... Don't get me wrong, I love my 360, but an FPS needs to be played with a keyboard and mouse, a gamepad just doesn't cut it.

I have to disagree on this one. I have played FPS on a mouse and keyboard like Wolfenstein 3D Mac OS and Counter Strike, but a game pad is not bad. I think it does cut and I can use a game pad just as effectively as a mouse and keyboard.

That, plus the fact that I can lay down and comfortably play games on a game pad. Not so well with a mouse and keyboard. I have to sit straight up for that in an uncomfortable chair.

Quote

* The shadows are really grainy, I suspect they're using basic shadow mapping here

Can't have it all. It won't bother me. Like I said, a few minor graphic problems or outdated is okay by me if the game is fun. Graphics aren't everything.

Thank Raz for keeping us in the loop. Hopefully, the we get to play the demo soon.

[Daedolon]

Raziel, on Oct 16 2010, 02:57 PM, said:

* Extremely trigger driven...

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but Duke Nukem 3D is full of triggers.

[X-Vector]

Raziel, on Oct 16 2010, 01:57 PM, said:

Having said that, I have not seen this level of interactivity since Duke 3D .

Seems I glossed over this one; are you suggesting Duke Nukem 3D is still the high point in interactivity?
Haven't you played games like System Shock (2) and Deus Ex?

Quote

Well, in terms of interactivity, there is a lot there... but it's all tiny, bite-sized interactive demos that does its one cool trick but little else. They don't really seem to affect the game in other ways. Like I think it would have been cool if you could throw the turd at enemies and have them do some grossed out facial expressions or something. Or throw it at the EDF officer and have him say 'what is your problem' or something like that.

That (and more) is exactly what I expected from DNF; even a '97 game like Jedi Knight has NPC's react when you bump into them or hurt them (which causes your character to move towards dark side affiliation if you do it repeatedly).
Definitely looks more like Max Payne than Deus Ex style interactivity to me, at least as far as the demo is concerned.

[DavoX]

guys, remember that the desert level shown in the demo is just a small part of the level 15. you're going to have to find fuel cans all over the map to refuel the truck, etc.

[MusicallyInspired]

I've never cared that the graphics look dated. I've already accepted this.

[Raziel]

DavoX, on Oct 16 2010, 08:05 AM, said:

guys, remember that the desert level shown in the demo is just a small part of the level 15. you're going to have to find fuel cans all over the map to refuel the truck, etc.

I don't recall anyone saying the maps in the demo are the complete maps ?

I would seriously hope the maps are bigger than that otherwise this is going to be clockable in about 4 hours if we work on 40 maps since most people took around 12 minutes to finish the two demo maps. So yes, I would have to agree that these maps are not the complete maps. I suspect level 1 is also bigger since it ends at Duke's mansion, I'm sure they would want you explore his dwelling before the shit hits the fan and the aliens return, so there should be more to it.

Either way, the demo was fun as hell... can't wait till it ships.

[bullerbullerseven]

no matter how dated the graphic looks in duke nukem 3d, it will always be one of my favorite games.

Daedolon, on Oct 16 2010, 03:59 PM, said:

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but Duke Nukem 3D is full of triggers.

i dont think you understood what he wrote. not everyone loves using a mounted machine gun. i actually hate such stuff :S i would probably not use such a thing if there wasnt a reason to do so
its like those user maps where you just CANT find the fucking crack in the wall because it has the exacly same color -.- but im pretty sure that there is more to that machine gun than he just said in that post

[Outtagum]

There's a chance that was purposefully done for the demo so it could end a certain way.

[Stabs]

Iam pretty sure the only thing i would want to do with a turd in my hands is throw it away, what did you expect duke to take a bite?

[OpenMaw]

DanM, on Oct 17 2010, 01:26 PM, said:

Iam pretty sure the only thing i would want to do with a turd in my hands is throw it away, what did you expect duke to take a bite?

Full body awareness... Duke can eat shit and die!

First game with POV barfing. YES! DNF IS A TRIUMPH!

[ferran275]

DanM, on Oct 17 2010, 12:26 PM, said:

Iam pretty sure the only thing i would want to do with a turd in my hands is throw it away, what did you expect duke to take a bite?

haha...

but seriously, I'll bet ANYTHING that if you throw it at one of the EDF guys they at least say something, maybe you didn't hear it? you did say it was so loud in there you couldn't even hear Duke. Either that or they just haven't added that yet, I mean come on, how hard is it to add a trigger so that when you throw shit at a soldier he reacts by saying something?

-did I just write that?

[bullerbullerseven]

ferran275, on Oct 18 2010, 02:45 AM, said:

haha...

but seriously, I'll bet ANYTHING that if you throw it at one of the EDF guys they at least say something, maybe you didn't hear it? you did say it was so loud in there you couldn't even hear Duke. Either that or they just haven't added that yet, I mean come on, how hard is it to add a trigger so that when you throw shit at a soldier he reacts by saying something?

-did I just write that?

they would probably say: i dont understand why you just did that, but if i did, i bet that guy would still have his arm

[Jobi-Wan Kenobi]

LOL, I smell a running gag there!

[Sinisterambo]

Epic Thread!

[Mr.Deviance]

Dated graphics are one thing but ugly level design is another.
If there is something that puts me off in a game, then that's ugly level design.
I'm not asking for S.T.A.L.K.E.R quality in the level design department but plain rocks and low texture flat surfaces are not cool at all...
Watching the leaked screenshots from 2009, the things that bothered me the most, were the maps. They just seemed to be done by complete amateurs.
I hoped that the leak maps were just old and wip but now after reading this and seeing the desert demo level, I kind of worry about the level quality,
I rather have a few long good looking levels, done in a smart and strategic way that requires you to run back and forth for 30 minutes in order to reach the exit, than to have lots of short linear ugly levels that take 10 minutes each to solve...

[Luther Blissett]

Deviance i bet that the desert will look plain and Las Vegas/space stations and so on will look full of details.

You know how can i make such an assumption?

Look at this



^ Desert.




^ Las Vegas

I don't want to risk too much but i ll even add that the desert will not have too many water levels and less strippers than the other city levels...but i could be wrong.



* Warning, this message can contain sarcasm*

[Jeager1999]

I Don't care. Its going to be a kick ass game. No matter what. And that means once this Cursed Game is release they will have time to make another one. Hopefully...(And I'm stretching the wire on this one) Gearbox will learn from 3DR's mistakes.

[MusicallyInspired]

They should have a level in DNF where you fight aliens at the Vasquez Rocks.

[Raziel]

ferran275, on Oct 17 2010, 05:45 PM, said:

I'll bet ANYTHING that if you throw it at one of the EDF guys they at least say something, maybe you didn't hear it? you did say it was so loud in there you couldn't even hear Duke. Either that or they just haven't added that yet, I mean come on, how hard is it to add a trigger so that when you throw shit at a soldier he reacts by saying something?

You could usually hear the NPCs talking, you just couldn't hear what they were saying... even if I'm wrong and he did say something, there was definitely no visual reaction to him getting hit with a turd. Now I dunno about you guys but I would freak if someone threw a massive turd at me.

It's possible that they just haven't added it yet, but personally speaking, if it was me demoing my game and the 'turd-functionality' was not fully implemented, I would have pulled it from the public demo until the final release. You never know, maybe it's the turd that kept crashing the game!

[blackharted]

Micky C, on Oct 16 2010, 06:01 AM, said:

Does it really look that dated?

No no and no.

Raziel, on Oct 16 2010, 04:57 AM, said:

The interactivity is very limited... For example: You can take a turd out of the toilet, but once you have it, it doesn't actually do much, if you throw it at something or someone, there's no splash or shit mark or anything, it just drops to the floor and leaves a stain there. Also, you can't take the white-board markers away from the white board and draw on the wall for example... so in many ways it's interactivity is quite localized. Having said that, I have not seen this level of interactivity since Duke 3D .

You are contradicting yourself. You first say it very interactive and that seem to change your mind.

[Martin]

On the 'date-graphics' point, from a console-gamer perspective, will we be satisfied if it looks reasonably similar to the PC version? Does it compete with other console shooters? You PC guys have been spoiled with Crysis and things. That game looks amazing.

[blackharted]

Martin, on Oct 21 2010, 10:05 AM, said:

On the 'date-graphics' point, from a console-gamer perspective, will we be satisfied if it looks reasonably similar to the PC version? Does it compete with other console shooters? You PC guys have been spoiled with Crysis and things. That game looks amazing.

But the graphics in DNF look good from a PC gamer perspective too. I really don't know how anyone can say the graphics are bad when there not. There just not.